Olavarria Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 One of the biggest mistakes people make when reading the Book of Mormon is forgetting that it is the translation of an ancient record, written by Semites and their descendants. Often times, modern readers impose their own modern, western paradigms on an ancient text thus masking the original meaning of the text. An example of this are verses in the Book of Mormon which have traditionally been interpreted as explanations for the darker skin pigmentation of certain ethnic groups. The following four Book of Mormon verses make reference to the Lamanites, with the fourth verse referring to Lamanites who became converted to the true Faith of God:2 Ne. 5: 2121) And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.Jacob 3:8-9 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.9) Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.Alma 3:66) And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.3 Ne. 2: 1515) And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;When studying the meaning of these verses, the question we should be asking ourselves is: What did these references to "black" and "white" mean to ancient Semetic people? What do these references to color mean in other Semetic religious texts?There are many examples of Semetic religious texts that make reference to blackness and whiteness, some of which can be found in John A. Tvedtnes's "The Charge of 'Racism' in the Book of Mormon"(1). For this post, I will only use one text: The Quran. I will answer the question: What do these references to color mean in other Semetic religious texts?The Quran is a valuable resource when studying this question because, like the Book of Mormon, The Quran is a religious text and it's verses were originally given to mankind through a Semetic medium. Nephi, Mormon, Jacob and Mohammed were all Semites and claimed divine inspiration when revealing their verses to their respective audiences. Mohammed was an Arabian;Nephi spent years of his life traveling through Arabia and Jacob was born in Arabia(4). So there is sufficient relationship between the text of The Quran and The Book of Mormon with which to make a comparison. The following are verses from The Quran:Surah 3:106-107106)On the Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection) when some faces will become white and some faces will become black; as for those whose faces will become black (to them will be said): "Did you reject Faith after accepting it? Then Taste the torment (in Hell) for rejecting Faith." 107) And for those whose faces will become white, they will be in Allah's Mercy(Paradise), therein they shall dwell forever.Surah 39:60And on the Day of Resurrection you will see those who lied against Allah (i.e. attributed to Him sons, partners) - their faces will be black. Is there not in Hell an abode for the arrogant?It is understood that these verses in the Quran do not refer to skin pigmentation; but rather refer to the spiritual condition of human beings, their standing before God(3). These verses also have alternate English translations, with "white" and "black" being rendered as "bright" and "dark"(3). In the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 30:6 had the phrase "white and delightsome people"; whereas in the 1840 edition of the Book of Mormon, the Prophet Joseph Smith changed the expression to "pure and delightsome"(1).I submit that when Nephi, Jacob and Mormon were referring to the blackness of Lamanite skin, they were not referring to some actual change in skin pigmentation. They were referring to the spiritual darkness of people who rebel against God.Sources1)http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=15&num=2&id=5082) Translation of the meanings of The Noble Qur'an In The English Language by Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan. King Fahd Complex For The Printing of The Holy Qur'an. Madinah, K.S.A.3) http://islamicstudies.info/maarif/4)1Nephi 18:7,
Ray Agostini Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Don't you get tired of these old, outdated, post-modernist arguments?5 Now the heads of the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins, and also their armor, which was girded about them, and their bows, and their arrows, and their stones, and their slings, and so forth. 6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.I assume, according to your reasoning, that verse five is "metaphorical"?
cinepro Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 When studying the meaning of these verses, the question we should be asking ourselves is: What did these references to "black" and "white" mean to ancient Semetic people? What do these references to color mean in other Semetic religious texts?There are many examples of Semetic religious texts that make reference to blackness and whiteness, some of which can be found in John A. Tvedtnes's "The Charge of 'Racism' in the Book of Mormon"(1). For this post, I will only use one text: The Quran. I will answer the question: What do these references to color mean in other Semetic religious texts?The Quran is a valuable resource when studying this question because, like the Book of Mormon, The Quran is a religious text and it's verses were originally given to mankind through a Semetic medium. Nephi, Mormon, Jacob and Mohammed were all Semites and claimed divine inspiration when revealing their verses to their respective audiences. Mohammed was an Arabian;Nephi spent years of his life traveling through Arabia and Jacob was born in Arabia(4). So there is sufficient relationship between the text of The Quran and The Book of Mormon with which to make a comparison. The following are verses from The Quran:Do you know of any ancient Semitic texts that indicate that God will cause a metaphor to come upon certain people, and by seeing that metaphor other groups of people will know not to intermarry with them?And do you know of any modern Muslim groups that consider their leaders inspired translators of scripture, and those same leaders almost exclusively interpret those verses as faces literally turning the color black, with only a small, unofficial cadre of scholars promoting their alternate theory on the internet, with absolutely no visibility in official Muslim published sources?That would be an interesting comparison!It truly would be awesome for the Church to move away from the idea that Native Americans and Polynesians have darker skin because of the Book of Mormon curse, and I fully support your efforts in that regard. I just think you have a long road ahead of you unless you can come up with a better explanation for how a metaphor can help people avoid intermarriage.
Mormon Vader Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 If you're right, Her Amun, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. Allow me to illustrate:By changing the meaning of skin of blackness to be spiritual or metaphorical, you cut the legs right out from under many prophets and apostles that taught just the opposite.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 If you're right, Her Amun, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. Allow me to illustrate:By changing the meaning of skin of blackness to be spiritual or metaphorical, you cut the legs right out from under many prophets and apostles that taught just the opposite.Yeah, because we all know that, immediately upon being called to be a prophet, a man becomes omniscent in every regard....
cinepro Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Yeah, because we all know that, immediately upon being called to be a prophet, a man becomes omniscent in every regard....You don't have to be omniscent to get the meaning of the Lamanite curse right.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 You don't have to be omniscent to get the meaning of the Lamanite curse right. The meaning or the mechanics? I suspect there's a huge gulf of importance between those two things.
Gordon Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 And the skins of the Lamanites were darkSo, according to you, the curse is a curse of spiritual darkness, right? Does that mean that the Holy Spirit resides in the skin, then?
Ray Agostini Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 The real problem with this whole post-modernist concept is that if it is admitted that "blackness" really refers to skin colour, it would offend a sizeable portion of reasonable people today. So instead of admitting that it was literal, the PC intrepretation is obviously the better alternative, given the "realities" of the modern world. So I see this as nothing more than a PC exercise. The problem is, that to concede this would be to admit that the Book of Mormon was contemporary commentary and 19th century understanding. We cannot have that. Equating a "dark skin" with iniquity is so archaic and pseudepigraphic, especially in light of modern science, that it borders on offensive. So the post-modernist get to work to "bring the interpretations up to date". Admitting that the BoM is pseudepigrapha is - unthinkable. In a very ironic way, the arguments against literalism and accepting it all as "metaphor" is an admission that the BoM cannot be taken literally. Her Amun is essentially saying, "let's appeal to reason", because this book cannot possibly mean what it actually says!
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Do you know of any ancient Semitic texts that indicate that God will cause a metaphor to come upon certain people, and by seeing that metaphor other groups of people will know not to intermarry with them?...I just think you have a long road ahead of you unless you can come up with a better explanation for how a metaphor can help people avoid intermarriage.In the sixteenth-century texts which I use in my research, skin colour seems to have been used by European observers predominantly as a marker for perceived degrees of 'civilisation.' Thus, tribes or clans which were settled in one location, primarily fished and engaged in swidden agriculture for subsistence, and were deemed to be non agressive are described as 'white' or 'fair.' Tribes or clans on the selfsame island which wandered in the interior, sustained themselves by hunting and gathering, and engaged in headhunting were described as 'black' or 'dark.' This was true even for small islands on which a single Austronesian or even Melanesian population dwelt. Interestingly, adoption of Christianity or Islam was sufficient for the descriptions of a people to switch over to the 'fair' category, whilst tribal religion always appears as 'black.'For the Europeans, it was very easy to see the metaphor.
LifeOnaPlate Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2008/09/al...nd-book-of.html
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 The real problem with this whole post-modernist concept is that if it is admitted that "blackness" really refers to skin colour, it would offend a sizeable portion of reasonable people today. So instead of admitting that it was literal, the PC intrepretation is obviously the better alternative, given the "realities" of the modern world. So I see this as nothing more than a PC exercise.You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, Ray. In my case, though, you're dead wrong. Until the past week, I'd never before considered that colour in the Book of Mormon may have been metaphorical despite the fact that it's used that way throughout the documents I've researched as part of my PhD. It's because of that linkage that I find the concept intriguing. I have zero need to make the Book of Mormon more PC or somehow less offesnsive, being someone who has always thought that the charge of racism in the book was clear evidence that the critic making the charge had never read it considering how many times its writers overtly subvert and undercut the presumed correlation between colour and righteousness.
LifeOnaPlate Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Hamba, I'd appreciate your feedback on the blog post I linked to.
Ray Agostini Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 In the sixteenth-century texts which I use in my research, skin colour seems to have been used by European observers predominantly as a marker for perceived degrees of 'civilisation.' Thus, tribes or clans which were settled in one location, primarily fished and engaged in swidden agriculture for subsistence, and were deemed to be non agressive are described as 'white' or 'fair.' Tribes or clans on the selfsame island which wandered in the interior, sustained themselves by hunting and gathering, and engaged in headhunting were described as 'black' or 'dark.' This was true even for small islands on which a single Austronesian or even Melanesian population dwelt. Interestingly, adoption of Christianity or Islam was sufficient for the descriptions of a people to switch over to the 'fair' category, whilst tribal religion always appears as 'black.'For the Europeans, it was very easy to see the metaphor.So some Australian Aboriginies were actually "white" and "fair", and others "black" or "dark", depending on whether they were in fishing and agriculture, or "hunter gatherers". And the curse of the "skin of blackness" was "only" metaphorical. So were the "negroes" who were not "hunter gatherers" under the "curse of Cain"? Or was their skin colour and blood line the major factor in deciding whether or not they received the priesthood?
Ray Agostini Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Until the past week, I'd never before considered that colour in the Book of Mormon may have been metaphorical despite the fact that it's used that way throughout the documents I've researched as part of my PhD.Thanks for admitting that you once saw the reality, but now your post-modernist view has got the better of you. It's called "apologetics".
kamenraider Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 ...Surah 3:106-107106)On the Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection) when some faces will become white and some faces will become black; as for those whose faces will become black (to them will be said): "Did you reject Faith after accepting it? Then Taste the torment (in Hell) for rejecting Faith." 107) And for those whose faces will become white, they will be in Allah's Mercy(Paradise), therein they shall dwell forever.Surah 39:60And on the Day of Resurrection you will see those who lied against Allah (i.e. attributed to Him sons, partners) - their faces will be black. Is there not in Hell an abode for the arrogant?It is understood that these verses in the Quran do not refer to skin pigmentation; but rather refer to the spiritual condition of human beings, their standing before God(3).Maybe this actually is literal:I was on my return from Richmond, landing with a span of mares and wagon, belonging to B. Jones and on the wide prairie I saw a man walking behind me. I reined in the team to let him overtake me, and who should it be but Orson Hyde, who had apostatized in the fuss, but had seen a vision in which it was made known to him that if he did not make immediate restitution to the Quorum of the Twelve, he would be cut off and all his posterity, and that the curse of Cain would be upon him.--Journal of Allen Joseph Stout, typescript, Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, BYU, pgs. 12-13.
LifeOnaPlate Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Thanks for admitting that you once saw the reality, but now your post-modernist view has got the better of you. It's called "apologetics".Seems like you want to make this into an exercise of mocking rather than a dialog.
Ray Agostini Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Seems like you want to make this into an exercise of mocking rather than a dialog.Seems like you like making inane and ad hominem comments not pertinent to the discussion.
Thinking Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 However the word skin actually appears in the BoM verses which you quoted, but not in the verses from the Quran.2 Ne. 5:2121) And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.Jacob 3:8-9 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.9) Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.Alma 3:66) And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.3 Ne. 2: 1515) And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;...Surah 3:106-107106)On the Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection) when some faces will become white and some faces will become black; as for those whose faces will become black (to them will be said): "Did you reject Faith after accepting it? Then Taste the torment (in Hell) for rejecting Faith." 107) And for those whose faces will become white, they will be in Allah's Mercy(Paradise), therein they shall dwell forever.Surah 39:60And on the Day of Resurrection you will see those who lied against Allah (i.e. attributed to Him sons, partners) - their faces will be black. Is there not in Hell an abode for the arrogant?
Ray Agostini Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Btw, the choices have been made clear - you either accept the BoM as entire truth and history, or you reject it altogether. Don't even think of a "middle road", because that would be compromise.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Hamba, I'd appreciate your feedback on the blog post I linked to.Blair, I read your post. It seemed like a fair summary to me. There's a lot more you could add about pre-modern conceptions of race. One doesn't actually have to go very far back before the whole idea of race starts to look very alien. I've actually helped one of the researchers here with a book she's completing on the topic as it relates to the Pacific. When she's finished, it should be a good read.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 So some Australian Aboriginies were actually "white" and "fair", and others "black" or "dark", depending on whether they were in fishing and agriculture, or "hunter gatherers".I know nothing about the Aborigines of Australia, but, in case you missed it in this thread, I do have a sixteenth-century document which refers to some of the more settled tribes in New Guinea being 'white like the people in' Gujarat. So yes, that's basically how it worked.So were the "negroes" who were not "hunter gatherers" under the "curse of Cain"? Or was their skin colour and blood line the major factor in deciding whether or not they received the priesthood?I've tried to understand this question, but I'm afraid I don't.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Thanks for admitting that you once saw the reality, but now your post-modernist view has got the better of you. It's called "apologetics".Ray, if you're worried that you'll have to hate the Book of Mormon less if it doesn't quite say what you need it to, I for one am quite confident you can still muster sufficient disgust for it--and those who value it--whether some of its phrases are idioms or not.
John Larsen Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Often times, modern readers impose their own modern, western paradigms on an ancient text thus masking the original meaning of the text.Might you be doing the same thing by applying a 21st century rather than a 19th century reading? It seems that 19th century constructions of race would be more enlightening in your analysis.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 However the word skin actually appears in the BoM verses which you quoted, but not in the verses from the Quran.You're right. And in the Qur'anic verses, the word 'face' is used, it being a particular subset of a person's skin. In this case, is the point literal black and white faces? If not, then we have metonomy, which is possibly also what we have with the Book of Mormon's use of skin. Apprehending cross-cultural metaphors (especially ones like metonomy and synecdoche) is tough; just ask a non-native English speaker what s/he thought upon first encountering someone who offered, 'Can I give you a hand?'
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