Moderate Alcohol Consumption

[krose]

As for divine revelation - you can compare what what commonly taught as dietary wisdom in Joseph's day vs. what actually made it into the Word of Wisdom. The former proved riddled with error. The latter remains as sound and wise.

Okay, I'll bite. What were the experts telling everyone they should be eating in the mid 19th century?

I found an interesting Dialogue article entitled "The Word of Wisdom in Early Nineteenth-Century Perspective." Here is a relevant excerpt:

To judge from the authors of the most influential texts of the dayâ??such as those selected by Robley Dunglison for a popular bibliography in The Medical Student (1837) or the initial (1848) American Medical Association bibliography of significant medical worksâ??the leading physicians of Joseph Smith's day would have found a little to criticize but much more to commend in the Mormon health code. Indeed, while historians have generally stressed the similarity of the Word of Wisdom to some of the precepts of botanic doctors, orâ??even more soâ??the radical health reformers of the day, as good if not a better match can be made to the mainstream views of orthodox medicine.

[krose]

We have further revelation that "Hot Drink: is in reference to Tea and Coffee.

No, you don't. There was no "further revelation" on the subject. If you think that when a church leader expresses his opinion about what a phrase means, that amounts to revelation, you open the door to a lot of "doctrine" that is regularly dismissed on this board.

[captain-jack]

No, you don't. There was no "further revelation" on the subject. If you think that when a church leader expresses his opinion about what a phrase means, that amounts to revelation, you open the door to a lot of "doctrine" that is regularly dismissed on this board.

lds.org

Tea and coffee (see D&C 89:9; latter-day prophets have taught that the term "hot drinks," as written in this verse, refers to tea and coffee).

Elder Boyd K. Packer Ensign article - The Word of Wisdom: The Principle and the Promises from 1996:

It’s well known that tea, coffee, liquor, and tobacco are against it.

Tell us again how you know that it is just an opinion? Or are you presuming to tell us what we believe and do not believe?

[Luigi]

Maybe. Whatever. A rather pathetically transparent attempt to change the subject and, by going back on the offensive, to score a cheap shot.

You chose to disparage science's ability to evaluate your dogma and I simply pointed out your dogma has done far less good for the health and survival of human beings than science. Would you disagree? I think you would recognize that is true but for some reason you feel that when science contradicts your faith it is shaky and unreliable. It isn't perfect, yes, particularly when we are talking about things like health which have innumerable confounding variables. But on the whole science has been a much more reliable tool in improving the health of human beings than any alleged revelation.

I'm quite convinced, myself, that the drinking of water has saved more lives than any scientific findings and medical advancements have ever saved.

True. Consequently when it comes to applying knowledge to improving human health I would certainly put drinking water above applying science but I would put using revelation from Joseph Smith dead last.

[Macabus]

One study indicates that dealcoholized beer may actually have health benefits over regular beer, or ethanol with water. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/478636

(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15166655 is a link to the research itself)

So, dealcohilzed beer can help the heart and have all of those positive effects without the nasty alcohol. At what ABV does a drink become "Alcoholic" and become restricted by the Word of Wisdom? .5%? There are also dealcoholized wines processed with reverse osmosis that provide the additional proteins produced during fermentation, but almost all of the alcohol is removed-and they beat alcoholized European wines in taste competitions! It all comes down to an acceptable ABV.

[thesometimesaint]

Macabus:

I'm not an absolutist. I'm fine with the miniscule amounts found in things like "Near Beer", though I hate the taste; various extracts, and flavorings; and the very low amount of alcohol left after cooking with wine, and the like.

OTOH If you are swigging at the cooking wine while making dinner, you're most likely not following the WoW.

[Jaybear]

Macabus:

I'm not an absolutist. I'm fine with the miniscule amounts found in things like "Near Beer", though I hate the taste; various extracts, and flavorings; and the very low amount of alcohol left after cooking with wine, and the like.

OTOH If you are swigging at the cooking wine while making dinner, you're most likely not following the WoW.

How about tiramisu. The last tiramisu I enjoyed was not only made with rum, and expresso, but with Marsala wine.

If that is not permitted, how do any of the LDS in Italy maintain temple worthy status.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

Ever try chocolate Tiramisu?

[Jaybear]

Jaybear:

Ever try chocolate Tiramisu?

Does raspberry chocolate Tiramisu count?

[krose]

Tell us again how you know that it is just an opinion? Or are you presuming to tell us what we believe and do not believe?

How do you know it's not? We're always being told that not every word that falls from an apostle or prophet's mouth is revelation or doctrine, no matter how many times it's repeated. If you can show me the text of the "revelation" that states that "hot drinks" specifically means coffee and tea, you might have something.

We've covered this question a few times before, and I still don't see a revelation, any more than there was a revelation to deny blacks the priesthood. It looks to be more of a traditional understanding held to over the years.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

Possibly depending on receipt used.

[captain-jack]

How do you know it's not? We're always being told that not every word that falls from an apostle or prophet's mouth is revelation or doctrine, no matter how many times it's repeated. If you can show me the text of the "revelation" that states that "hot drinks" specifically means coffee and tea, you might have something.

If a prophet "clarifies" doctrine, such as it is written in the D&C, then I consider the clarification doctrine as well. What else could it mean?

[Theo]

Dihydrogen monoxide is one of the deadliest substances on earth. It causes thousands of deaths and billions of dollars in property damage every year. As little as a thimbleful can kill you. It is a major component of acid rain. It is also a solvent used in many industrial applications and is present in toilet cleaners and other cleansers. It is commonly used in nuclear power plants. All hot drinks and alcoholic beverages are contaminated with it, as are all major rivers, streams, lakes, and oceans throughout the world. It is so addictive that, once you are exposed to it, withdrawal means certain death within a few days. Consequently, evil men have added it to drinks like Coca Cola, Mountain Dew, Pepsi, and even baby formula. It kills more people than caffeine and alcohol and all illegal drugs combined every year. I do not understand how God can warn us against alcohol or hot drinks, but not even mention dihydrogen monoxide.

Hmmmm...Dihydrogen...H2....monoxide....O...I get it!

You're a funny guy/gal!

Seriuosly though, I don't drink water because fish have sex in it...

Just sayin'...

Theo

[Theo]

One study indicates that dealcoholized beer may actually have health benefits over regular beer, or ethanol with water. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/478636

(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15166655 is a link to the research itself)

So, dealcohilzed beer can help the heart and have all of those positive effects without the nasty alcohol. At what ABV does a drink become "Alcoholic" and become restricted by the Word of Wisdom? .5%? There are also dealcoholized wines processed with reverse osmosis that provide the additional proteins produced during fermentation, but almost all of the alcohol is removed-and they beat alcoholized European wines in taste competitions! It all comes down to an acceptable ABV.

The only problem I see with this rationale is...every one I've talked to about NA beer said the didn't like the taste. I've made it my mission to my beer drinking friends and family to show them that they do make very good NA beers and wines...imports even...that I've enjoyed emensely, truly good stuff.

They still refuse to drink it which makes it clear to me that it's NOT about the taste at all. If it were just as good as products containing alcohol no one would EVER drink alcohol containing beer or wine soley for the taste.

Same with decaf coffee...my FiL still swears he can tell the difference in the taste between decaf and regular even if he adds cream and sugar...that's BS.

It ain't about the taste...it's about the buzz.

My opinion.

Theo

[Mighty Curelom]

The only problem I see with this rationale is...every one I've talked to about NA beer said the didn't like the taste. I've made it my mission to my beer drinking friends and family to show them that they do make very good NA beers and wines...imports even...that I've enjoyed emensely, truly good stuff.

They still refuse to drink it which makes it clear to me that it's NOT about the taste at all. If it were just as good as products containing alcohol no one would EVER drink alcohol containing beer or wine soley for the taste.

Same with decaf coffee...my FiL still swears he can tell the difference in the taste between decaf and regular even if he adds cream and sugar...that's BS.

It ain't about the taste...it's about the buzz.

My opinion.

Theo

I drink decaff coffee all the time. I like the taste of coffee and sometimes I don't want the extra caffeine. So much for your theory that "no one would EVER drink" coffee without the caffeine.

[thesometimesaint]

MC:

I've heard that people can get used to just about anything. If they work hard enough at it.

[jadams_4242]

Over the past several years, some studies have suggested that moderate alcohol consumption is beneficial for cardiac health. Although medical researchers have been very cautious about this -- frequently advising non-drinkers not to take up drinking on the basis of the findings -- certain (in my experience, mostly secularist) ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons have loudly crowed that science is proving the Word of Wisdom false and redundantly demonstrating Mormons to be (once again) deluded buffoons.

Now, though, a very large study of British women seems to demonstrate that even moderate alcohol consumption -- whether beer or red wine or whatever -- significantly increases a woman's risk of various cancers, and that the risk increases with each additional regular drink:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-02/...nt_10894798.htm

I doubt that this finding will be trumpeted at such places as the so-called "Recovery" board, but there it is.

My own feeling is that the scientific findings will continue to go up and down on the topic of alcohol. But, in any case, celebrations of red wine as a Mormonism-refuting health food seem to have been premature.

Alcohol, as coffee, without any doubt changes ones personality to something that is not normal, some can get an "attitude" some can get "mean", some get a "lose" tongue. It does not take numerous drinks to get in these non normal states either; one drink of alcohol or coffee will do it;

[Cold Steel]

My own feeling is that the scientific findings will continue to go up and down on the topic of alcohol. But, in any case, celebrations of red wine as a Mormonismâ??refuting health food seem to have been premature.

Not only that, but the antioxidants in wine can also be obtained by drinking a good non-alcoholic grape extract. And it's only the red wine that's been pinpointed as being beneficial.

BTW, your ativar has become increasingly menacing, going from donuts to Jabba to Fu Manchu (or whoever). Are you becoming hostile?

Would you like to TALK about it?

[marnieh]

Over the past several years, some studies have suggested that moderate alcohol consumption is beneficial for cardiac health. Although medical researchers have been very cautious about this -- frequently advising non-drinkers not to take up drinking on the basis of the findings -- certain (in my experience, mostly secularist) ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons have loudly crowed that science is proving the Word of Wisdom false and redundantly demonstrating Mormons to be (once again) deluded buffoons.

Now, though, a very large study of British women seems to demonstrate that even moderate alcohol consumption -- whether beer or red wine or whatever -- significantly increases a woman's risk of various cancers, and that the risk increases with each additional regular drink:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-02/...nt_10894798.htm

I doubt that this finding will be trumpeted at such places as the so-called "Recovery" board, but there it is.

My own feeling is that the scientific findings will continue to go up and down on the topic of alcohol. But, in any case, celebrations of red wine as a Mormonism-refuting health food seem to have been premature.

I never understood the Mormon prohibition against the use of alcohol in the first place. If it was ok with the Jesus of the Bible, it's ok with me.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

I never understood the Mormon prohibition against the use of alcohol in the first place. If it was ok with the Jesus of the Bible, it's ok with me.

Its possible that Jesus may have never drank alcohol in his life. The historical Catholic debate around the use of alcoholic wine revolved around the myth that there are no known non-alcoholic wines in Bible times, and that the preservation of grape juice was not made possible until Welch's grape juice, so wine stored in wine skins must be fermented. That is wrong, one was able to preserved it by boiling it down, then it was less liable to ferment, it is put in skins to exclude the air. It ordinarily has not a particle of intoxicating quality, and can last as long as two years. That is what are called "dubs", and was a common beverage they mixed with water and drank and was commonly called "wine". In fact in Rome during New Testament times, the "best" wines were those whose alcoholic potency had been removed, as the fermentation would break down the sugars.

[sethpayne]

Its possible that Jesus may have never drank alcohol in his life.

Absolutely and totally absurd.

[thesometimesaint]

Ray Callis Hatton III:

"Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."

[staccato]

Alcohol, as coffee, without any doubt changes ones personality to something that is not normal, some can get an "attitude" some can get "mean", some get a "lose" tongue. It does not take numerous drinks to get in these non normal states either; one drink of alcohol or coffee will do it;

Oh, thanks for the priceless entertainment this fine Sunday morning!

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Absolutely and totally absurd.

You think that, but that is because you don't know any better. As you see, not even my fellow Mormons are willing to stick their neck out under the asumption that the debate has long been settled. Having reviewed the arguments, they are full of false presumptions, and seem totally unaware of the existance of dibbs, dispite it is still being used by moslums to this day and is found in Greek literature; from Aristotle, the Greek Philosopher to Athenaeus, the Grammarian (about A.D. 200).

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Ray Callis Hatton III:

"Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."

Finally someone explaining their problem. So, now I can address it.

Aside from being simply an analogy, since the word could have meant both fermented wine and grape juice, does only fermenting wine have this problem in wine bottles? Even preserved grape juice (dubbs) if not treated properly will still start to spoil, turning into vinegar, releasing CO2, and finally will also burst an old wine skin, especially if there are still the remnant of (naturally introduced) yeast from the last batch of new wine it held.