The bulls-eyes continue

[Nevo]

Really? I picked one at random and it was verified, of all places, in the Ensign.

I don't find that the least bit surprising. I suspect that virtually all of the quotes in your OP originated with Nibley. I would just like to see independent corroboration of some of them.

• The statement "Enoch went to the Lord who taught him all about creation and his works... He saw matter unorganized before the creation...the council in heaven... He saw Satan aspire and get cast out" references 2 Enoch 11:. But when one looks up 2 Enoch 11, it says nothing of the sort.
  
• The quotes attributed to Clementine Recognitions III:1 and Clementine Recognitions II:23-25,40, as far as I can tell, don't appear in the Clementine Recognitions at all.
  
• What 2 Coptic Gnostic Work states: "For the worlds exist, so that intelligent spirits might come and inhabit them...There are many mansions, degrees, and worlds, and they all have but one law. If you keep the law you too can become a creator of worlds"?
  
• What Prayerbook of the Mandaeans states: "When Adam was placed on earth, three messengers were sent to oversee him with myself at their head... I taught Adam and Eve the hymns, and the order of prayer, and the ordinances by which would now help one to return to the presence of the Father." In sending three, God says to them, giving them instructions. He said to the pure sent one, His Son, 'Go call Adam and Eve and all their posterity and teach them concerning everything about the Kingdom of Light and the Worlds of Light. Be friendly with Adam and keep him company, you and the two angels which will be with you. Warn them against Satan; also, teach them chastity'. The helper came and awakened the Lord of Mysteries, who is Adam. For Adam went through all the ordinances, including baptism, washings' and anointings"?
  
• Where in the Berlin Papyrus 8502 does it say: "The first man was the third of the Sent Ones-- the Father, the Son, and Adam...As he left Heaven to come down and undergo his earthly trials, Adam received affectionate farewell embraces from all his faithful children. He put on his physical body and went forth to oppose the primal enemy. Before the creation of this world, the third Sent One (as Adam is called) came into the free space and began to organize this world. This third Sent One was Christ's great coworker in the Plan of Salvation, but in all things he has precedence. . . . At their new birth Adam and Eve received the seals and the tokens. As Adam stood praying and supplicating, God sent someone who came. and gave him a greeting of peace (shalom), embraced him, and preached the Gospel to him"?
  

Etc.

[lostindc]

bump, is there a response regarding the sources?

[Garrote]

bump, is there a response regarding the sources?

I have been looking online and can't verify these. To the OP do you have a site from a university that I can link to?

[JLFuller]

The problem I encounter is finding ANY English translations online. The secular versions would be best. Their translators don't have an denominational power base to protect.

[lostindc]

The problem I encounter is finding ANY English translations online. The secular versions would be best. Their translators don't have an denominational power base to protect.

The Enoch quotes appear to come from a French translation from A. Vaillant Le livre des secrets d'Henoch, Texte slave et traduction francaise, Paris 1952 (based on m. U)

I am going to see if I can dig into this and others.

[Sevenbak]

If it was lifted from Nibley, do we have any reason to doubt Nibley's research?

[Sevenbak]

The Enoch quotes appear to come from a French translation from A. Vaillant Le livre des secrets d'Henoch, Texte slave et traduction francaise, Paris 1952 (based on m. U)

I am going to see if I can dig into this and others.

The more eyes the better, I say. Would be great if these can be substantiated.

[JLFuller]

If it was lifted from Nibley, do we have any reason to doubt Nibley's research?

I don't doubt Nibley, but secular translations provide an additional dimension. Nibley has a pro-Mormon bent which I almost always agree with but having a secular translation makes it easier to support his conclusions. But they are not determinative, just helpful. "By the mouth of two witnesses.", even Hugh Nibley requires another confirming voice.

[Sevenbak]

I don't doubt Nibley, but secular translations provide an additional dimension. Nibley has a pro-Mormon bent which I almost always agree with but having a secular translation makes it easier to support his conclusions. But they are not determinative, just helpful. "By the mouth of two witnesses.", even Hugh Nibley requires another confirming voice.

Well said!

[JLFuller]

The Enoch quotes appear to come from a French translation from A. Vaillant Le livre des secrets d'Henoch, Texte slave et traduction francaise, Paris 1952 (based on m. U)

I am going to see if I can dig into this and others.

Here again we get into the problem of translating translations of translations. How many iterations have there been and did they know what they were talking about? Do ancient idioms translate well into English? I think these reasons are enough to doubt these texts until we know the answers. We can still enjoy reading them. But we shouldn't consider them as determinative of anything substantial.

[lostindc]

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=57#24

I am looking through Nibley's sources for this linked text. I think this may help in finding what the full texts and titles are for the quotes from the original text.

From what I am finding (in the linked text) his sources at matching up with any English translation I can find. I have a feeling that we have some incorrectly cited texts and perhaps some texts that will not be known for awhile because they come from Arabic or other languages.

[Nevo]

If it was lifted from Nibley, do we have any reason to doubt Nibley's research?

Yes. Nibley was known to be sloppy in his use of sources, sometimes mistranslating or otherwise misrepresenting them.

From the OP:

"When Adam was placed on earth, three messengers were sent to oversee him with myself at their head. . . . I taught Adam and Eve the hymns, and the order of prayer, and the ordinances by which would now help one to return to the presence of the Father." In sending three, God says to them, giving them instructions. He said to the pure sent one, His Son, 'Go call Adam and Eve and all their posterity and teach them concerning everything about the Kingdom of Light and the Worlds of Light. Be friendly with Adam and keep him company, you and the two angels which will be with you. Warn them against Satan; also, teach them chastity.'" (attributed to the Prayerbook of the Mandaeans)

From Hugh Nibley, Temple and Cosmos, p. 302:

"When Adam was placed on earth, three messengers were sent to oversee him, with myself at their head," says the Lord to the apostles during the forty days. (142) "I taught Adam and Eve the hymns, and the order of prayer, and the ordinances which would help one to return to the presence of the Father." (143) "I'm sending three, God says to them, giving them instructions. He said to the pure Sent One, his Son, 'Go call Adam and Eve and all their posterity and teach them concerning everything about the Kingdom of Light and the Worlds of Light. Be friendly with Adam and keep him company, you and the two angels which will be with you. Warn them against Satan; also, teach them chastity.' (144)"

____________________________________________

142. Cf. Werner Foerster,

Gnosis: A Selection of Gnostic Texts

, 2 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1974), 2:197; Mandaean Prayerbook No. 379, "And Hibil-Ziwa [Radiant-Abel] came and blessed three 'uthras [spirits-of-Life], And the three 'uthras blessed Adam and all his descendants" (cf. No. 42). Ethel S. Drower, tr.,

The Canonical Prayerbook of the Mandaeans

(Leiden: Brill, 1959), 292.

143. Foerster,

Gnosis

, 2:197.

144. Mark Lidzbarski,

Ginza: Der Schatz oder das grosse Buch der Mand

[Sevenbak]

OK, I think I've found the original treatise that was apparently lifted verbatim by the Nazarene Essenes.

http://www.2s2.com/chapmanresearch/user/do...eexistence.html

Not sure who this guy or his "research" outfit is, but he's obviously LDS. Taking a look at his site now.

http://www.chapmanresearch.org/Library.html

[JLFuller]

Yes. Nibley was known to be sloppy in his use of sources, sometimes mistranslating or otherwise misrepresenting them.

From the OP:

"When Adam was placed on earth, three messengers were sent to oversee him with myself at their head. . . . I taught Adam and Eve the hymns, and the order of prayer, and the ordinances by which would now help one to return to the presence of the Father." In sending three, God says to them, giving them instructions. He said to the pure sent one, His Son, 'Go call Adam and Eve and all their posterity and teach them concerning everything about the Kingdom of Light and the Worlds of Light. Be friendly with Adam and keep him company, you and the two angels which will be with you. Warn them against Satan; also, teach them chastity.'" (attributed to the Prayerbook of the Mandaeans)

From Hugh Nibley, Temple and Cosmos, p. 302:

"When Adam was placed on earth, three messengers were sent to oversee him, with myself at their head," says the Lord to the apostles during the forty days. (142) "I taught Adam and Eve the hymns, and the order of prayer, and the ordinances which would help one to return to the presence of the Father." (143) "I'm sending three, God says to them, giving them instructions. He said to the pure Sent One, his Son, 'Go call Adam and Eve and all their posterity and teach them concerning everything about the Kingdom of Light and the Worlds of Light. Be friendly with Adam and keep him company, you and the two angels which will be with you. Warn them against Satan; also, teach them chastity.' (144)"

____________________________________________

142. Cf. Werner Foerster,

Gnosis: A Selection of Gnostic Texts

, 2 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1974), 2:197; Mandaean Prayerbook No. 379, "And Hibil-Ziwa [Radiant-Abel] came and blessed three 'uthras [spirits-of-Life], And the three 'uthras blessed Adam and all his descendants" (cf. No. 42). Ethel S. Drower, tr.,

The Canonical Prayerbook of the Mandaeans

(Leiden: Brill, 1959), 292.

143. Foerster,

Gnosis

, 2:197.

144. Mark Lidzbarski,

Ginza: Der Schatz oder das grosse Buch der Mand

[Sevenbak]

Yes. Nibley was known to be sloppy in his use of sources, sometimes mistranslating or otherwise misrepresenting them.

From the OP:

"When Adam was placed on earth, three messengers were sent to oversee him with myself at their head. . . . I taught Adam and Eve the hymns, and the order of prayer, and the ordinances by which would now help one to return to the presence of the Father." In sending three, God says to them, giving them instructions. He said to the pure sent one, His Son, 'Go call Adam and Eve and all their posterity and teach them concerning everything about the Kingdom of Light and the Worlds of Light. Be friendly with Adam and keep him company, you and the two angels which will be with you. Warn them against Satan; also, teach them chastity.'" (attributed to the Prayerbook of the Mandaeans)

From Hugh Nibley, Temple and Cosmos, p. 302:

"When Adam was placed on earth, three messengers were sent to oversee him, with myself at their head," says the Lord to the apostles during the forty days. (142) "I taught Adam and Eve the hymns, and the order of prayer, and the ordinances which would help one to return to the presence of the Father." (143) "I'm sending three, God says to them, giving them instructions. He said to the pure Sent One, his Son, 'Go call Adam and Eve and all their posterity and teach them concerning everything about the Kingdom of Light and the Worlds of Light. Be friendly with Adam and keep him company, you and the two angels which will be with you. Warn them against Satan; also, teach them chastity.' (144)"

____________________________________________

142. Cf. Werner Foerster,

Gnosis: A Selection of Gnostic Texts

, 2 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1974), 2:197; Mandaean Prayerbook No. 379, "And Hibil-Ziwa [Radiant-Abel] came and blessed three 'uthras [spirits-of-Life], And the three 'uthras blessed Adam and all his descendants" (cf. No. 42). Ethel S. Drower, tr.,

The Canonical Prayerbook of the Mandaeans

(Leiden: Brill, 1959), 292.

143. Foerster,

Gnosis

, 2:197.

144. Mark Lidzbarski,

Ginza: Der Schatz oder das grosse Buch der Mand

[Nevo]

From the OP:

"The first man was the third of the Sent Ones-- the Father, the Son, and Adam...As he left Heaven to come down and undergo his earthly trials, Adam received affectionate farewell embraces from all his faithful children. He put on his physical body and went forth to oppose the primal enemy. Before the creation of this world, the third Sent One (as Adam is called) came into the free space and began to organize this world. This third Sent One was Christ's great coworker in the Plan of Salvation, but in all things he has precedence. . . . At their new birth Adam and Eve received the seals and the tokens. As Adam stood praying and supplicating, God sent someone who came. and gave him a greeting of peace (shalom), embraced him, and preached the Gospel to him."

From Hugh Nibley, Temple and Cosmos, p. 301:

The

Berlin Papyrus

says, "The first man was the third of the Sent Ones -- the Father, the Son, and Adam" [no reference provided]

Hugh Nibley, Temple and Cosmos, p.306:

This is from the

Kephalaia

, and from the

Berlin Papyrus

, and from the

Gospel of Bartholomew

. "As he left Heaven to come down and undergo his earthly trials, Adam received affectionate farewell embraces from all his faithful children. He put on his physical body and went forth to oppose the primal enemy. Before the creation of this world, the third Sent One (as Adam is called) came into the free space and began to organize this world." Before he ever came down to be tested, he was one of the three who organized the world. "This third Sent One was Christ's great co-worker in the Plan of Salvation, but in all things he has precedence" (159).

_______________________________________

159. This is discussed in Hugh W. Nibley, "The Expanding Gospel,"

BYU Studies

7 (1965): 3-27; reprinted in this volume, pages 177-211.

Hugh Nibley, Temple and Cosmos, p.308:

The Berlin Papyrus says that at their new birth, Adam and Eve received the seals and the tokens. As Adam stood praying and supplicating, God sent someone who came and gave him a greeting of peace (shalom), embraced him, and preached the gospel to him. (167)

_______________________________________

167. Cf.

Apocryphon of John

20:15-25, in

NHLE

, 110.

[Nevo]

You are the first to doubt Nibley's abilities that I am aware of.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Hugh_Nibley:Footnotes

[lostindc]

GINZA:

"Go down to that place where there is no occupied place, where there is no world, and create for us another world after the fashion of the Sons of Salvation ...

God started out by creating a topos where His children could settle, there to recognize and to serve Him as their Father...

Adam., this is the place where you are going to live; your wife Eve will come and Join you here, and here your progeny will thrive...

The Father taught me about the worlds of the Lord and the Glory that abides in them. The Adam of light treads upon the earth's trembling foundation which is laid in the midst of the worlds...

There is no rivalry or competition among them, but they are glorious in their firmaments, and there ia agreement among them, fitting together like the lashes to the eye. All rejoice in each other, each being more glorious and bright than the other...

'No words can describe Thy power over all Thy worlds...'

When beings from different worlds meet, they exchange garments and treasures an identification a sign of mutual esteem. For the creation of endless worlds follows a single pattern -- that laid down by God the creator. The planet say, 'Come Lord of the gods, Lord of the entire cosmos.' (They rejoice and say) 'Come be our head, be the head of our whole world'..

"In the million of worlds that God has made for his sons every world is different from the other and wonderful in its own radiance.

Among ten thousand times ten thousand world you will find no two alike. Before this world, there had already been a thousand thousand mysteries and a myriad myriad of planets each with their own mysteries or ordinances.

He who has fulfilled all the ordinances and has done good work cannot be held back. We are taught the principles of salvation, so that we cannot be held back in this world...

When Adam stood praying for light and knowledge, a helper came to him and gave to him a garment and told him, 'Those men who gave you the garment will assist you throughout your life until you are ready to leave earth.'..

When Adam was created, he was found in a deep sleep, from which he was awakened by the helper who forthwith began to instruct him. And at his death also, the Sent Ones came to take Adam back to the great first Paternal House and to the places in which he formerly dwelt.

Second-- when Adam awoke, be faced the light and called for help. The Lord Himself approached him, in glory, and took him by the palm of the right hand instructed him and calmed him and Then he comforted Eve. 'In this way, I have brought joy and aid to his descendants.' The Sent Ones came to bring hope to Adam, who was in, the image of God...

At the creation, God gave orders that the angels should come to keep Adam company. At the beginning, it was the Lord Himself and two companions who instructed Adam and Eve in everything.

'Go down into the world, Adam, and grow up in the body, in that garment which has been assigned to you. Go down and grow up in the ordinances, that the ordinances may be magnified by you, that your progeny may thereby be firmly established. The Man that taught the elect righteous and the Nazoreans, who were to exist upon the earth in the preexistence, said, 'When you beget generations, and when you teach them their knowledge, explain to them, show them, and tell them about the rites which you have performed.' The wholesome things were transplanted

from the world above"

The evil spirits, who claim this world for their own, resent the Sent One's instruction. 'These three men are in the world,' they say, 'but they were not really men. They are light and glory, and they have come down to little 'Enosh' [that's physical man -- Adam] who is helpless and alone in the world. They are intruding on our world. The children of men have taken over the earth. They are really strangers who speak the language of the three men. They have accepted the teachings of the three men, and rejected in our own world. They refuse to acknowledge our kingdom and our glory '

Thus, the evil ones plotted to overthrow Adam, who was hoping for Mandadihaya (Teacher of Life), the messenger from the Father, to come-and give him aid and support.

When; Adam called upon God, the Great Spirit sent them from the landâ?¦

The Lord and two companions taught Adam and Eve all the ordinances and blessed them. 'The Great Light planted us here and gave us helpers who taught us the prayer of Adam in the world.' Three angels were sent to teach Adam and Eve the law of chastity, and to instruct them to be true and faithful when misfortune came upon them, and to dedicate all of their property to the needy and the poor -- the rule which is binding upon all the elect. They were to call upon God without ceasing, in the name of the Son, and not to trust in the things of this world. "

This comes from here:

Mark Lidzbarski, Ginza: Der Schatz oder das grosse Buch der Mand

[JLFuller]

From the OP:

"The first man was the third of the Sent Ones-- the Father, the Son, and Adam...As he left Heaven to come down and undergo his earthly trials, Adam received affectionate farewell embraces from all his faithful children. He put on his physical body and went forth to oppose the primal enemy. Before the creation of this world, the third Sent One (as Adam is called) came into the free space and began to organize this world. This third Sent One was Christ's great coworker in the Plan of Salvation, but in all things he has precedence. . . . At their new birth Adam and Eve received the seals and the tokens. As Adam stood praying and supplicating, God sent someone who came. and gave him a greeting of peace (shalom), embraced him, and preached the Gospel to him."

From Hugh Nibley, Temple and Cosmos, p. 301:

The

Berlin Papyrus

says, "The first man was the third of the Sent Ones -- the Father, the Son, and Adam" [no reference provided]

Hugh Nibley, Temple and Cosmos, p.306:

This is from the

Kephalaia

, and from the

Berlin Papyrus

, and from the

Gospel of Bartholomew

. "As he left Heaven to come down and undergo his earthly trials, Adam received affectionate farewell embraces from all his faithful children. He put on his physical body and went forth to oppose the primal enemy. Before the creation of this world, the third Sent One (as Adam is called) came into the free space and began to organize this world." Before he ever came down to be tested, he was one of the three who organized the world. "This third Sent One was Christ's great co-worker in the Plan of Salvation, but in all things he has precedence" (159).

_______________________________________

159. This is discussed in Hugh W. Nibley, "The Expanding Gospel,"

BYU Studies

7 (1965): 3-27; reprinted in this volume, pages 177-211.

Hugh Nibley, Temple and Cosmos, p.308:

The Berlin Papyrus says that at their new birth, Adam and Eve received the seals and the tokens. As Adam stood praying and supplicating, God sent someone who came and gave him a greeting of peace (shalom), embraced him, and preached the gospel to him. (167)

_______________________________________

167. Cf.

Apocryphon of John

20:15-25, in

NHLE

, 110.

Nevo

You cut and pasted several things but you provided no analysis of the problems you find with him except that he didn't include one source. A typo doesn't obviate his point - unless I have missed something here.

UPDATE

I just found your earlier post with the link to Wikipedia. It seems that according to some people they took exception to Nibley's work habits. But they were people who were employed to do the tedious work of making sure the tees were crossed and the i's were dotted. That is what they were paid to do. They also said they never found Nibley to invented or manipulated his findings. His integrity is intact. So the question remains: what is wrong with using Nibley as a source? His habits do not make him a bad source. They didn't interfere with his work.

[Nevo]

Sloppy? What is sloppy about that? He's snipped a quote using "...", so do most GA'a whom has ever quoted over the pulpit. What is your beef exactly, does Nibley misrepresent what was quoted or that of the subject matter?

I don't know if Nibley has misrepresented anything. I am simply providing the footnotes so someone can check them. I haven't found an online source that corroborates any of Nibley's quotes/paraphrases, so I'm a bit reluctant to take him at his word. Hopefully someone near a university library can check these sources and let us know.

[Mudcat]

Nibley was an apologist not a member of the 1st P or the Q12.

and the great thing about that, is that if he is/was correct all power and glory to God,

and if he is/was incorrect... Oh well, its not like he was a guy who spoke for the CoJCoLDS officially, anyways.

[lostindc]

Nibley is correct, I have been working on the citations. They have been cited wrong and paraphrased. I have found a few. It is going to take quite a while to dig through all of these because they are in different languages and can only be found in actual books not just online. As I have been doing it I have come across a few bullseyes regarding sealings in Lost texts.

I checked his citations in another piece he did and the texts I could get matched up.

[Garrote]

OK, I think I've found the original treatise that was apparently lifted verbatim by the Nazarene Essenes.

http://www.2s2.com/chapmanresearch/user/do...eexistence.html

Not sure who this guy or his "research" outfit is, but he's obviously LDS. Taking a look at his site now.

http://www.chapmanresearch.org/Library.html

In the Chapmanresearch.org link there is another link: )

Jewish Symbols in the Ancient Americas

(This article covers the many ancient Jewish Symbols found among ancient artifacts from the Americas)

and in this video he says that BYU and the LDS church have stated that all of these artifacts are fake.

There is a ton of items in this video...has anyone ever studied all of these?

[lostindc]

In the Chapmanresearch.org link there is another link: )

Jewish Symbols in the Ancient Americas

(This article covers the many ancient Jewish Symbols found among ancient artifacts from the Americas)

and in this video he says that BYU and the LDS church have stated that all of these artifacts are fake.

There is a ton of items in this video...has anyone ever studied all of these?

I hit up his site for a few minutes but I had to watch the Super Bowl so I am going to look through it tomorrow. It appears he has a bunch of stuff worth reading, IMHO.