Dirty Harry and Higher Critical Research

[Ron Beron]

I think sometimes its a lot easier to leave the question "I gottsta know." on the table. Because sometimes we are so comfortable where we are in things, we don't want anything to change us. I would call this the sin of living comfortably in falsehood and I do think its a sin most of us commit from time to time. I think the ultimate fear of truth, is that it will change us.

In a tangible sense, its like this little bump I had on my scalp behind my ear. It was small and I would scratch at it. It would get sore from time to time. I thought it could potentially be cancer. Part of me was afraid to find out the truth, I found the uncertainty of not knowing more comfortable than the thought of having my fear realized and having to face that truth.

I never went to the Doctor about it. It went away, whatever it was, in a couple of months. I saved money of course, but wasn't this actually an act of cowardice on my part? I think so. Mudcat was a scaredy cat.

I think sometimes we are equally if not more so fearful on spiritual matters.

You have got my curiosity piqued about that bullet that nearly did you in. But I get the feeling I should leave well enough alone.

Very astute observations. I think, men in particular, have had those 'bumps' in life that go untreated and hopefully disappear so I can understand completely. Your bigger comment of leaving some questions unanswered as part of a great unknown quality of life was aptly answered in a comment by the poet Rilke,

"have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don't search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer."

As to your final question I will get around to that...

[CV75]

How do the deeper learners here feel about this?

The shallow learner (a punk) has no courage, is acted upon, and "has to know" only to remove the anxiety over the dominant role that he allows chance to play in his life. The deeper learner (a man) will act, and sacrifice or employ some personal risk to increase his vulnerability to be open to the truth, and "has to know" despite realizing it will result in a greater boundary with what he does not know. Both a punk and a man will experience suspense and danger from time to time (the punk with fear and the man with faith).

[Ron Beron]

The shallow learner (a punk) has no courage, is acted upon, and "has to know" only to remove the anxiety over the dominant role that he allows chance to play in his life. The deeper learner (a man) will act, and sacrifice or employ some personal risk to increase his vulnerability to be open to the truth, and "has to know" despite realizing it will result in a greater boundary with what he does not know. Both a punk and a man will experience suspense and danger from time to time (the punk with fear and the man with faith).

Good explanation...thanks. BTW, does the CV75 in your name refer to the USS Truman?

[CV75]

Good explanation...thanks. BTW, does the CV75 in your name refer to the USS Truman?

I'm happy to be able to participate--the CV75 stands for "converted (baptized) in 1975". Have a great day!

[mledbetter]

I'm happy to be able to participate--the CV75 stands for "converted (baptized) in 1975". Have a great day!

Wow, that's the year I was born.

[Ron Beron]

Wow, that's the year I was born.

Oh great...another youngster!

[mfbukowski]

Oh great...another youngster!

I know. That was the year before my 10 year high school reunion.

[Honorentheos]

Great thread. The Emerson quote is a nice little gem of thought as well.

When reading the OP I was reminded of an essay I read from the 2008 "Best of Buddhist Writing" that dealt with a zen koan regarding the rhinoceros fan -

One day Yanguan called to his attendant, "Bring me the rhinoceros fan."

The attendant said, "The fan is broken."

Yanguan said, "Then bring me the rhinoceros!"

The attendant had no reply.

Zifu drew a circle and wrote the word "rhino" inside it.

While there are many interpretations of this koan, (and like most koans the fact someone thinks there is an answer and their's is the best can be interesting to me,) I liked the author of this essay's point. That being that she saw in the attendant's lack of response an opening up to the honest fact that the fan was broken and he was beyond trying to offer a clever response to the teacher's command. He allowed himself to be as broken as the fan, as absent as the rhino, and just accept it.

Or he was just scared. Either way.

Bullet or shield, do both imply that in some way we CAN know? I like Mudcat's point about avoiding questions where we may not want to find the answer. I also see in it a reverse side where we sometimes "wantsta know" more than we can accept the possibility that we don't know...and maybe never will.

Part of my leaving the LDS faith has involved an acceptance that the answers- the "know" - are a separate matter from the institution of the church. This quote from President John Taylor meant a lot to me then -

"A man in search of truth has no peculiar system to sustain, no peculiar dogma to defend or theory to uphold. He embraces all truth, and that truth, like the sun in the firmament, shines forth and spreads its effulgent rays over all creation. If men will divest themselves of bias and prejudice, and prayerfully and conscientiously search after truth, they will find it wherever they turn their attention." -Chapter 23: Eternal Truth,â? Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor"

In reading the Emerson quote, I may have seen it differently than some here, but I hope that Emerson would approve of how I took it. This bolded part stood out to me -

"There is no chance, and no anarchy, in the universe. All is system and gradation. Every god is there sitting in his sphere. The young mortal enters the hall of the firmament: there is he alone with them alone, they pouring on him benedictions and gifts, and beckoning him up to their thrones. On the instant, and incessantly, fall snowâ??storms of illusions. He fancies himself in a vast crowd which sways this way and that, and whose movement and doings he must obey: he fancies himself poor, orphaned, insignificant. The mad crowd drives hither and thither, now furiously commanding this thing to be done, now that. What is he that he should resist their will, and think or act for himself? Every moment, new changes, and new showers of deceptions, to baffle and distract him. And when, by and by, for an instant, the air clears, and the cloud lifts a little, there are the gods still sitting around him on their thrones, â?? they alone with him alone." --Emerson

Interesting how, given the same information we all take so much different, yet hopefully valuable things from it. Or, as Nevo said, "0".

[mledbetter]

Oh great...another youngster!

:-)

[mledbetter]

I know. That was the year before my 10 year high school reunion.

Don't feel bad guys. I enjoy being around you old folks (...umm...seasoned folks...oh, what's a good euphemism!). I learn more hanging around you guys than when I'm around my own screwed up generation. :-p

[mfbukowski]

Great thread. The Emerson quote is a nice little gem of thought as well.

When reading the OP I was reminded of an essay I read from the 2008 "Best of Buddhist Writing" that dealt with a zen koan regarding the rhinoceros fan -

One day Yanguan called to his attendant, "Bring me the rhinoceros fan."

The attendant said, "The fan is broken."

Yanguan said, "Then bring me the rhinoceros!"

The attendant had no reply.

Zifu drew a circle and wrote the word "rhino" inside it.

While there are many interpretations of this koan, (and like most koans the fact someone thinks there is an answer and their's is the best can be interesting to me,) I liked the author of this essay's point. That being that she saw in the attendant's lack of response an opening up to the honest fact that the fan was broken and he was beyond trying to offer a clever response to the teacher's command. He allowed himself to be as broken as the fan, as absent as the rhino, and just accept it.

Or he was just scared. Either way.

Bullet or shield, do both imply that in some way we CAN know? I like Mudcat's point about avoiding questions where we may not want to find the answer. I also see in it a reverse side where we sometimes "wantsta know" more than we can accept the possibility that we don't know...and maybe never will.

Part of my leaving the LDS faith has involved an acceptance that the answers- the "know" - are a separate matter from the institution of the church. This quote from President John Taylor meant a lot to me then -

"A man in search of truth has no peculiar system to sustain, no peculiar dogma to defend or theory to uphold. He embraces all truth, and that truth, like the sun in the firmament, shines forth and spreads its effulgent rays over all creation. If men will divest themselves of bias and prejudice, and prayerfully and conscientiously search after truth, they will find it wherever they turn their attention." -Chapter 23: Eternal Truth,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor"

In reading the Emerson quote, I may have seen it differently than some here, but I hope that Emerson would approve of how I took it. This bolded part stood out to me -

"There is no chance, and no anarchy, in the universe. All is system and gradation. Every god is there sitting in his sphere. The young mortal enters the hall of the firmament: there is he alone with them alone, they pouring on him benedictions and gifts, and beckoning him up to their thrones. On the instant, and incessantly, fall snow–storms of illusions. He fancies himself in a vast crowd which sways this way and that, and whose movement and doings he must obey: he fancies himself poor, orphaned, insignificant. The mad crowd drives hither and thither, now furiously commanding this thing to be done, now that. What is he that he should resist their will, and think or act for himself? Every moment, new changes, and new showers of deceptions, to baffle and distract him. And when, by and by, for an instant, the air clears, and the cloud lifts a little, there are the gods still sitting around him on their thrones, — they alone with him alone." --Emerson

Interesting how, given the same information we all take so much different, yet hopefully valuable things from it. Or, as Nevo said, "0".

Thanks for this post. Good stuff.

The only advantage I know of growing old is the fact that you have lived a long time!

In one of my previous "lives" before I was a member, I had buddies who were very into zen, and I think we need to appreciate it more as LDS than we do. I occasionally went with them to their monastery and meditated with them.

We need to recognize more clearly I think, the nature of intuition and the role it plays in our lives. I think we should have some of those who think that science and logic are the only paths to studying reality, read some koans. If nothing else, it would show them that others in this world don't agree with them.

But don't look to hard for "intepretations" because they aren't there.

I once met Salvador Dali. I took a dollar bill out of my pocket, signed it, and gave it to him. He accepted it graciously.

[HiJolly]

The question all serious students asked themselves is at what point are we facing the gun barrel of a .44 Magnum and asking the question of â??I gots to knowâ? in our pursuit of information and knowledge. Will our questions produce a death inducing fusillade of murderous truth or will we be rewarded with the knowledge of a simple â??clickâ? of an empty chamber?

The answers are not easy, but they are often worth the suspense.

How do the deeper learners here feel about this?

Until I was willing to give up everything I thought I knew, I didn't know. I put it all on the altar of God, and gave it up.

It was a life-defining moment, and was well worth it.

I sought Truth, and found it. Truth led me to Love. Love led me to Joy. Man is, that he might have Joy.

HiJolly

[Ron Beron]

Until I was willing to give up everything I thought I knew, I didn't know. I put it all on the altar of God, and gave it up.

It was a life-defining moment, and was well worth it.

I sought Truth, and found it. Truth led me to Love. Love led me to Joy. Man is, that he might have Joy.

HiJolly

Back in my days of 'worshipping' Miyamoto Musashi we would have called this 'slaying the Buddha'. Sometime that needs to be done periodically.

[Mudcat]

Back in my days of 'worshipping' Miyamoto Musashi we would have called this 'slaying the Buddha'. Sometime that needs to be done periodically.

I keep watching this thread, waiting on you to drop the spiritual bomb of what this is all about.

C'mon Ron. As Paul Harvey would've said, I want "the rest of the story"

[Honorentheos]

I keep watching this thread, waiting on you to drop the spiritual bomb of what this is all about.

C'mon Ron. As Paul Harvey would've said, I want "the rest of the story"

"Gotstta know"?

I think this creates one of the best tangentst this thread could take - thoughts on the path to knowing. It was something that jumped out to me when I read the OP because I have seldom in life encountered something that I "gottsta know" that I actually learned simply by asking.

One aspect of "The Book of Five Rings" by Musashi that I find intriguing is his constant ending of every paragraph with an admonition that each technique be refined or perfected through practice. It's a terrible book to read if you "gotstta know" but an excellent book if one is looking for directions on the way to knowing.

[Ron Beron]

I keep watching this thread, waiting on you to drop the spiritual bomb of what this is all about.

C'mon Ron. As Paul Harvey would've said, I want "the rest of the story"

And give up the meaning of the divine 'koan'? Never! At least not today. I'm going to the movies. Oh....what the heck...

One day a master told his student that if he met the Buddha on a road he should slay him. The student asked why he would want to do that. Meeting the Buddha arguably means that the your journey is complete, but this is a false vision. It is only an expression of what we seek. If we do not slay the Buddha he will stand in our way.

Therefore, what we find in the church we believe is the final truth is not always so. By accepting all paradigms we disengage ourselves from the journey for truth which is eternal. Consequently, we must shatter all perceived truths. Kind of like 'The Matrix'.

[Honorentheos]

And give up the meaning of the divine 'koan'? Never! At least not today. I'm going to the movies. Oh....what the heck...

One day a master told his student that if he met the Buddha on a road he should slay him. The student asked why he would want to do that. Meeting the Buddha arguably means that the your journey is complete, but this is a false vision. It is only an expression of what we seek. If we do not slay the Buddha he will stand in our way.

Therefore, what we find in the church we believe is the final truth is not always so. By accepting all paradigms we disengage ourselves from the journey for truth which is eternal. Consequently, we must shatter all perceived truths. Kind of like 'The Matrix'.

I've always liked this story from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones that somewhat relates to "slaying the buddha" - atleast to me:

Happy Chinaman

Anyone walking about Chinatowns in America will observe statues of a stout fellow carrying a linen sack. Chinese merchants call him Happy Chinaman or Laughing Buddha.

This Hotei lived in the T'ang dynasty. He had no desire to call himself a Zen master or to gather many disciples about him. Instead he walked the streets with a big sack into which he would put gifts of candy, fruit, or doughnuts. These he would give to children who gathered around him in play. He established a kindergarten of the streets.

Whenever he met a Zen devotee he would extend his hand and say: "Givewme one penny." And if anyone asked him to return to a temple to teach others, again he would reply: "Give me one penny."

Once he was about his play-work when another Zen master happened along and inquired: "What is the significance of Zen?"

Hotei immediately plopped his sack down on the ground in silent answer.

"Then," asked the other, "what is the actualization of Zen?"

At once the Happy Chinaman swung the sack over his shoulder and continued on his way.

[mfbukowski]

And give up the meaning of the divine 'koan'? Never! At least not today. I'm going to the movies. Oh....what the heck...

One day a master told his student that if he met the Buddha on a road he should slay him. The student asked why he would want to do that. Meeting the Buddha arguably means that the your journey is complete, but this is a false vision. It is only an expression of what we seek. If we do not slay the Buddha he will stand in our way.

Therefore, what we find in the church we believe is the final truth is not always so. By accepting all paradigms we disengage ourselves from the journey for truth which is eternal. Consequently, we must shatter all perceived truths. Kind of like 'The Matrix'.

[Ron Beron]

I've always liked this story from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones that somewhat relates to "slaying the buddha" - atleast to me:Happy ChinamanAnyone walking about Chinatowns in America will observe statues of a stout fellow carrying a linen sack. Chinese merchants call him Happy Chinaman or Laughing Buddha.This Hotei lived in the T'ang dynasty. He had no desire to call himself a Zen master or to gather many disciples about him. Instead he walked the streets with a big sack into which he would put gifts of candy, fruit, or doughnuts. These he would give to children who gathered around him in play. He established a kindergarten of the streets.Whenever he met a Zen devotee he would extend his hand and say: "Givewme one penny." And if anyone asked him to return to a temple to teach others, again he would reply: "Give me one penny."Once he was about his play-work when another Zen master happened along and inquired: "What is the significance of Zen?"Hotei immediately plopped his sack down on the ground in silent answer."Then," asked the other, "what is the actualization of Zen?"At once the Happy Chinaman swung the sack over his shoulder and continued on his way.

Love the book

Is that the sound of one hand clapping?

[mfbukowski]

Is that the sound of one hand clapping?

We need some new smileys!

[Ron Beron]

We need some new smileys!

[e=mc2]

And give up the meaning of the divine 'koan'? Never! At least not today. I'm going to the movies. Oh....what the heck...

One day a master told his student that if he met the Buddha on a road he should slay him. The student asked why he would want to do that. Meeting the Buddha arguably means that the your journey is complete, but this is a false vision. It is only an expression of what we seek. If we do not slay the Buddha he will stand in our way.

Therefore, what we find in the church we believe is the final truth is not always so. By accepting all paradigms we disengage ourselves from the journey for truth which is eternal. Consequently, we must shatter all perceived truths. Kind of like 'The Matrix'.

Dude...... that is profound you know.....

[Jeff K.]

The brain automatically enforces all observations into paradigms. It is the manner in which we catagorize life around us.

The quote is the philosophical equivalence of saying "I wish evil didn't exist".

[Honorentheos]

The brain automatically enforces all observations into paradigms. It is the manner in which we catagorize life around us.

The quote is the philosophical equivalence of saying "I wish evil didn't exist".

Which quote are you refering to?

[Jeff K.]

Which quote are you refering to?

Beron's