Which LDS Truth Claims are Falsifiable?

[Lance in TX]

I hope this response answers your questions.

DrW, Thank you. Yes it does. I just wanted to know where you stand and where you are coming from.

[Lance in TX]

Hello Lance,

If you don't want to read anything that contradicts your faith system why don't you limit your forum activity to fellowship forums? If your here that means you want to try your hand at apologetic s.

Sleepyhead,

I have no problem reading things that contradict my faith system. I just wanted DrW to clarify where he stands and what his beliefs are. It is always good to know where people stand. He has now done that and we know where he is coming from. Underlying motives are important to understand.

[DrW]

In looking again at the drawings for the proposed Jaredite barges above, I note that this vessel has no keel or centerboard. It was designed as a barge, not a sailboat.

It reminds me of several imaginative ideas regarding Noah's ark, in that it has multiple interior decks, a nearly flat bottom and no power.

As a sailboat, this craft would be dangerously unstable, prone to rolling over, and difficult or impossible to sail upwind. To handle a sail of any size safely, this craft would need a keel and/or centerboard and substantial weight ballast (none shown).

These keel or centerboard features are relatively difficult to design and build compared to the rest of the barge as shown. For example, in my original post, I mentioned that in that time period, such keels required large cedar logs. These would have had to come from present day Lebanon or further north.

Yet there is no mention of the Jaredites being in commercial congress with any other groups of people during this land voyage. In fact, we are told that they traveled in a wilderness.

In summary, at first look, the drawings seemed ad hoc, to say the least. On further consideration, they appear to be casual imaginings of one who already believed (by faith) that the journey could be made, and either neglected to mention the (fatal) issues that his scenario could not address, or stated that they could be addressed by miraculous means.

[ttribe]

The reason I participate here is because I still have TBM family and friends and believe that it is important for them to have the opportunity for a dose of reality now and then.

This statement is a bit much...as if we, who believe in the Church's teachings, don't live in anything that resembles "reality". Please.

[DrW]

This statement is a bit much...as if we, who believe in the Church's teachings, don't live in anything that resembles "reality". Please.

ttribe,

I didn't say that TBMâ??s donâ??t live â??anything that resembles reality". What I did say was that I seek to provide a dose of reality now and then.

Here is an example relevant to this thread:

Let's say that a TBM (perhaps you, or one of my adult children for that matter) really believed that the Journey of the Jaredites was made as described, or that a Priesthood blessing could actually heal, or that children who died before the of eight would go automatically to the celestial kingdom, or any of the other faith based (instead of fact based) doctrine of the Church. (Blood atonement also comes to mind.)

Let's say that at some point, you (or one of my TBM adult children) had the opportunity to demonstrate your (their) true belief in any of these principles or doctrines by taking action based upon that belief. That is, you had the opportunity to show your faith by doing, or attempting to do, something because Church doctrine said it was right, and could be of advantage to you or those you loved, or could help build the faith of others.

For example, do you believe enough in the voyage of the Jaredites that you would load your family into boats such as were described in Ether and set off to the new world to show it could be done? Would you elect to receive a Priesthood blessing before seeking medical help in an emergency? Would you drown two of your infant children by throwing them off of a bridge so that they would be assured of inheriting the celestial kingdom? Would you execute someone who had committed a sin that required blood atonement?

Mormons in the city where I used to live actually did two of these four things based on their faith in Church doctrine. Three people died as a result.

As we have all learned from radical Islam, actions based of unfounded belief can have tragic consequences in both drastic and subtle ways. Mormons make irrational (and poor) faith based decisions every day. These range from electing to use family income to pay tithing instead of spending that money for their childrenâ??s education, to spending funds and time to deny rights to blacks, gays and women. And now and then someone even dies because of these irrational beliefs.

So, in my humble opinion, a call to think critically and make decisions based on objective facts instead of blind faith can be a valuable thing.

[ttribe]

I didn't say that TBMâ??s donâ??t live â??anything that resembles reality". What I did say was that I seek to provide a dose of reality now and then.

And I'm telling you that, by and large, your "dose" is unneeded.

Here is an example relevant to this thread:

Let's say that a TBM (perhaps you, or one of my adult children for that matter) really believed that the Journey of the Jaredites was made as described, or that a Priesthood blessing could actually heal, or that children who died before the of eight would go automatically to the celestial kingdom, or any of the other faith based (instead of fact based) doctrine of the Church. (Blood atonement also comes to mind.)

Let's say that at some point, you (or one of my TBM adult children) had the opportunity to demonstrate your (their) true belief in any of these principles or doctrines by taking action based upon that belief. That is, you had the opportunity to show your faith by doing, or attempting to do, something because Church doctrine said it was right, and could be of advantage to you or those you loved, or could help build the faith of others.

For example, do you believe enough in the voyage of the Jaredites that you would load your family into boats such as were described in Ether and set off to the new world to show it could be done?

Umm...no. Last time I checked that was a rather unique set of circumstances. Why would I try to recreate it?

Would you elect to receive a Priesthood blessing before seeking medical help in an emergency?

You mean intentionally delay medical treatment in favor of a blessing? No.

Would you drown two of your infant children by throwing them off of a bridge so that they would be assured of inheriting the celestial kingdom?

That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

Would you execute someone who had committed a sin that required blood atonement?

Another dumb one.

Mormons in the city where I used to live actually did two of these four things based on their faith in Church doctrine. Three people died as a result.

You had some dumb neighbors. People who are prone to such rashness are likely to find an excuse to act out their fantasies regardless of whether or not they focus on the Church and it's teachings. They'll find something...anything.

As we have all learned from radical Islam, actions based of unfounded belief can have tragic consequences in both drastic and subtle ways.

This isn't isolated to religion, you know.

Mormons make irrational (and poor) faith based decisions every day.

So do Catholics, scientists, and atheists (we could argue the minutiae of the word "faith" if you want, but that would be a waste of time)...it's called being a person.

These range from electing to use family income to pay tithing instead of spending that money for their childrenâ??s education,

Why does there have to be a trade-off...I'm managing to pull both together...I suspect many people are.

... to spending funds and time to deny rights to blacks,

Who's doing that?

... gays...

Nope.

and women.

Who's doing that?

And now and then someone even dies because of these irrational beliefs.

And now and then someone even dies for no apparent reason. What's your point?

So, in my humble opinion, a call to think critically and make decisions based on objective facts instead of blind faith can be a valuable thing.

And in my opinion, you are living a narcissistic fantasy if you think you are uniquely qualified to be the one issuing such a clarion call.

[Jason]

People who are prone to such rashness are likely to find an excuse to act out their fantasies regardless of whether or not they focus on the Church and it's teachings. They'll find something...anything.

Quoted for truth.

[ttribe]

Hello,

I thought of 2 more falsifiable things.

1. Tithing as observed by the church as compared to the Mosaic teachings with regards to tithing. There very different.

2. Deacons serving communion rather than the leadership. In reading the accounts of the last supper Jesus very clearly indicated that the apostles, (those who would be the leaders) were to serve the congregation.

These are not examples of "falsifiable" truth claims. You simply don't agree with the doctrines as taught by the Church. That's a very different thing than what is being discussed here.

[Lance in TX]

As we have all learned from radical Islam, actions based of unfounded belief can have tragic consequences in both drastic and subtle ways.

So you are comparing the LDS religion to radical Islam? Interesting.

Would you include the Lutheran religion in this comparison?

Would you include the Catholic religion in this comparison?

Mormons make irrational (and poor) faith based decisions every day.

So do non-Mormons.. And based on this statement of yours, I make irrational (and poor) faith based decisions every day?? Pretty mighty of you to tell me that. Can you explain what I did today that was "irrational and poor" today?

Let's see.. I went to a movie. Drove my car there and back. My daughter taught a reading lesson to a neighbor. I went to my chiropractor today because my knee was giving me problems (I have already had 3 surgeries on it in the last 14 years and throught I would try him since he did such a good job on my back). My wife took my son to his doctor because his asthma was acting up even after giving him breathing treatments. Tonight I will eat dinner and read scriptures with my family (so I can lead my family astray wth that "magical" teaching ).

These range from electing to use family income to pay tithing instead of spending that money for their childrenâ??s education,

Well.. You find that irrational. My wife does not. And neither do I. My wife is VERY educated, was a registered LVN, Graduated #1 in her class at the University of Southern California Physician Assistants School (double certified as well) over 17 years ago and is currently working on two additional degrees. She has been a stay at home mom for the last 12 years. She has raised 6 kids through all of this and is home schooling our last 2 right now. I have paid off all of her student loans and I am paying for her current schooling and my two kids to take Middle School and High School classes at BYU and I am paying tithing. You can do BOTH. She and I both feel education is important and that paying Tithing is just as important.

spending funds and time to deny rights to blacks, gays and women.

What the hell are you talking about?

Please give examples and not make sweeping accusations against your fellow LDS (as you say you are/were).

I don't remember EVER spending my funds or time to "deny rights to blacks, gays and women"... EVER.

And now and then someone even dies because of these irrational beliefs.

Please be explicit on what "irrational beliefs" that you have lists above that might cause someone to die (other than refusing medical help). And as for that one, God gave us medicine to HELP us. Refusing it is stupid and denying God's help. Priesthood blessings are AWESOME, but they should NEVER replace medicine. I have NEVER been taught to deny medicine in Church. EVER.

So, in my humble opinion, a call to think critically and make decisions based on objective facts instead of blind faith can be a valuable thing.

I will agree with your "humble opinion" that blind faith is wrong. But I feel that blind objectivness is wrong also.

Without faith and religion there are no higher laws and that can lead to actions that are not very friendly.

[DrW]

And in my opinion, you are living a narcissistic fantasy if you think you are uniquely qualified to be the one issuing such a clarion call.

As to your claim that I believe myself to be uniquely qualified; I am certainly not uniquely qualified, and do not claim to be.

There are millions of ex-Mormons and inactive Mormons out there who are highly qualified to point out the irrationality in the TBM worldview because, like me, they been there - done that.

As for my living a fantasy, please remember who relys on facts in this discission and who relies on faith.

I will try respond to the other comments when I have more time. Right now I am working to an unexpected deadline for a work product.

Have a good evening.

[Jason]

There is no point in arguing with DrW. It has become obvious that he is not interested in a dialogue - he is only interested in showing off and talking down to those he considers inferior.

[ttribe]

As to your claim that I believe myself to be uniquely qualified; I am certainly not uniquely qualified, and do not claim to be.

There are millions of ex-Mormons and inactive Mormons out there who are highly qualified to point out the irrationality in the TBM worldview because, like me, they been there - done that.

Let's be very clear about what I am saying - you give those of us still part of the Church way too little credit for our own intelligence and rationality and yourself (and "people like you" - your words) way too much.

[ERayR]

There is no point in arguing with DrW. It has become obvious that he is not interested in a dialogue - he is only interested in showing off and talking down to those he considers inferior.

You are learning. I have put DRW on permanent ignore. I got tired of his egocentric view and his overrated sense of self importance. Having learned there is no dialog only pontificating I leave it to others to practice futility and insanity with him.

[ttribe]

You are learning. I have put DRW on permanent ignore. I got tired of his egocentric view and his overrated sense of self importance. Having learned there is no dialog only pontificating I leave it to others to practice futility and insanity with him.

Everyone's got a talent...mine happens to be - beating my head against a wall.

[ERayR]

Everyone's got a talent...mine happens to be - beating my head against a wall.

I once heard that insanity was doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If you like it help yourself.

[DrW]

Let's be very clear about what I am saying - you give those of us still part of the Church way too little credit for our own intelligence and rationality and yourself (and "people like you" - your words) way too much.

There is no lack of intelligence among active Church members. I think that there is even evidence that the Mormon cohort is of above average intelligence. I never said that there was a lack of intelligence among active Mormons. And when it comes to many aspect of daily living, there is no lack of rational thinking, either.

When it comes to some aspects of daily life and most aspects of religion, then magical thinking abounds in the TBM worldview.

According to Richard Bushman in Rough Stone Rolling, Joseph Smith Jr. was a magical thinker. Bushman uses this terminology and cites ample evidence in his book to back this claim. He even states that such magical thinking was probably necessary to prepare the way for the restored gospel. I agree with Bushman on that point.

If you would like a reference to a bit of institutionalized Mormon magical thinking, please consider Boyd K. Packer's "some truths are not helpful", and "the mantle supersedes the intellect." statements.

And please don't try to "interpret" these statements for my benefit. BKP made them. He meant them. And their meaning is self evident. They constitute a 10 word magical thinking manifesto.

(That's my break. Now back to work.)

[sleepyhead]

Hello ttribe,

smacs original post>>>Cinepro promptly accused me of "baiting" critics with this comment. I did not understand his comment in the first instance, but then I saw that on another board (one decidedly unfriendly to Mormonism) he made some comments which clarified things.

In Cinepro's view (and those who agree with him), some (all?) fundamental claims of the LDS Church are falsifiable (I also suspect that Cinepro believes that some of these falsifiable claims have, in fact, been falsified).

So, putting Cinepro aside, I would like to initiate a discussion based on three questions to our critics:

1. In your view, which LDS truth claims are falsifiable?

2. In your view, which LDS truth claims have, in fact, been falsified?

3. What methodology did you employ in formulating your responses to the above two questions?

Thanks,

-Smac<<<

me>>>Hello,

I thought of 2 more falsifiable things.

1. Tithing as observed by the church as compared to the Mosaic teachings with regards to tithing. There very different.

2. Deacons serving communion rather than the leadership. In reading the accounts of the last supper Jesus very clearly indicated that the apostles, (those who would be the leaders) were to serve the congregation.<<<

you>>>These are not examples of "falsifiable" truth claims. You simply don't agree with the doctrines as taught by the Church. That's a very different thing than what is being discussed here. <<<

I would say that the two truth claims mentioned above would fall into category 1:In your view, which LDS truth claims are falsifiable? To actually falsify them involves reading the pertinent chapters in the Mosaic law concerning tithing, and the instructions given by Jesus at the last supper.

>>>You simply don't agree with the doctrines as taught by the Church. <<<

Since the instructions are plainly given in a writing which we consider to be true then it would seem to me that determining whether these writing falsified a church claim would involve looking at the related writings, rather than just saying I disagree with them.

[Lance in TX]

Everyone's got a talent...mine happens to be - beating my head against a wall.

My wife says I have the same talent.

[Pahoran]

Hello,

I thought of 2 more falsifiable things.

1. Tithing as observed by the church as compared to the Mosaic teachings with regards to tithing. There very different.

And how, exactly, does that function to falsify the Church's truth claims?

You are aware, are you not, that it is completely non-controversial Mormon doctrine, unquestioned by any plausibly orthodox Latter-day Saints, that the Law of Moses was fulfilled -- and thus came to an end -- in the Atonement?

And you are likewise aware, are you not, that tithing as a principle predates Moses by many centuries, having been practiced by Abraham?

2. Deacons serving communion rather than the leadership. In reading the accounts of the last supper Jesus very clearly indicated that the apostles, (those who would be the leaders) were to serve the congregation.

CFR, please: where exactly does Jesus say this?

Please note that you can hardly appeal to the personnel involved, since leaders of the Church made up 100% of the attendance at that Solemn Assembly.

Regards,

Pahoran

[ttribe]

Hello ttribe,

smacs original post>>>Cinepro promptly accused me of "baiting" critics with this comment. I did not understand his comment in the first instance, but then I saw that on another board (one decidedly unfriendly to Mormonism) he made some comments which clarified things.

In Cinepro's view (and those who agree with him), some (all?) fundamental claims of the LDS Church are falsifiable (I also suspect that Cinepro believes that some of these falsifiable claims have, in fact, been falsified).

So, putting Cinepro aside, I would like to initiate a discussion based on three questions to our critics:

1. In your view, which LDS truth claims are falsifiable?

2. In your view, which LDS truth claims have, in fact, been falsified?

3. What methodology did you employ in formulating your responses to the above two questions?

Thanks,

-Smac<<<

me>>>Hello,

I thought of 2 more falsifiable things.

1. Tithing as observed by the church as compared to the Mosaic teachings with regards to tithing. There very different.

2. Deacons serving communion rather than the leadership. In reading the accounts of the last supper Jesus very clearly indicated that the apostles, (those who would be the leaders) were to serve the congregation.<<<

you>>>These are not examples of "falsifiable" truth claims. You simply don't agree with the doctrines as taught by the Church. That's a very different thing than what is being discussed here. <<<

I would say that the two truth claims mentioned above would fall into category 1:In your view, which LDS truth claims are falsifiable? To actually falsify them involves reading the pertinent chapters in the Mosaic law concerning tithing, and the instructions given by Jesus at the last supper.

>>>You simply don't agree with the doctrines as taught by the Church. <<<

Since the instructions are plainly given in a writing which we consider to be true then it would seem to me that determining whether these writing falsified a church claim would involve looking at the related writings, rather than just saying I disagree with them.

I'm afraid you are still not following. These are not truth claims. The Church does not claim to be practicing these principles EXACTLY how they were done anciently and then basing their claims to truthfulness on those statements. Rather, the Church simply claims to be practicing a correct principle. You would need to falsify the principle, not how we practice it, in order to have something resembling a point here.

[mfbukowski]

You are learning. I have put DRW on permanent ignore. I got tired of his egocentric view and his overrated sense of self importance. Having learned there is no dialog only pontificating I leave it to others to practice futility and insanity with him.

Sounds like good advice. In contrast we have Urtnowski who is open to actual discussion.

[sleepyhead]

I'm afraid you are still not following. These are not truth claims. The Church does not claim to be practicing these principles EXACTLY how they were done anciently and then basing their claims to truthfulness on those statements. Rather, the Church simply claims to be practicing a correct principle. You would need to falsify the principle, not how we practice it, in order to have something resembling a point here.

Hello ttribe,

So after looking over the accounts of the last supper in the 4 gospels tell me what principle Jesus was trying to convey to his apostles?

[mfbukowski]

As to the rest of your questions, I do not participate on other boards. The reason I participate here is because I still have TBM family and friends and believe that it is important for them to have the opportunity for a dose of reality now and then.

I hope this response answers your questions.

Sounds like you are looking for converts. I think that is called missionary work. I am not sure if the forum allows that.

[ttribe]

Hello ttribe,

So after looking over the accounts of the last supper in the 4 gospels tell me what principle Jesus was trying to convey to his apostles?

The Atonement.

Are you going to attempt to falsify that one?

[sleepyhead]

And how, exactly, does that function to falsify the Church's truth claims?

You are aware, are you not, that it is completely non-controversial Mormon doctrine, unquestioned by any plausibly orthodox Latter-day Saints, that the Law of Moses was fulfilled -- and thus came to an end -- in the Atonement?

And you are likewise aware, are you not, that tithing as a principle predates Moses by many centuries, having been practiced by Abraham?

CFR, please: where exactly does Jesus say this?

Please note that you can hardly appeal to the personnel involved, since leaders of the Church made up 100% of the attendance at that Solemn Assembly.

Regards,

Pahoran

Hello pahoran,

The truth claim would be that those LDS who pay what the church defines as tithing are actually keeping the law of tithing. From another discussion on the board it appears to me that a lot of LDS believe they are keeping the law of tithing. They must have gotten that idea from somewhere.