Jason Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 Yep.So that must not, in fact, be the only reason why God doesn't heal everyone who prays to be healed.
ttribe Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 So that must not, in fact, be the only reason why God doesn't heal everyone who prays to be healed.Agreed...but I should probably stop speaking for the atheists/agnostics in the room since I have an admitted bias in the outcome of this line of reasoning.
AndyOne Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 I used to wonder about this one. If God knew everything, especially well enough to give prophets inside information, then do we have free will? I wrestled with this one for some time as a member and realized that God must be looking back. Think of it like this. I am looking through a history book about Stalin. I know about all the murders he committed and his cop-mustache. How do I know? He already made the choice, right? Therefore, just because I knew the choice he made, doesn't mean he had to make those choices. He recorded the choice, I read it. All this means is that God is looking backwards. He could, based on this, get on his bat-phone and warn the saints to get out of Russia (if they were there), he could predict what would happen if this or that happened, all without affecting agency. Plus, this explains why he is reluctant to intervene, to avoid contaminating the time line and interfering with free will. I see no reason that knowledge of an action should mean no choice in the action. Now where is my time-phone, something must be done about Cher.If God is an interventionist - which is believed to be the case among LDS and others - he could have off'd Stalin pre-8 years old to protect him from himself and future bad choices.
Brade Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 We've debated the point before.I know, I thought you were libertarian about free will (maybe I'm misremembering) which is why I was surprised to see your comment.
ttribe Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 If God is an interventionist - which is believed to be the case among LDS and others - he could have off'd Stalin pre-8 years old to protect him from himself and future bad choices.If that was the case, He should have just stopped Adam and Eve from eating the "apple" and called it good. Clearly, then, the situation is far more complex than the examples provided.
Jason Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 I know, I thought you were libertarian about free will (maybe I'm misremembering) which is why I was surprised to see your comment.I am essentially libertarian with regards to free will, but I also believe that God has perfect foreknowledge. Yes, I am aware this is a potential conflict.If God is an interventionist - which is believed to be the case among LDS and others - he could have off'd Stalin pre-8 years old to protect him from himself and future bad choices.So perhaps Stalin had to make those bad choices.
krose Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 If people did get better every time they prayed, would you consider that proof positive that God exists?Or something very close to it, yes.I doubt it's coincidence, but it is certainly your prerogative to chalk it up to whatever you wish.No, I don't see it as a coincidence at all; that line was sarcasm. To me the fact that the evidence for a hidden god who requires faith is exactly the same as that for a made-up god, is a strong indication that none exists.
AndyOne Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 I am essentially libertarian with regards to free will, but I also believe that God has perfect foreknowledge. Yes, I am aware this is a potential conflict.So perhaps Stalin had to make those bad choices.I think that's right - and the whole situation is much more complex then we realize. I like CS Lewis on this stuff.
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