Lady Wisdom as Co-Creator?

[Olavarria]

Read Wisdom and the goddess and Margaret Barker

Proverbs 8.22-34

22)The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.

23)Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

24)When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.

25)Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forthâ??

26)when he had not yet made earth and fields,* or the worldâ??s first bits of soil.

27)When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

28)when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep,

29)when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command,when he marked out the foundations of the earth,

30)then I was beside him, like a master worker; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,

31)rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.

32)â??And now, my children, listen to me: happy are those who keep my ways.

33)Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it.

34)Happy is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors.

[aspire]

I personally believe it to be true. But what is your point?

[Saint Sinner]

Read Wisdom and the goddess and Margaret Barker

Proverbs 8.22-34

22)The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.

23)Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

24)When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.

25)Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forthâ??

26)when he had not yet made earth and fields,* or the worldâ??s first bits of soil.

27)When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

28)when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep,

29)when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command,when he marked out the foundations of the earth,

30)then I was beside him, like a master worker; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,

31)rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.

32)â??And now, my children, listen to me: happy are those who keep my ways.

33)Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it.

34)Happy is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors.

It is not a far-fetched idea. Many pre-OT Jews sought out communion with the Feminine Divine. I think I recommended it before but the book is:

New Jewish Feminism compiled by Rabbi Dr. Elysse Goldstein

Some Christians would have you believe that it Jesus speaking in the form of YHWH. This idea doesn't fit with the historical practices of pre-Bible Jews.

Saint Sinner

[aspire]

Just checked out the book on amazon.com and it look fascinating. Here are a couple of other books along the same line; The Hebrew Goddess by Raphael Patai and Sophia Goddess of Wisdom & Bride of God by Caitin Mathews

[changed]

I personally believe it to be true.

Me too. After all we were formed "male and female" in their image... I don;t think HEavenly Father's image is that of a female

It is a pity that we do not talk about Her more in church.

[Saint Sinner]

Just checked out the book on amazon.com and it look fascinating. Here are a couple of other books along the same line; The Hebrew Goddess by Raphael Patai and Sophia Goddess of Wisdom & Bride of God by Caitin Mathews

Remember that Sophia is in fact the Goddess found within Gnosticism...unless I'm getting her confused with someone else. Raphael Patai is amazing! My Intro to Judaism professor quoted him a lot.Saint Sinner

Me too. After all we were formed "male and female" in their image... I don;t think HEavenly Father's image is that of a female ;)It is a pity that we do not talk about Her more in church.

I wish she was recognized more as well. Joseph had a vision of her with Zebedee Coltrin and Sidney Rigdon. If she is important enough to be seen in vision then she is important enough to be recognized in Sacrament Meeting. Note: this is my personal opinion.Saint Sinner

[Ron Beron]

Read Wisdom and the goddess and Margaret Barker

Proverbs 8.22-34

22)The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.

23)Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

24)When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.

25)Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forthâ??

26)when he had not yet made earth and fields,* or the world's first bits of soil.

27)When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

28)when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep,

29)when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command,when he marked out the foundations of the earth,

30)then I was beside him, like a master worker; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,

31)rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.

32)'And now, my children, listen to me: happy are those who keep my ways.

33)Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it.

34)Happy is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors.

I think you are referring to hokhma which is the hebrew equivalent to wisdom. Some have suggested that God was using a feminine guise as a mode of creation. Others, myself included have suggested that Wisdom here is actually un-created Jesus or more spectacularly a sister of Jesus',

Prov. 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his sonâ??s name, if thou canst tell?â?

In any case it is obvious God used a second to help in His creation.

[Ambrose]

[1] I myself also am a mortal man, like to all, and the offspring of him that was first made of the earth,

[2] And in my mother's womb was fashioned to be flesh in the time of ten months, being compacted in blood, of the seed of man, and the pleasure that came with sleep.

[3] And when I was born, I drew in the common air, and fell upon the earth, which is of like nature, and the first voice which I uttered was crying, as all others do.

[4] I was nursed in swaddling clothes, and that with cares.

[5] For there is no king that had any other beginning of birth.

[6] For all men have one entrance into life, and the like going out.

[7] Wherefore I prayed, and understanding was given me: I called upon God, and the spirit of wisdom came to me.

[8] I preferred her before sceptres and thrones, and esteemed riches nothing in comparison of her.

[9] Neither compared I unto her any precious stone, because all gold in respect of her is as a little sand, and silver shall be counted as clay before her.

[10] I loved her above health and beauty, and chose to have her instead of light: for the light that cometh from her never goeth out.

[11] All good things together came to me with her, and innumerable riches in her hands.

[12] And I rejoiced in them all, because wisdom goeth before them: and I knew not that she was the mother of them.

[13] I learned diligently, and do communicate her liberally: I do not hide her riches.

[14] For she is a treasure unto men that never faileth: which they that use become the friends of God, being commended for the gifts that come from learning.

[15] God hath granted me to speak as I would, and to conceive as is meet for the things that are given me: because it is he that leadeth unto wisdom, and directeth the wise.

[16] For in his hand are both we and our words; all wisdom also, and knowledge of workmanship.

[17] For he hath given me certain knowledge of the things that are, namely, to know how the world was made, and the operation of the elements:

[18] The beginning, ending, and midst of the times: the alterations of the turning of the sun, and the change of seasons:

[19] The circuits of years, and the positions of stars:

[20] The natures of living creatures, and the furies of wild beasts: the violence of winds, and the reasonings of men: the diversities of plants and the virtues of roots:

[21] And all such things as are either secret or manifest, them I know.

[22] For wisdom, which is the worker of all things, taught me: for in her is an understanding spirit holy, one only, manifold, subtil, lively, clear, undefiled, plain, not subject to hurt, loving the thing that is good quick, which cannot be letted, ready to do good,

[23] Kind to man, steadfast, sure, free from care, having all power, overseeing all things, and going through all understanding, pure, and most subtil, spirits.

[24] For wisdom is more moving than any motion: she passeth and goeth through all things by reason of her pureness.

[25] For she is the breath of the power of God, and a pure influence flowing from the glory of the Almighty: therefore can no defiled thing fall into her.

[26] For she is the brightness of the everlasting light, the unspotted mirror of the power of God, and the image of his goodness.

[27] And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself, she maketh all things new: and in all ages entering into holy souls, she maketh them friends of God, and prophets.

[28] For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom.

[29] For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it.

[30] For after this cometh night: but vice shall not prevail against wisdom.

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Wis.8

[1] Wisdom reacheth from one end to another mightily: and sweetly doth she order all things.

[2] I loved her, and sought her out from my youth, I desired to make her my spouse, and I was a lover of her beauty.

[3] In that she is conversant with God, she magnifieth her nobility: yea, the Lord of all things himself loved her.

[4] For she is privy to the mysteries of the knowledge of God, and a lover of his works.

[5] If riches be a possession to be desired in this life; what is richer than wisdom, that worketh all things?

[6] And if prudence work; who of all that are is a more cunning workman than she?

[7] And if a man love righteousness her labours are virtues: for she teacheth temperance and prudence, justice and fortitude: which are such things, as en can have nothing more profitable in their life.

[8] If a man desire much experience, she knoweth things of old, and conjectureth aright what is to come: she knoweth the subtilties of speeches, and can expound dark sentences: she foreseeth signs and wonders, and the events of seasons and times.

[9] Therefore I purposed to take her to me to live with me, knowing that she would be a counsellor of good things, and a comfort in cares and grief.

[10] For her sake I shall have estimation among the multitude, and honour with the elders, though I be young.

[11] I shall be found of a quick conceit in judgment, and shall be admired in the sight of great men.

[12] When I hold my tongue, they shall bide my leisure, and when I speak, they shall give good ear unto me: if I talk much, they shall lay their hands upon their mouth.

[13] Moreover by the means of her I shall obtain immortality, and leave behind me an everlasting memorial to them that come after me.

[14] I shall set the people in order, and the nations shall be subject unto me.

[15] Horrible tyrants shall be afraid, when they do but hear of me; I shall be found good among the multitude, and valiant in war.

[16] After I am come into mine house, I will repose myself with her: for her conversation hath no bitterness; and to live with her hath no sorrow, but mirth and joy.

[17] Now when I considered these things in myself, and pondered them in my heart, how that to be allied unto wisdom is immortality;

[18] And great pleasure it is to have her friendship; and in the works of her hands are infinite riches; and in the exercise of conference with her, prudence; and in talking with her, a good report; I went about seeking how to take her to me.

[19] For I was a witty child, and had a good spirit.

[20] Yea rather, being good, I came into a body undefiled.

[21] Nevertheless, when I perceived that I could not otherwise obtain her, except God gave her me; and that was a point of wisdom also to know whose gift she was; I prayed unto the Lord, and besought him, and with my whole heart I said,

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Wis.9

[1] O God of my fathers, and Lord of mercy, who hast made all things with thy word,

[2] And ordained man through thy wisdom, that he should have dominion over the creatures which thou hast made,

[3] And order the world according to equity and righteousness, and execute judgment with an upright heart:

[4] Give me wisdom, that sitteth by thy throne; and reject me not from among thy children:

[5] For I thy servant and son of thine handmaid am a feeble person, and of a short time, and too young for the understanding of judgment and laws.

[6] For though a man be never so perfect among the children of men, yet if thy wisdom be not with him, he shall be nothing regarded.

[7] Thou hast chosen me to be a king of thy people, and a judge of thy sons and daughters:

[8] Thou hast commanded me to build a temple upon thy holy mount, and an altar in the city wherein thou dwellest, a resemblance of the holy tabernacle, which thou hast prepared from the beginning.

[9] And wisdom was with thee: which knoweth thy works, and was present when thou madest the world, and knew what was acceptable in thy sight, and right in thy commandments.

[10] O send her out of thy holy heavens, and from the throne of thy glory, that being present she may labour with me, that I may know what is pleasing unto thee.

[11] For she knoweth and understandeth all things, and she shall lead me soberly in my doings, and preserve me in her power.

[12] So shall my works be acceptable, and then shall I judge thy people righteously, and be worthy to sit in my father's seat.

[13] For what man is he that can know the counsel of God? or who can think what the will of the Lord is?

[14] For the thoughts of mortal men are miserable, and our devices are but uncertain.

[15] For the corruptible body presseth down the soul, and the earthy tabernacle weigheth down the mind that museth upon many things.

[16] And hardly do we guess aright at things that are upon earth, and with labour do we find the things that are before us: but the things that are in heaven who hath searched out?

[17] And thy counsel who hath known, except thou give wisdom, and send thy Holy Spirit from above?

[18] For so the ways of them which lived on the earth were reformed, and men were taught the things that are pleasing unto thee, and were saved through wisdom.

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Wis.10

[1] She preserved the first formed father of the world, that was created alone, and brought him out of his fall,

[2] And gave him power to rule all things.

[3] But when the unrighteous went away from her in his anger, he perished also in the fury wherewith he murdered his brother.

[4] For whose cause the earth being drowned with the flood, wisdom again preserved it, and directed the course of the righteous in a piece of wood of small value.

[5] Moreover, the nations in their wicked conspiracy being confounded, she found out the righteous, and preserved him blameless unto God, and kept him strong against his tender compassion toward his son.

[6] When the ungodly perished, she delivered the righteous man, who fled from the fire which fell down upon the five cities.

[7] Of whose wickedness even to this day the waste land that smoketh is a testimony, and plants bearing fruit that never come to ripeness: and a standing pillar of salt is a monument of an unbelieving soul.

[8] For regarding not wisdom, they gat not only this hurt, that they knew not the things which were good; but also left behind them to the world a memorial of their foolishness: so that in the things wherein they offended they could not so much as be hid.

[9] Rut wisdom delivered from pain those that attended upon her.

[10] When the righteous fled from his brother's wrath she guided him in right paths, shewed him the kingdom of God, and gave him knowledge of holy things, made him rich in his travels, and multiplied the fruit of his labours.

[11] In the covetousness of such as oppressed him she stood by him, and made him rich.

[12] She defended him from his enemies, and kept him safe from those that lay in wait, and in a sore conflict she gave him the victory; that he might know that goodness is stronger than all.

[13] When the righteous was sold, she forsook him not, but delivered him from sin: she went down with him into the pit,

[14] And left him not in bonds, till she brought him the sceptre of the kingdom, and power against those that oppressed him: as for them that had accused him, she shewed them to be liars, and gave him perpetual glory.

[15] She delivered the righteous people and blameless seed from the nation that oppressed them.

[16] She entered into the soul of the servant of the Lord, and withstood dreadful kings in wonders and signs;

[17] Rendered to the righteous a reward of their labours, guided them in a marvellous way, and was unto them for a cover by day, and a light of stars in the night season;

[18] Brought them through the Red sea, and led them through much water:

[19] But she drowned their enemies, and cast them up out of the bottom of the deep.

[20] Therefore the righteous spoiled the ungodly, and praised thy holy name, O Lord, and magnified with one accord thine hand, that fought for them.

[21] For wisdom opened the mouth of the dumb, and made the tongues of them that cannot speak eloquent.

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Wis.11

[1] She prospered their works in the hand of the holy prophet.

[11] Wisdom exalteth her children, and layeth hold of them that seek her.

[12] He that loveth her loveth life; and they that seek to her early shall be filled with joy.

[13] He that holdeth her fast shall inherit glory; and wheresoever she entereth, the Lord will bless.

[14] They that serve her shall minister to the Holy One: and them that love her the Lord doth love.

[15] Whoso giveth ear unto her shall judge the nations: and he that attendeth unto her shall dwell securely.

[16] If a man commit himself unto her, he shall inherit her; and his generation shall hold her in possession.

[17] For at the first she will walk with him by crooked ways, and bring fear and dread upon him, and torment him with her discipline, until she may trust his soul, and try him by her laws.

[18] Then will she return the straight way unto him, and comfort him, and shew him her secrets.

[19] But if he go wrong, she will forsake him, and give him over to his own ruin.

[1] Wisdom shall praise herself, and shall glory in the midst of her people.

[2] In the congregation of the most High shall she open her mouth, and triumph before his power.

[3] I came out of the mouth of the most High, and covered the earth as a cloud.

[4] I dwelt in high places, and my throne is in a cloudy pillar.

[5] I alone compassed the circuit of heaven, and walked in the bottom of the deep.

[6] In the waves of the sea and in all the earth, and in every people and nation, I got a possession.

[7] With all these I sought rest: and in whose inheritance shall I abide?

[8] So the Creator of all things gave me a commandment, and he that made me caused my tabernacle to rest, and said, Let thy dwelling be in Jacob, and thine inheritance in Israel.

[9] He created me from the beginning before the world, and I shall never fail.

[10] In the holy tabernacle I served before him; and so was I established in Sion.

[11] Likewise in the beloved city he gave me rest, and in Jerusalem was my power.

[12] And I took root in an honourable people, even in the portion of the Lord's inheritance.

[13] I was exalted like a cedar in Libanus, and as a cypress tree upon the mountains of Hermon.

[14] I was exalted like a palm tree in En-gaddi, and as a rose plant in Jericho, as a fair olive tree in a pleasant field, and grew up as a plane tree by the water.

[15] I gave a sweet smell like cinnamon and aspalathus, and I yielded a pleasant odour like the best myrrh, as galbanum, and onyx, and sweet storax, and as the fume of frankincense in the tabernacle.

[16] As the turpentine tree I stretched out my branches, and my branches are the branches of honour and grace.

[17] As the vine brought I forth pleasant savour, and my flowers are the fruit of honour and riches.

[18] I am the mother of fair love, and fear, and knowledge, and holy hope: I therefore, being eternal, am given to all my children which are named of him.

[mfbukowski]

Me too. After all we were formed "male and female" in their image... I don;t think HEavenly Father's image is that of a female

It is a pity that we do not talk about Her more in church.

Hey, I don't like a bunch of rude yahoos talking about my wife, and I am sure that's the way God thinks too! Think of all the cuss words we could come up with if it was common knowledge that we had a Heavenly Mother? Fergetaboutit.

[mfbukowski]

Ambrose

Great stuff.

I wish somebody had asked me for my input on what to include in the bible, but I think I was absent that day.

[Ambrose]

Ambrose

Great stuff.

I wish somebody had asked me for my input on what to include in the bible, but I think I was absent that day.

I have been compiling a series of infodumps on CoJCoLDS Doctrine in the Deuterocanon and other texts of the Jewish Apocrypha. It has been rather illuminative and exciting. I wish I had access to my notes at the moment. Those references were just from memory and a quick Google search.

[LeSellers]

Hey, I don't like a bunch of rude yahoos talking about my wife, and I am sure that's the way God thinks too! Think of all the cuss words we could come up with if it was common knowledge that we had a Heavenly Mother?

I believe we have already seen exactly this scenario play out in pre-Joshuan Canaan.

When Lot pitched his tent with the door facing Sodom, and then entered the city itself, we see that sex had become a way of life, and the Canaanite religion centered on their temples where "sacred" prostitutes played the role of the female deity. Their function, apparently, was to demonstrate to the gods (Baal and Astoroth) what to do. The idea, called "sympathetic magic", was that the gods, seeing the prostitutes and worshippers, would copulate themselves and that would bring the rains and fertility to the land.

I am convinced that Father, having seen His post-Noachian covenant people in complete apostasy, and, worse, abusing His wife, determined to "erase" Her. When He revealed the Gospel to Abraham, He left Her out. Her memory didn't disappear, and later generations of Hebrews rediscovered Her among the people they were supposed to have destroyed (which explains the reason for the commandment in the first place), and the perversion continued sporadically, even up to Lehi's time.

Or so it seems to me.

Lehi

[aspire]

Remember that Sophia is in fact the Goddess found within Gnosticism...unless I'm getting her confused with someone else. Raphael Patai is amazing! My Intro to Judaism professor quoted him a lot.Saint SinnerI wish she was recognized more as well. Joseph had a vision of her with Zebedee Coltrin and Sidney Rigdon. If she is important enough to be seen in vision then she is important enough to be recognized in Sacrament Meeting. Note: this is my personal opinion.Saint Sinner

Sophia is the Greek for Wisdom. I far as I understand it.

The Goddess of Gnosticism is one in the same, she is an interpetation of the Devine Feminine.

Personally I believe Lady Wisdom to be very important. And I donâ??t believe the line the; She is to precious and was taken out of the scriptures. Any mother worth her salt will fight tooth and nail to be with and protect her children. A Patriarchal system cannot exist with a equal Matriarch beside it. The Devine Feminine is as powerful and the Father and unless the two are recognized we have a lopsided view of God.

I think our personal revelation about Heavenly Mother are for our own personal knowledge. And as much as some of us would like to see Her recognized in Church itâ??s not going to happen for a while, unless the mind set changes dramatically.

[Sargon]

A few tidbits from Raphael Patai (I also really enjoyed "The Hebrew Goddess"):

http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2008/08/...herah-and-more/

â??The Goddess Asherah was worshipped in Israel from the days of the first settlement in Canaan, the Hebrews having taken over the cult of this great mother goddess from the Canaanites. For public worship, the goddess was represented by carved wooden images, implanted into the ground, usually next to an altar dedicated to the god Baal, and located under hilltops, under leafy trees. For private worship, innumerable small clay figurines of Asherah were in circulation, showing the goddess in the nude, with the characteristic gesture of holding her own breasts in emphasis of her fertility aspect.â? (pg. 45)

â??Thus is appears that, of the 370 years during which the Solomonic Temple stood in Jerusalem, for no less than 236 years (or almost two-thirds of the time) the statue of Asherah was present in the Temple, and her worship was a part of the legitimate religion approved and led by the king, the court, and the priesthood and opposed by only a few prophetic voices crying out against it at relatively long intervals.â? (pg. 50)

â??In the eyes of the Yahwists, to whom belonged a few of the kings and all of the prophets, the worship of Asherah was an abomination. It had to be, because it was a cult accepted by the Hebrews from the Canaanite neighbors, and any and all manifestations of Canaanite religion were for them anathema.â? (pg. 52)

[volgadon]

Just checked out the book on amazon.com and it look fascinating. Here are a couple of other books along the same line; The Hebrew Goddess by Raphael Patai and Sophia Goddess of Wisdom & Bride of God by Caitin Mathews

Except that Patai is far too Gravesian.

[mfbukowski]

I believe we have already seen exactly this scenario play out in pre-Joshuan Canaan. ...

I am convinced that Father, having seen His post-Noachian covenant people in complete apostasy, and, worse, abusing His wife, determined to "erase" Her. When He revealed the Gospel to Abraham, He left Her out.

[volgadon]

Sophia is the Greek for Wisdom. I far as I understand it.

The Goddess of Gnosticism is one in the same, she is an interpetation of the Devine Feminine.

Personally I believe Lady Wisdom to be very important. And I donâ??t believe the line the; She is to precious and was taken out of the scriptures. Any mother worth her salt will fight tooth and nail to be with and protect her children. A Patriarchal system cannot exist with a equal Matriarch beside it. The Devine Feminine is as powerful and the Father and unless the two are recognized we have a lopsided view of God.

I think our personal revelation about Heavenly Mother are for our own personal knowledge. And as much as some of us would like to see Her recognized in Church itâ??s not going to happen for a while, unless the mind set changes dramatically.

I don't think we are ment to be worshipping her, that's why.

[Saint Sinner]

I don't think we are ment to be worshipping her, that's why.

Right...because that would give the Anti-Mos firepower to call LDS polytheistic. I don't buy this one bit and I don't mean for it to sound like this is your intention. Just some speculation.

Saint Sinner

[volgadon]

Nothing whatsoever to do with anti-Mormons. I couldn't care less what they think as they will think the worst anyway.

What is sister Monson's position in church leadership and administration?

[aspire]

Nothing whatsoever to do with anti-Mormons. I couldn't care less what they think as they will think the worst anyway.

What is sister Monson's position in church leadership and administration?

You hit the nail on the head. My quote: â??A Patriarchal system cannot exist with a equal Matriarch beside it.â? For now the Church leadership and administration is Patriarchal. It is not my place to suggest that is should be anything but what it is.

[BCSpace]

22)The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.

Are we saying God created his own wife?

[Ambrose]

Are we saying God created his own wife?

[Olavarria]

Are we saying God created his own wife?

Im not, but the writer of Proverbs may have believed that. Or he may have seen Lady Wisdom as God's daughter.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Her Amun,

I do not agree with the translation - particularly in verse 30, where I do not believe 'amon should be rendered "master worker" (or artisan) but rather a young child.

The passage deals with the lifecycle of wisdom, described in very human terms.

So, were I to translate the passage, I would translate it something like this:

22: God created* me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.

23: Ages ago, I was poured out** at the first, before the beginning of the earth

24: When there was no depths, I was born, when there were no springs abounding with water.

25: Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was born -

26: when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world's first bits of soil.

27: when he established the heavens, there I was, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

28: when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep,

29: when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundation of the earth,

30: then I was a child*** beside him, and I was his delight, playing constantly before him,

31: playing in the land (which God created), and delighting in mankind.

* or "engendered"

** this is a technical term for insemination (although it has also been used to describe the fluid accompanying birth - the water of the womb)

*** or "nurseling"

Ben M.

[Olavarria]

Her Amun,

I do not agree with the translation - particularly in verse 30, where I do not believe 'amon should be rendered "master worker" (or artisan) but rather a young child.

The passage deals with the lifecycle of wisdom, described in very human terms.

So, were I to translate the passage, I would translate it something like this:

22: God created* me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.

23: Ages ago, I was poured out** at the first, before the beginning of the earth

24: When there was no depths, I was born, when there were no springs abounding with water.

25: Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was born -

26: when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world's first bits of soil.

27: when he established the heavens, there I was, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

28: when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep,

29: when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundation of the earth,

30: then I was a child*** beside him, and I was his delight, playing constantly before him,

31: playing in the land (which God created), and delighting in mankind.

* or "engendered"

** this is a technical term for insemination (although it has also been used to describe the fluid accompanying birth - the water of the womb)

*** or "nurseling"

Ben M.

Nice