Moderate Alcohol Consumption

[hordak]

You'll have a tough time proving that.

I find it funny that these two websites contradict each other on almost every point:

National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism No. 34 PH 370 October 1996

Law and Policy by Alcohol Problems and Solutions

This first link doesn't address the fundamental problem. Whether alcohol is forbidden til 18 or 21 it is still viewed as a right of passage. There is no learning curve. They are not taught moderation.

[The Dude]

It is a health code, and it says nothing about caffeine/coke.

So why are hot drinks (coffee/tea) forbidden?

A common answer is caffeine.

So why is coke, no-doze, and chocolate not forbidden?

Hmmmm....

In the mission field we used to get around this by saying coffee and tea are too acidic, and that's why they're forbidden. We were young and foolish, trying to impress people with made-up things like that. It would have been better to play the to "covenant with God" card, don't you agree?

[Nofear]

This first link doesn't address the fundamental problem. Whether alcohol is forbidden til 18 or 21 it is still viewed as a right of passage. There is no learning curve. They are not taught moderation.

The point was not necessarily the specific issue of being taught moderation, but that people like to point out the statistics that favor their view. Speaking of which, we might as well debunk the entirely false premise of Europe being more "moderate":

A great majority of the European countries have higher intoxication rates among young people than the United States and less than a quarter had lower rates or equivalent rates to the United States.

Youth Drinking Rates and Problems: A Comparison of European Countries and the United States

[hordak]

The point was not necessarily the specific issue of being taught moderation, but that people like to point out the statistics that favor their view.

Now that I agree with.

[krose]

It's odd that you would consider the WoW a health code instead of just a test of obedience and a way to set the 'saints' apart. I suppose moderate alcohol consumption only became a health problem in the 1830s (coincidental with the abstinence movement). God was not concerned about it before then, and Jesus certainly didn't abstain.

By the way, are we going to have a similar discussion about tea, which is a beneficial drink?

[Nofear]

Now that I agree with.

Good. Now I've shown you my statistics. Let's see your "proof" of European moderation? (Then we call all be happy and move merrily along recognizing the irrelevance of either position to the OP.)

[semlogo]

It's my understanding that moderate alcohol, while beneficial to the heart, is only beneficial when you have a poor diet. IE it can fix some self-imposed heart problems, but is completely unnecessary if you actually eat right (which is the other part of the word of wisdom).

[hordak]

Good. Now I've shown you my statistics. Let's see your "proof" of European moderation? (Then we call all be happy and move merrily along recognizing the irrelevance of either position to the OP.)

Actually the link didn't work. As for my part...

References

Tavris, C. & Wade, C. (2008). Invitation to psychology

Upper Saddle river; NJ 07458: Prentice Hall

[Nofear]

Actually the link didn't work. As for my part...

Works fine for me. It's a pdf. Your citation is an entire psychology book, one that probably few if any of the readers possess? That's fine, I suppose, but something more narrow and accessible would be my preference.

[krose]

It's my understanding that moderate alcohol, while beneficial to the heart, is only beneficial when you have a poor diet. IE it can fix some self-imposed heart problems, but is completely unnecessary if you actually eat right (which is the other part of the word of wisdom).

Where do you get "eat right" out of Section 89? I just read it again, and I don't see it.

[Nofear]

Where do you get "eat right" out of Section 89? I just read it again, and I don't see it.

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving. 12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

I think most dietitians would agree that behavior consistent with the above would be "eating right".

[krose]

I think most dietitians would agree that behavior consistent with the above would be "eating right".

And amazingly, they can dispense their advice without needing divine revelation!

So it all boils down to two words, sparingly and prudence? That's not very helpful. It might as well just say "eat right" and be done with it.

The details are not really useful. I don't know anyone who eats anything other than meat, grain, herbs and fruits. That pretty much sums up everything edible. And I don't see any benefit to eating fruit only in season, and meat only in the winter. How is that helpful?

[Nofear]

And amazingly, they can dispense their advice without needing divine revelation!

So it all boils down to two words, sparingly and prudence? That's not very helpful. It might as well just say "eat right" and be done with it.

The details are not really useful. I don't know anyone who eats anything other than meat, grain, herbs and fruits. That pretty much sums up everything edible. And I don't see any benefit to eating fruit only in season, and meat only in the winter. How is that helpful?

The Word of Wisdom predates modern refrigeration. I'll let you figure out how that is relevant to an instruction given in the early 1800's.

But in the end, we do contemporarily summarize the WoW as including "eat right". But you took objection to that.

As to the "be done with it", you must have missed the whole covenant thing mentioned by other posters.

As for divine revelation - you can compare what what commonly taught as dietary wisdom in Joseph's day vs. what actually made it into the Word of Wisdom. The former proved riddled with error. The latter remains as sound and wise.

[Jaybear]

The Word of Wisdom predates modern refrigeration. I'll let you figure out how that is relevant to an instruction given in the early 1800's.

But in the end, we do contemporarily summarize the WoW as including "eat right". But you took objection to that.

As to the "be done with it", you must have missed the whole covenant thing mentioned by other posters.

As for divine revelation - you can compare what what commonly taught as dietary wisdom in Joseph's day vs. what actually made it into the Word of Wisdom. The former proved riddled with error. The latter remains as sound and wise.

Without refrigeration, avoiding hot drinks doesn't sound like sound advice to me.

But you have to admire the flexibility with which you interpret the WOW. Hot drinks equals coffee and tea, which equals caffeine, ergo BYU refuses to serve coca cola on its campus, unless its decaffeinated.

Look here is the bottom line. If you believe God wants you to avoid alcohol, then by all means you should abstain from alcohol, and what ever else you think God wants you to avoid, ie R rated movies, cofee, shoping on Sunday, swearing, premarital sex, sodomy.

There is no need to rationalize your beliefs. Its your life.

The rest of will do whatever we think is in our best interest, and frankly sometimes we will eat, drink or do things that are not in our best interest, because, well, that is what humans do. Now if you will excuse me, I think I will order a bacon cheeseburger for lunch, and not because its good for me.

[Nofear]

There is no need to rationalize your beliefs.

Agreed. But I fail to see the point of such a statement. Many try to mock following the WoW because there is evidence that behaviors contrary to the WoW actually promote health. The OP didn't rationalize the WoW but it works as a counter to the "rationalization" critics of Mormonism make. Such is the work of apologetics. Are you saying we shouldn't make apologetic arguments on the Mormon Apologetics & Discussion board?

[OMWO2]

I've always just held the view that any benefit you could possibly get from any alcoholic beverage can be obtained from another non-alcoholic source making it that much better for you.

Perhaps this is true in your experience. However, my experience is that a nice glass of wine before bed is wonderful. Of course, my LDS mother gets the same affect by taking her sleeping pills.

[Calm]

This stems from tough liquor laws

In countries where alcohol is not treated as a right of passage into adulthood but a common thing enjoyed in moderation abuse is less common. Policies of abstinence reduces over all consumption but increases abuse by those who still drink.

You ever been in Russia?

[Luigi]

My own feeling is that the scientific findings will continue to go up and down on the topic of alcohol. But, in any case, celebrations of red wine as a Mormonism-refuting health food seem to have been premature.

My own feeling is that scientific findings and their correlated medical understanding and advancements have saved more lives than any revelation that Joseph Smith ever received.

[Daniel Peterson]

My own feeling is that scientific findings and their correlated medical understanding and advancements have saved more lives than any revelation that Joseph Smith ever received.

Maybe. Whatever. A rather pathetically transparent attempt to change the subject and, by going back on the offensive, to score a cheap shot.

I'm quite convinced, myself, that the drinking of water has saved more lives than any scientific findings and medical advancements have ever saved.

[cjcampbell]

Maybe. Whatever. A rather pathetically transparent attempt to change the subject and, by going back on the offensive, to score a cheap shot.

I'm quite convinced, myself, that the drinking of water has saved more lives than any scientific findings and medical advancements have ever saved.

But, Daniel: water is contaminated with dihydrogen monoxide, a deadly poison!

[thesometimesaint]

The Dude:

The common answer is wrong. We have further revelation that "Hot Drink: is in reference to Tea and Coffee. That's it. An easy, non revelatory, way to look at the caffeine question is not if it contains caffeine, as many foods contain some, like chocolate, but whether the amounts would be habit forming. The same goes for alcohol yeast breads, ice cream, fine cooking, even dried fruit contains very small amounts of alcohol. No one is suggesting that we forgo ALL alcohol, just don't drink the stuff.

cjcampbell:

Even water consumed in large quantities is deadly.

[cjcampbell]

cjcampbell:

Even water consumed in large quantities is deadly.

Dihydrogen monoxide is one of the deadliest substances on earth. It causes thousands of deaths and billions of dollars in property damage every year. As little as a thimbleful can kill you. It is a major component of acid rain. It is also a solvent used in many industrial applications and is present in toilet cleaners and other cleansers. It is commonly used in nuclear power plants. All hot drinks and alcoholic beverages are contaminated with it, as are all major rivers, streams, lakes, and oceans throughout the world. It is so addictive that, once you are exposed to it, withdrawal means certain death within a few days. Consequently, evil men have added it to drinks like Coca Cola, Mountain Dew, Pepsi, and even baby formula. It kills more people than caffeine and alcohol and all illegal drugs combined every year. I do not understand how God can warn us against alcohol or hot drinks, but not even mention dihydrogen monoxide.

[cdowis]

I saw an interview where it was stated that NO ONE in the scientific community suggests that someone should take up drinking, based on these studies.

[spinner]

Over the past several years, some studies have suggested that moderate alcohol consumption is beneficial for cardiac health. Although medical researchers have been very cautious about this -- frequently advising non-drinkers not to take up drinking on the basis of the findings -- certain (in my experience, mostly secularist) ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons have loudly crowed that science is proving the Word of Wisdom false and redundantly demonstrating Mormons to be (once again) deluded buffoons.

Now, though, a very large study of British women seems to demonstrate that even moderate alcohol consumption -- whether beer or red wine or whatever -- significantly increases a woman's risk of various cancers, and that the risk increases with each additional regular drink:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-02/...nt_10894798.htm

I doubt that this finding will be trumpeted at such places as the so-called "Recovery" board, but there it is.

My own feeling is that the scientific findings will continue to go up and down on the topic of alcohol. But, in any case, celebrations of red wine as a Mormonism-refuting health food seem to have been premature.

Is Xinhua where you're getting all your news these days? As long you are, it might be a good idea to educate yourself a little on topics such as Tibet:

Tibet has been an inseparable part of China from ancient times, and it is the Chinese people's common wish to safeguard the unification of the country

or that, according to China's tu quoque report on human rights in the United States, the United States:

...[commits] widespread human rights abuses on its own territory...

[has imposed] increasing number of restrictions...on civil rights...

...racial discrimination prevails in "every aspect of social life"...

...[suffers from] gender-based discrimination in employment, and domestic violence and sexual violence toward women were quite serious...

...has a string of records of trampling on the sovereignty of and violating human rights in other countries...

etc., etc.

Seriously, Daniel you need to start looking for new sources for your news.

[Mighty Curelom]

It's silly to think of alcohol as a health food. Ex-Mormons who proclaim the health benefits of alcohol consumption are still stuck in a kind of contrarian phase of recovery, where the church isn't just wrong about everything, it's 180 degrees wrong. "Alcohol isn't bad for you--in fact, it's good for you!" Well...no. It's not. (Neither is smoking, incidentally. )

But here's the thing: it doesn't have to be good for you. It doesn't have to lower rates of heart disease or reduce the risk of certain kinds of cancer. If you like a glass of wine with dinner or a few beers on the weekend, great. You don't need further justification.

The problem with the word of wisdom is that it doesn't teach wisdom. It isn't "wise." Followers of the so-called Word of Wisdom are doing nothing more than participating in an act of slavish, unthinking obedience to a set of inflexible rules. The reasoning behind the rules is absent. Coffee is prohibited, but we're not told why. Is it the caffeine? The tannins? The acidity? The heat? Why is cold coffee forbidden, but caffeinated soft drinks are OK? If you don't know what it is about coffee that's so bad, you don't know how to apply this "wisdom" to other foods.

It also treats certain foods in what I consider to be a superstitious manner. Not only is coffee, tea, etc not good for you, but you are to NEVER TOUCH IT--as if the mere act of drinking a cup of tea is a moral evil equivalent to drowning a puppy. I've seen Mormons recoil from otherwise innocuous beverages like they thought touching them would cause immediate and painful death. The word of wisdom, in its inflexibility and absence of moderation, has produced a culture with an irrational and virtually comical fear of benign substances. It has also created a culture of obesity, since Mormons take the silence of the issues of overconsumption and exercise as tacit approval to overindulge. (On the other hand, perhaps it wouldn't matter anyway...Mormons might just ignore such strictures as they ignore the suggestion to eat meat sparingly.)