The bulls-eyes continue

[Sevenbak]

In the spirit of Consiglieri's excellent post, the run continues... These are mostly about the Pre-Existence, a unique LDS doctrine among Christianity. Also, some definite similarities to things associated with temple worship. Most of these are apocryphal writings, Enoch, Pistis Sophia, etc,. I found this list compiled on a site run by "Nazarene Essenes", which calls it'self a "Buddhist branch of original Christianity"

Enjoy!

And the Angel said to Enoch sit down and write All of the spirits of men and those who have not yet been born yet, the places which have been prepared for them . All things were prepared since before the foundation of the world" 2 Enoch 9:

"Enoch answered the people saying hear my children ,before anything was and before the whole creation took place, the Lord established the age of creation; and after that he made all of the creation both visible and invisible and after that he created man in his own image. He gave him eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to think with and a mind to council. I swear to you my children that before man was in the womb of his mother we were prepared, each individual and a place for each spirit that each should sojourn here in his proper time, that man might be tested in the balance ..." 2 Enoch 17:

" Enoch went to the Lord who taught him all about creation and his works... He saw matter unorganized before the creation...the council in heaven... He saw Satan aspire and get cast out to become the foundation of lower things, beyond which there ii great darkness and nothing"

2 Enoch 11:

" Then the angel Braboil said: Sit down and write all the spirits of men, all those who have not been born yet, and the places which have been prepared for them. All these things were prepared since before the foundation of the world. And I wrote down all the affairs of men. Secrets of Enoch 10: (Vaillant)

"And everything which is found in this world has been before, and has passed before him and has been arranged [organized] before Him . . . all the creations of the world which have existed in each generation, before they came into this world, have existed before Him in their true form, even all the souls of the children of man have been before they came down to the world, have all been formed before Him in heaven in the very likeness that they have in this world." Zohar III:61

"When an ancient spirit is about to come down . . . to that region which they call the kingdom of Adam, that Archon who is at the head of the place gives the preexistent soul a cup of forgetfulness..."

Pistis Sophia

"For the worlds exist, so that intelligent spirits might come and inhabit them...There are many mansions, degrees, and worlds, and they all have but one law.If you keep the law you too can become a creator of worlds." 2 Coptic Gnostic Work

"As he left Heaven to come down and undergo his earthly trials, Adam recelved affectionate farewell embraces from all his faithful children. He put on his physical body and went forth to oppose the primal enemy. Before the creation of this world, the third Sent One (as Adam is called) came into the free space and began to organize this world." Berlin Papyrus 8502

"The world has existed through the ages so that the spirits destined to come here might fulfill

their number and destiny and here make their choice between the upper and lower worlds both of which are represented here so that when the bodies the righteous are resurrected they might go to eternal light." Clementine Recognitions III:1

"Peter taught that God's plan or decree was presented in the presence of all the first angels and which laid down an eternal law for everyone in which all spirits and things would be judged and sent to their proper place. ... Pre-existent man had been around along time before it was decided to create this earth .The whole thing was produced when the time came for his benefit; and though he was created last of all to take it over, in his real nature he is older than any of it .For this reason the world has existed through ages so that the spirits destined to come here might fulfill their number and here make their choice between the upper and lower worlds ,both of which are represented here ,so that when their bodies are resurrected the blessed might go to eternal light and the unrighteous for their impure acts be wrapped in spiritual flame .In this world every man is given a fair chance to show his real desires.... God considered all of the evil that would be among those whom he created, but as one who knew there was no other way to achieve the purpose for which they were created, he went ahead . Evil is forced on no one, it is only there for those who want it and by his own free will deliberately subjects himself to it. God could easily wipe them out but he suffers them to carry on till the appointed day in which the deeds of all men shall be judged.....

Now an angel taught Abraham and showed him the resurrection of the dead which was to come and the judgment which is to come with the reward of the good and the punishment of the bad ,explaining to him how all things are governed by a just law...." Clementine Recognitions II:23-25,40

Mandaean Writings: the Mandaeans of southern Mesopotamia

GINZA:

"Go down to that place where there is no occupied place, where there is no world, and create for us another world after the fashion of the Sons of Salvation ...

God started out by creating a topos where His children could settle, there to recognize and to serve Him as their Father...

Adam., this is the place where you are going to live; your wife Eve will come and Join you here, and here your progeny will thrive...

The Father taught me about the worlds of the Lord and the Glory that abides in them. The Adam of light treads upon the earth's trembling foundation which is laid in the midst of the worlds...

There is no rivalry or competition among them, but they are glorious in their firmaments, and there ia agreement among them, fitting together like the lashes to the eye. All rejoice in each other, each being more glorious and bright than the other...

'No words can describe Thy power over all Thy worlds...'

When beings from different worlds meet, they exchange garments and treasures an identification a sign of mutual esteem. For the creation of endless worlds follows a single pattern -- that laid down by God the creator. The planet say, 'Come Lord of the gods, Lord of the entire cosmos.' (They rejoice and say) 'Come be our head, be the head of our whole world'..

"In the million of worlds that God has made for his sons every world is different from the other and wonderful in its own radiance.

Among ten thousand times ten thousand world you will find no two alike. Before this world, there had already been a thousand thousand mysteries and a myriad myriad of planets each with their own mysteries or ordinances.

He who has fulfilled all the ordinances and has done good work cannot be held back. We are taught the principles of salvation, so that we cannot be held back in this world...

When Adam stood praying for light and knowledge, a helper came to him and gave to him a garment and told him, 'Those men who gave you the garment will assist you throughout your life until you are ready to leave earth.'..

When Adam was created, he was found in a deep sleep, from which he was awakened by the helper who forthwith began to instruct him. And at his death also, the Sent Ones came to take Adam back to the great first Paternal House and to the places in which he formerly dwelt.

Second-- when Adam awoke, be faced the light and called for help. The Lord Himself approached him, in glory, and took him by the palm of the right hand instructed him and calmed him and Then he comforted Eve. 'In this way, I have brought joy and aid to his descendants.' The Sent Ones came to bring hope to Adam, who was in, the image of God...

At the creation, God gave orders that the angels should come to keep Adam company. At the beginning, it was the Lord Himself and two companions who instructed Adam and Eve in everything.

'Go down into the world, Adam, and grow up in the body, in that garment which has been assigned to you. Go down and grow up in the ordinances, that the ordinances may be magnified by you, that your progeny may thereby be firmly established. The Man that taught the elect righteous and the Nazoreans, who were to exist upon the earth in the preexistence, said, 'When you beget generations, and when you teach them their knowledge, explain to them, show them, and tell them about the rites which you have performed.' The wholesome things were transplanted

from the world above"

The evil spirits, who claim this world for their own, resent the Sent One's instruction. 'These three men are in the world,' they say, 'but they were not really men. They are light and glory, and they have come down to little 'Enosh' [that's physical man -- Adam] who is helpless and alone in the world. They are intruding on our world. The children of men have taken over the earth. They are really strangers who speak the language of the three men. They have accepted the teachings of the three men, and rejected in our own world. They refuse to acknowledge our kingdom and our glory '

Thus, the evil ones plotted to overthrow Adam, who was hoping for Mandadihaya (Teacher of Life), the messenger from the Father, to come-and give him aid and support.

When; Adam called upon God, the Great Spirit sent them from the landâ?¦

The Lord and two companions taught Adam and Eve all the ordinances and blessed them. 'The Great Light planted us here and gave us helpers who taught us the prayer of Adam in the world.' Three angels were sent to teach Adam and Eve the law of chastity, and to instruct them to be true and faithful when misfortune came upon them, and to dedicate all of their property to the needy and the poor -- the rule which is binding upon all the elect. They were to call upon God without ceasing, in the name of the Son, and not to trust in the things of this world. "

Prayerbook of the Mandaeans

"When Adam was placed on earth, three messengers were sent to oversee him with myself at their head... I taught Adam and Eve the hymns, and the order of prayer, and the ordinances by which would now help one to return to the presence of the Father." In sending three, God says to them, giving them instructions. He said to the pure sent one, His Son, 'Go call Adam and Eve and all their posterity and teach them concerning everything about the Kingdom of Light and the Worlds of Light. Be friendly with Adam and keep him company, you and the two angels which will be with you. Warn them against Satan; also, teach them chastity'.

The helper came and awakened the Lord of Mysteries, who is Adam. For Adam went through all the ordinances, including baptism, washings' and anointings,"

From The Books of Jeu

"In any world as a Yeu becomes a Father in a new world, the Fathers then appoint new Yeus (Jehovahs) for new worlds who in turn will become Fathers. Each Yeu has created for its hosts ten thousand times ten thousand. The farther advanced one is, the faster one moves forward To them that have shall be given...We are passed on from hand to hand, from degree to degree !! Our example is Adam, who, having been established in Christ and God, next established his son Seth in the second order which was to follow Him on up...

I will teach you all of the ordinances necessary, that you might be purged by degrees and progress in the next life. These things make it possible for you to achieve other places (other topol), but they must be performed in this life. Unless one performs them here, he cannot become a 'Son of Light'. By very definition, the 'Sons of Light' are those that are perfect in the ordinances...these ordinances are very secret...'Sons of Light' in whatever age they lived, and they receive whatever they desire, they are those upon the right hand of the Father, for it is by their faithfulness in these things that they show they are worthy to return and inherit the kingdom. Without the ordinances, therefore, there is no foothold or foundation to anything in this life... If you want to go to the Father you must pass through the veilâ?¦

At this sign the angels move the veil aside and you enter into the presence of the Father who gives you his name and seal ... The world is a system of veils or vestments each a room of the Temple. Man is organized on the same principle. There is a place from which all worlds take their origin and prototype a place of shadowless light and indescribable joy... and there is a veil between the worlds Above the veil are the heavens .The Firmament is equipped with veils and gates that are guarded far removed from the world in which men dwell."

From The Pistis Sophia (Ancient Egyptian Coptic Document)

"There is an appointed place for everything in the Cosmos. There is 'numeristics': there is a numbering of souls for each world and a dispensation is not completed until the teleos-number (completed number) has been fulfilled for that dispensation. Every soul stays in its appointed place until it has fulfilled the task for the topos, for that place... After the plan of creation was

accepted, it was communicated to all the other worlds, and they approved and rejoiced... All other worlds look to the same God also to the common Son.... I found an ordinance inscribed upon my garment

written in five words. 'It is the garment which belonged to you in the pre-existence, from the beginning, and when your time come on the earth, you will remove it and return home to us.' In this garment, it had the five marks "

From Second Coptic Gnostic Work

"For the world exist, so that intelligent spirits might come and inhabit them...

There are many mansions, regions, spaces, heavens degrees, and worlds and they all have but one law. If you keep. that law you too can become a creator of worlds....

Adam, finding himself alone in the dreary world knew that he could not save himself. So he called mightily upon God for a helper. It is because Adam received power to call upon, the holy and perfect name, that be was able to establish the plan of life in the new world."

From Papyrus Berolinensis

"Creation is organization and God is ever bringing order into the universe and

He is progressively ever preparing and renewing worlds for the righteous...

At the time of the creation, the great thought came to the elements, united with them, spirit joining with matter."

From The Berlin Papyrus 8502

"The first man was the third of the Sent Ones-- the Father, the Son, and Adam...As he left Heaven to come down and undergo his earthly trials, Adam received affectionate farewell embraces from all his faithful children. He put on his physical body and went forth to oppose the primal enemy. Before the creation of this world, the third Sent One (as Adam is called) came into the free space and began to organize this world. "This third Sent One was Christ's great coworker in the Plan of Salvation, but in all things he has precedence....

At their new birth Adam and Eve received the seals and the tokens. As Adam stood praying and supplicating, God sent someone who came. and gave him a greeting of peace (shalom), embraced him, and preached the Gospel to him"

From The Apocryphon of John

"After the physical Adam' was created, a messenger was sent to the head Of all creations, Adam, and at his call Adam awoke and said, 'How the precious, beautiful life has been planted in this place. But it is hard on me; down here.' Then the Sent One reminded Adam and said, 'But your beautiful throne awaits you, Adam. Why then do you, the image of God, sit here complaining? All this is being done for your good. I have been sent to teach you, Adam, and to free you from this world. Listen and return to the light.' Hither a messenger from the house of light was sent to fetch Adam farther when he was ready."

http://essenes.net/index.php?option=com_co...amp;Itemid=1045

[Mudcat]

I think its quite amazing how much corroboration for LDS teachings are found in the pseudepigraphical and gnostic works.

Regardless of my agreement or disagreement with the LDS teachings, I think history proves LDS were not alone in many of their teachings.

[AngelPalmoni]

Wow that is awesome! Do you do a lot of study into the things that you quote? Really class stuff...

[lostindc]

Did I just sit through a Temple session?

That was amazing.

Let me guess Joseph had access to these texts in some way or another?

[e=mc2]

Did I just sit through a Temple session?

That was amazing.

Let me guess Joseph had access to these texts in some way or another?

Of COURSE he had access to all of these. And yes he knew them in their original languages, and traveled the world over to find them, even *after* 1844 -

[lostindc]

Of COURSE he had access to all of these. And yes he knew them in their original languages, and traveled the world over to find them, even *after* 1844 -

silly me I should have known better. Well, I think it is pretty safe to say that we need to add all these books quoted to obvious collect of books that were in the grand Palmyra library.

[jadams_4242]

I think its quite amazing how much corroboration for LDS teachings are found in the pseudepigraphical and gnostic works.

Regardless of my agreement or disagreement with the LDS teachings, I think history proves LDS were not alone in many of their teachings.

And that is so true; Too many people beleive we invented these doctrine principles; When this church is the "restored" true gospel; it is the church of Jesus Christ, most everything that gos on in it today has been practiced or understood of the gospel in ancient days thruout history; We can trace issues clear back to the begining of christianity and before.

We dont claim to be the only church on earth; we claim, {oops! i meant "know"} to be the "restoration" of the gospel.

[Mudcat]

And that is so true; Too many people beleive we invented these doctrine principles; When this church is the "restored" true gospel; it is the church of Jesus Christ, most everything that gos on in it today has been practiced or understood of the gospel in ancient days thruout history; We can trace issues clear back to the begining of christianity and before.

We dont claim to be the only church on earth; we claim, {oops! i meant "know"} to be the "restoration" of the gospel.

Hi J,

Haven't seen you round in a bit, and hope you are well and life is kind.

In response though, I don't see the cited works as so much of a tracing back to what was early Christianity, rather a tracing back to what was rejected by early Christianity. Perhaps even Judaism, in regards to Enoch.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[lostindc]

Hi J,

Haven't seen you round in a bit, and hope you are well and life is kind.

In response though, I don't see the cited works as so much of a tracing back to what was early Christianity, rather a tracing back to what was rejected by early Christianity. Perhaps even Judaism, in regards to Enoch.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Either way you can interpret what it matches is best, the fact is, the Gospel according to the Church was restored and the elements that it is comprised of are slowly coming out of ancient religious texts that are being discovered and translated.

[Sevenbak]

I think its quite amazing how much corroboration for LDS teachings are found in the pseudepigraphical and gnostic works.

Regardless of my agreement or disagreement with the LDS teachings, I think history proves LDS were not alone in many of their teachings.

For me, it comes down to only 2 possibilities. Either these are eternal truths dissipated and passed down through the ages and dispersed across continents and peoples, from the Adamic and Enoch eras, now restored in their fulness in these last days... or they are heresies, instilled in the hearts of men by the devil, across millennia and continents, for the purpose of deception.

As I see it, these two camps exist.

In the words of one of my favorite movies... "There can be only one."

[Sevenbak]

Wow that is awesome! Do you do a lot of study into the things that you quote? Really class stuff...

No, I stumbled across it. Many of the extra biblical books are available though online. Here's by far the the best source I've found.http://fam-faerch.dk/pseudigrapher/Index.html

Did I just sit through a Temple session?That was amazing.Let me guess Joseph had access to these texts in some way or another?

Yeah, that's the standard reply from most. That JS was a well read person for a poor farmboy, eh?

[Mudcat]

In the words of one of my favorite movies... "There can be only one."

Aye laddie your right.

But who is the one...?

is it

Conner McSevenbak of the clan McSevenbak

or is it

(from my favorite tv series....till it got all hoakie, just like the movies did)

Duncan McMudcat of the clan McMudcat

granted a McMudcat sounds like something you might order for breakfast at a North Vietnamese "Golden Arches".

or could it be....

Exmormon Atheist of the clan McAtheist

and if that be true, there could be only none.

[Sevenbak]

Aye laddie your right.

But who is the one...?

is it

Conner McSevenbak of the clan McSevenbak

or is it

(from my favorite tv series....till it got all hoakie, just like the movies did)

Duncan McMudcat of the clan McMudcat

granted a McMudcat sounds like something you might order for breakfast at a North Vietnamese "Golden Arches".

or could it be....

Exmormon Atheist of the clan McAtheist

and if that be true, there could be only none.

Well, since you put it that way... In these last days, we are part of the 'gathering', donthaknow. Best not lose your head.

[BCSpace]

I think its quite amazing how much corroboration for LDS teachings are found in the pseudepigraphical and gnostic works.

Not to mention the regular Christian Fathers as well.

[Zakuska]

Hi J,

Haven't seen you round in a bit, and hope you are well and life is kind.

In response though, I don't see the cited works as so much of a tracing back to what was early Christianity, rather a tracing back to what was rejected by early Christianity. Perhaps even Judaism, in regards to Enoch.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Correction. Rome Rejected Enoch, Africa canonized it.

[JLFuller]

Did I just sit through a Temple session?

That was amazing.

Let me guess Joseph had access to these texts in some way or another?

[JLFuller]

Hi J,

Haven't seen you round in a bit, and hope you are well and life is kind.

In response though, I don't see the cited works as so much of a tracing back to what was early Christianity, rather a tracing back to what was rejected by early Christianity. Perhaps even Judaism, in regards to Enoch.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

It has been explained to us that not everything in these books is 100%. One has to have the Holy Ghost with him to know which is accurate and which is not. These books are just as subject to mankind's manipulation as the bible.

[Sevenbak]

Correction. Rome Rejected Enoch, Africa canonized it.

And yet, he's quoted in the scriptures kept by Rome.

[Mudcat]

Correction. Rome Rejected Enoch, Africa canonized it.

Correction. I think you are talking about 1 Enoch.

I think the OP is referring to the Slavonic 2 Enoch which isn't found canonized anywhere that I am aware.

[Mudcat]

It has been explained to us that not everything in these books is 100%. One has to have the Holy Ghost with him to know which is accurate and which is not. These books are just as subject to mankind's manipulation as the bible.

JL,

From what I have seen posted in relation to non-canonized writings that relate to Christianity of Judaism, I would speculate that having a eye for finding teachings in them that find correlation with LDS teachings, could be as useful as the Holy Ghost on the matter.

I'm curious JL, when you say that one has to have the Holy Ghost with him, are you referring to only those who you believe have the Gift of the HG through an LDS priest, or do you think those outside of your faith could possibly receive such insights?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[etana]

What a great post Sevenback. All of that in one place.

You can also get public domain translations of many pseudepigraphal texts at sacred-texts.com.

I believe the apocalypse of Abraham (from the Slavonic Palea) has a pre-existant spirit reference as well.

[Sevenbak]

What a great post Sevenback. All of that in one place.

You can also get public domain translations of many pseudepigraphal texts at sacred-texts.com.

I believe the apocalypse of Abraham (from the Slavonic Palea) has a pre-existant spirit reference as well.

Thanks, but I didn't compile the list. And yes, it's a very partial list of what is out there.

Truth is eternal!

[Nevo]

I found this list compiled on a site run by "Nazarene Essenes", which calls it'self a "Buddhist branch of original Christianity"

Enjoy!

2 Enoch 9:

2 Enoch 17:

2 Enoch 11:

Secrets of Enoch 10: (Vaillant)

Zohar III:61

Pistis Sophia

2 Coptic Gnostic Work

Berlin Papyrus 8502

Clementine Recognitions III:1

Clementine Recognitions II:23-25,40

Ginza

Prayerbook of the Mandaeans

From The Books of Jeu

From The Pistis Sophia (Ancient Egyptian Coptic Document)

From Second Coptic Gnostic Work

From Papyrus Berolinensis

From The Berlin Papyrus 8502

From The Apocryphon of John

Are any of these references valid? After doing a good deal of looking online, I haven't been able to corroborate a single quote yet. Could someone kindly post the correct references for any or all of the passages quoted in the OP?

[thatjimguy]

Are these from the Dead Sea scrolls? If not, where. (and what did the dead seas scrolls say anyway?)

[Sevenbak]

Are any of these references valid? After doing a good deal of looking online, I haven't been able to corroborate a single quote yet. Could someone kindly post the correct references for any or all of the passages quoted in the OP?

Really? I picked one at random and it was verified, of all places, in the Ensign. Zohar III.61 (near the bottom) An article by Hugh Nibley about the Book of Enoch, published in 1977 in the Church Magazine. My guess as a precurser to his book. Excellent stuff here too!!http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgne..._&hideNav=1

Are these from the Dead Sea scrolls? If not, where. (and what did the dead seas scrolls say anyway?)

Various extra biblical writings.