For those who felt deceived

[beastie]

My entire issue is how you simply find it "hard to believe" that other people were perhaps more thoughtful, did more investigation and were given more patience. And your basic defense is, "well it didn't happen to me". Too bad. That doesn't invalidate anyone else's experience.

Since no one here asserted that it was hard to believe that other people were more thoughtful, did more investigation, and were given more patience, it seems your â??issueâ? is with your own imagination or propensity to misunderstand the statements of others.

I can't tell you where to look. But yes, it is utterly ridiculous for someone to hear a religious point of view and not believe there was another side. There are a myriad of churches out there with their points of view and you never thought to look? Or ask? Or anything? Your lack of intellectual and spiritual rigor on something as important as the spiritual aspects of your life is astounding.

I predict that one day you will again shift from atheism to something else. It seems the currents easily snag your fancy. At least from what I have read.

This has got to be one of the strangest conversations Iâ??ve ever had, even for the internet.

Since you deem that my approach to joining the LDS church reflected a â??lack of intellectual and spiritual rigorâ?, do you, in principle, object to the manner in which the LDS church approaches investigators?

It also is odd that you â??canâ??t tell me where to lookâ? in terms of what I was supposed to know to ask for from the microfiche library as a 19 year old, and yet assert that the fact that it didnâ??t occur to me to ask for microfiches aboutâ?¦.well, you donâ??t know whatâ?¦.reflects a â??lack of intellectual and spiritual rigor.â?

Does anyone else find it amusing that Iâ??m being criticized by (some) LDS believers for not being suspicious enough of the story the missionaries taught me?

BTW, I readily admit I was a gullible nineteen year old. I was absolutely gullible for just swallowing the story the missionaries taught me.

Does that really score you some point, jeffk?

[Abulafia]

Since no one here asserted that it was hard to believe that other people were more thoughtful, did more investigation, and were given more patience, it seems your â??issueâ? is with your own imagination or propensity to misunderstand the statements of others.

This has got to be one of the strangest conversations Iâ??ve ever had, even for the internet.

Since you deem that my approach to joining the LDS church reflected a â??lack of intellectual and spiritual rigorâ?, do you, in principle, object to the manner in which the LDS church approaches investigators?

It also is odd that you â??canâ??t tell me where to lookâ? in terms of what I was supposed to know to ask for from the microfiche library as a 19 year old, and yet assert that the fact that it didnâ??t occur to me to ask for microfiches aboutâ?¦.well, you donâ??t know whatâ?¦.reflects a â??lack of intellectual and spiritual rigor.â?

Does anyone else find it amusing that Iâ??m being criticized by (some) LDS believers for not being suspicious enough of the story the missionaries taught me?

BTW, I readily admit I was a gullible nineteen year old. I was absolutely gullible for just swallowing the story the missionaries taught me.

Does that really score you some point, jeffk?

I find it a little perplexing to be honest. As a missionary (I served up in Manchester 81-83) we taught mostly in the poorer areas. I think, because these people were more open, more looking to improve their lot. We avoided wealthy areas mostly because they were so unproductive. The more educated, people were, particularly in areas of religion, the less likely they were to consider what was a 2 week baptism program. Looking back, I now feel that was far too short a time for people to make such an important decision. (I've heard that in earlier times it wasn't always like that)

Our role was to teach the lessons as given (had to learn them off by heart), and not really wander too much. The goal was to lead people to a spiritual rather than intellectual conversion and then to commit them to baptism. Ultimately, I think that the conversion needed to be much more balanced between intellectual and spiritual, because the activity rates were dire. Of the 60 people I taught to baptism, I don't know 1 that is still active.

I'm not sure how the church can balance up an intellectual conversion with a spiritual one in terms of missionary lessons. It will be interesting to see how things pan out in the future as church history does become more accessible and widely known.

Mary

[Deborah]

And now I'll completely show my ignorance by asking what it was exactly that you were watching... Is the Joseph Smith Papers Project a group led by non-members? Who? (I'll go do a search)

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/Default.htm

KJZZ here in Utah has a discussion on the on-going work every Sunday night. This last Sunday they talked about a gathering of religious scholars who met to celebrate Joseph Smith as a historical figure and as a great influence on the American scene. Some pretty flattering comments. People who have really studied him don't seem to hate him as much as some others on the internet.

[Deborah]

BTW, I readily admit I was a gullible nineteen year old. I was absolutely gullible for just swallowing the story the missionaries taught me.

If that is the case, why are you blaming the church? I was not gullible, and in fact very cautious, and still fell for the missionaries' story. Imagine that! And it was the best decision of my life even though I had no idea how deep and profound what I had done turned out to be.

[Jeff K.]

As a missionary you don't provide a balanced perspective of the Mormon church. Some people who listen to the discussions trust what the missionaries are presenting and don't feel a need to look elsewhere, at least that was my impression as a missionary. But this was before the internet. Now it is so easy to check things out by the click of a button.

I think very few people are really that uneducated. A missionary's job is not to present a comprehensive view or religion it is to present their doctrine. What you are attempting to impose upon missionaries is somewhat ridiculous. And I have yet to hear of someone mention the Mormons among trusted friends and not received a host of opinions regarding the issue. Long before the internet.

[Jeff K.]

I find that in mainstream Christian churches there is a push towards discussing these issues, certainly much more than was ever discussed in the Mormon church in my opinion. LDS often spend more on the spiritual or the burning in the bosom, whereas the Christians tend to discuss more of the evidence. It is not uncommon to have discussions on evolution, atheism, cults etc.

That is patently inaccurate. I have yet to see mainstream religion offer equal time to say Muslim churchs or even othere sects of Christianity.

You should visit other churches sometimes. I do all the time, it was part of my responsibility in the interfaith council.

[Jeff K.]

Since no one here asserted that it was hard to believe that other people were more thoughtful, did more investigation, and were given more patience, it seems your â??issueâ? is with your own imagination or propensity to misunderstand the statements of others.

This has got to be one of the strangest conversations Iâ??ve ever had, even for the internet.

Since you deem that my approach to joining the LDS church reflected a â??lack of intellectual and spiritual rigorâ?, do you, in principle, object to the manner in which the LDS church approaches investigators?

It also is odd that you â??canâ??t tell me where to lookâ? in terms of what I was supposed to know to ask for from the microfiche library as a 19 year old, and yet assert that the fact that it didnâ??t occur to me to ask for microfiches aboutâ?¦.well, you donâ??t know whatâ?¦.reflects a â??lack of intellectual and spiritual rigor.â?

Does anyone else find it amusing that Iâ??m being criticized by (some) LDS believers for not being suspicious enough of the story the missionaries taught me?

BTW, I readily admit I was a gullible nineteen year old. I was absolutely gullible for just swallowing the story the missionaries taught me.

Does that really score you some point, jeffk?

No, your lack of rigor in both the spiritual and intellectual reflects your shortcoming. Its your agency and your right to choose. Breast feeding usually stops a few months after you are born, after a while you need to learn to feed yourself.

I told you where to look. And yet, you couldn't even think to ask people. Was it that unimportant to you? Your excuses for not taking responsibility for your life and your own actions are extraordinary to say the least. You place your entire philosophy of life in the hands of a 19 year old missionary and then blame them for not breast feeding you all the information you need. Its almost pathetic.

You might have been a gullible 19 year old, but now you are a responsibility dodging, older person who will grasp any excuse other than their own shortcomings. And when someone else who was 16 at the time steps up and tells you what they were doing at the time, you suddenly find it "hard to believe".

The first thing you should do is splash some cold water on yourself, then mature and maybe face the responsibility that you are responsible for your decisions and stop looking for excuses that someone else is at fault. Even in the 1970's there was plenty of opinion and information (especially during the attempted passing of the ERA). What you offer is not even a good excuse.

Since no one here asserted that it was hard to believe that other people were more thoughtful, did more investigation, and were given more patience, it seems your â??issueâ? is with your own imagination or propensity to misunderstand the statements of others.

For your benefit:

Iâ??m having a very hard time taking these responses seriously. An investigator is supposed to subscribe to the Ensign, and read it for years until they happen upon one of these articles. Or the Dialogue. Or study microfiches????

The "hard time" is of your own making, not the missionaries.

[MichaelW]

No, your lack of rigor in both the spiritual and intellectual reflects your shortcoming. Its your agency and your right to choose. Breast feeding usually stops a few months after you are born, after a while you need to learn to feed yourself.

I told you where to look. And yet, you couldn't even think to ask people. Was it that unimportant to you? Your excuses for not taking responsibility for your life and your own actions are extraordinary to say the least. You place your entire philosophy of life in the hands of a 19 year old missionary and then blame them for not breast feeding you all the information you need. Its almost pathetic.

You might have been a gullible 19 year old, but now you are a responsibility dodging, older person who will grasp any excuse other than their own shortcomings. And when someone else who was 16 at the time steps up and tells you what they were doing at the time, you suddenly find it "hard to believe".

The first thing you should do is splash some cold water on yourself, then mature and maybe face the responsibility that you are responsible for your decisions and stop looking for excuses that someone else is at fault. Even in the 1970's there was plenty of opinion and information (especially during the attempted passing of the ERA). What you offer is not even a good excuse.

For your benefit:

The "hard time" is of your own making, not the missionaries.

I'd imagine you'll file this post under "pathetic," as you seemingly have with every post and person you've taken issue with on this thread--but you really do seem like an incredibly cruel person. Message boards aren't really my thing and I don't have a wide range of experience, but I've never come across a poster like you who hasn't been banned for being uncivil. The fact that this is on a religious message board--and you're a devotee of the religion--is bizarre. No matter what value there may be in whatever message you try to convey (and you probably could care less if people find value in anything), it'll get lost in the hate and the ridicule.

[Gervin]

The condemnation and judgment by some members of the LDS Church (above) is almost as telling as the lack of rebuke from fellow believers who are commanded to love these same members. Continue.

edit - MichaelW, if you are a member, then I commend your position. If not, same.

[Jeff K.]

And the judgement by those who aren't members upon us poor deluded people of faith is as telling. Cheesey posts always need a little whine to wash them down.

[ttribe]

The condemnation and judgment by some members of the LDS Church (above) is almost as telling as the lack of rebuke from fellow believers who are commanded to love these same members. Continue.

edit - MichaelW, if you are a member, then I commend your position. If not, same.

Actually, it has been said already...perhaps a read through the WHOLE thread would do you well: Post Link

[Tarski]

You are presenting a most idiotic argument for a brainy person I have ever read.

I am sure it seems that way to you.

Your mischaracturizing the issues I deal with in the Book of Mormon is silly.

I know this is just a misspelling, but did you mean "mis-caricaturizing", "caricaturizing", or mischaracterizing?

In any case, I must point out that what I gave was not an argument per se at all but an assessment--an assessment or opinion of your style of argument.

..

.

[Jeff K.]

Chuckle, what is the difference between opinoin/assessment and an argument which is an opposing opinion and assessment? Is that poster making any sense?

Sigh probably not with that post.

[Tarski]

Chuckle, what is the difference between opinoin/assessment and an argument which is an opposing opinion and assessment? Is that poster making any sense?

Sigh probably not with that post.

LOL

Big difference. Obvious difference.

An opinion is not an argument though an opinion may result in part from an argument.

Neither is a mere statement or description of the results of an unstated argument, an argument itself.

When someone says "my assessment is that Joseph Smith was not a prophet" is that a misuse of the word assess?

It is certainly not an argument.

I thought you were going to put me on "ignore".

Your "chuckle" is ironic every time.

[Scott Lloyd]

When you say "rational" what you really mean is that they were exposed to the same information and stayed a strong member of the LDS church. But I don't think that this is rational, rather it is just different people reacting differently to the same information depending on their individual situation. For example, two people can look at the Book of Abraham, one can say that it is obviously a false translation by Joseph Smith, and the other person can justify it by one of the many "so called" possible explanations, because they have the burning in the bosom, therefore it is true no matter what.

This remark is oozing with condescension and is a textbook example of the very point I was making. Your use of the term "so-called" and your sneering reference the burning in the bosom (which is a New Testament concept, by the way) indicates contempt for those who see a rational faith in the doctrines of the Latter-day Saints.

[Billy]

I think very few people are really that uneducated. A missionary's job is not to present a comprehensive view or religion it is to present their doctrine. What you are attempting to impose upon missionaries is somewhat ridiculous. And I have yet to hear of someone mention the Mormons among trusted friends and not received a host of opinions regarding the issue. Long before the internet.

I think that some people who are not LDS know a fair bit about them, but for the most part people do not know about the deeper doctrine of the LDS church.

When non Mormons ask me about Mormonism and I tell them about it they often say, "they don't believe that do they".

[Scott Lloyd]

I think that some people who are not LDS know a fair bit about them, but for the most part people do not know about the deeper doctrine of the LDS church.

When non Mormons ask me about Mormonism and I tell them about it they often say, "they don't believe that do they".

Pardon, but from what I have seen, I don't trust you to give a fair rendition of Mormon belief.

[Daniel Peterson]

The condemnation and judgment by some members of the LDS Church (above) is almost as telling as the lack of rebuke from fellow believers who are commanded to love these same members. Continue.

I seldom read all of the posts on any thread, and I don't read most threads at all.

If I've failed to condemn something that ought to have been condemned, I condemn it now, wholeheartedly.

If something has been said that, in your view, merits the attention of the moderators, please bring it to their attention. They're private people, with lives, and they can't read everything here, either.

Incidentally, if you're condemning and judging me and others on the grounds that we haven't condemned and judged as too condemnatory and judgmental what you want us to have condemned and judged, that, too, may be very "telling."

[Billy]

I've heard some of those discussions on "cults." (See my book Offenders for a Word.)

I routinely give lectures on evidences for the Book of Mormon, Islam, etc., all over the Church, including audiences of 1500 or so at BYU Education Week. I spoke on Islam to about 600 LDS in Orlando, Florida, back at the end of January, and will do so to an LDS audience in Anchorage, Alaska, next week. About two or three weeks ago I spoke on evidence for the resurrection of Christ to a sizeable audience in Mesa, Arizona. And I'm not the only person who gives such speeches.

I think that is great. Utah, especially the provo area in fairly unique though in terms of availability of some of these opportunities. Hey even I sometimes benefit from them when I am in town visiting family. In fact last year I attended John Gee's lecture at Olivewood Books.

[Daniel Peterson]

I think that is great. Utah, especially the provo area in fairly unique though in terms of availability of some of these opportunities. Hey even I sometimes benefit from them when I am in town visiting family. In fact last year I attended John Gee's lecture at Olivewood Books.

Mesa isn't in Provo. Nor is Orlando. Nor is Anchorage.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Pardon, but from what I have seen, I don't trust you to give a fair rendition of Mormon belief.

I 2nd that.

[Billy]

Pardon, but from what I have seen, I don't trust you to give a fair rendition of Mormon belief.

I am careful to give accurate information about the LDS church because if I give false information it only discredits my position in the long run. I try to limit the information that I use to the LDS website, Standard Works, J of D, and writings by LDS Apostles and Prophets.

[Billy]

Mesa isn't in Provo. Nor is Orlando. Nor is Anchorage.

No, I understand, but what I was trying to point out is that in the Provo-SLC area these types of presentations are much more available than for those LDS members in other areas of the country, let alone for those in foreign countries.

[Gervin]

I seldom read all of the posts on any thread, and I don't read most threads at all.

If I've failed to condemn something that ought to have been condemned, I condemn it now, wholeheartedly.

Well, to coin a phrase, cute, but you missed the point.

If something has been said that, in your view, merits the attention of the moderators, please bring it to their attention. They're private people, with lives, and they can't read everything here, either.

I'm familiar with the Board rules, but thanks

Incidentally, if you're condemning and judging me and others on the grounds that we haven't condemned and judged as too condemnatory and judgmental what you want us to have condemned and judged, that, too, may be very "telling."

Not being LDS, I don't have any basis for condemning or judging what members do or don't do with regard to fellow members who are mean spirited in the name of the church. But, per scriptures you adhere to, I have the right to draw conclusions based on what I observe. I was observing.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I am careful to give accurate information about the LDS church because if I give false information it only discredits my position in the long run. I try to limit the information that I use to the LDS website, Standard Works, J of D, and writings by LDS Apostles and Prophets.

Except for when you are wondering why missionaries were white shirts??