Iron as a Decoration

[consiglieri]

Although I consider myself fairly well versed in Book of Mormon "evidences," I learned something new from watching Daniel C. Peterson's BYU-Education Week presentation, in which he remarked that the Book of Mormon's description of using iron as a decoratation does not fit into an early 19th century American use of the metal, but does find support among the ancients.

Because Prof. Peterson had to cover so much ground in his presentation, he did not dwell on this singular issue, and I was wondering if anybody out there can point me to some references for his proposition about iron being used anciently for decorative effect.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[John Larsen]

Although I consider myself fairly well versed in Book of Mormon "evidences," I learned something new from watching Daniel C. Peterson's BYU-Education Week presentation, in which he remarked that the Book of Mormon's description of using iron as a decoratation does not fit into an early 19th century American use of the metal, but does find support among the ancients.

Because Prof. Peterson had to cover so much ground in his presentation, he did not dwell on this singular issue, and I was wondering if anybody out there can point me to some references for his proposition about iron being used anciently for decorative effect.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Which verse(s) in the BOM refer to using iron as a decoration?

[consiglieri]

Which verse(s) in the BOM refer to using iron as a decoration?

Mosiah 11:8

8 And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper;

[John Larsen]

Thanks!

By the way, finding ancient references to decorating with ziff would be more bullseyeier.

[krose]

... using iron as a decoratation does not fit into an early 19th century American use of the metal, but does find support among the ancients.

Surely you are not saying that ornamental iron work was not common in the US in the 19th century? Just a quick search brings up several references, including the book Metals in America's Historic Buildings, which says:

"Cast iron was a major 19th-century building material of the Industrial Revolution, while wrought iron was used for minor structural and also decorative elements from the 18th century on."

[consiglieri]

All I am saying is what I heard Professor Peterson say in his video-taped presentation at BYU-Education Week.

Thanks for the research, Krose. I appreciate it.

In light of that, I hope that DCP may happen upon this thread and fill us in.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[lostindc]

But what about:

1. View of Hebrews
   
2. Solomon Spaulding
   
3. The Atlases that contain Moroni
   
4. Sidney Rigdon and Ethan Smith
   
5. Sidney Rigdon and Solomon Spaulding
   
6. Kaballah
   
7. Mayan history books publish pre 1830
   
8. All the books of Enoch
   
9. Alma as a man's name
   
10. Kinderhook
    
11. Uncle Dale and the Illuminati
    
12. Mason Ceremonies
    
13. KJV of Bible
    
14. Ethiopic Version of the Bible
    
15. British Museum texts
    
16. Leaves of Grass
    
17. Joseph knowledge that the Dead Sea Scrolls were going to be found and what they contained
    
18. Joseph obviously starting all those problems and making people have to mob and kill him
    
19. View of Hebrews again
    
20. View of Hebrews one more time
    

I think a rebuttal is due

[Daniel Peterson]

"Cast iron was a major 19th-century building material of the Industrial Revolution, while wrought iron was used for minor structural and also decorative elements from the 18th century on."

Is there anything in that quotation to suggest that iron was considered precious, as in "all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron"?

[beastie]

Is there any evidence that the inhabitants of ancient Mesoamerica used wrought iron as decoration during the BoM time frame?

[lostindc]

Is there any possible correlation or evidence that Joseph maybe had ties to the Pittsburgh steel mill industry and possible correlating books in the greatest and most vast of all libraries in the world, the Palmyra library?

BTW, I heard from a good source that the Palmyra library had Google.

[Anijen]

Is there any evidence that the inhabitants of ancient Mesoamerica used wrought iron as decoration during the BoM time frame?

I don't know of any "proof" but iron was used well before the time of Lehi in the middle east. And besides aesthetic reasons iron was also used for weaponry. In the BoM Nephi seems to like writing about metals and appeared to be of great interest to him. I have postulated as have others that he might have learned this trade and kept it a family secret to increase trade and provide for his family. Not proof but still plausible. Just because there is no evidence of it does not mean it didn't happen (I am sure I have heard that somewhere).

Anijen~ whose favorite presidents are Washington and Reagan and love's our founding fathers.

[beastie]

I don't know of any "proof" but iron was used well before the time of Lehi in the middle east. And besides aesthetic reasons iron was also used for weaponry. In the BoM Nephi seems to like writing about metals and appeared to be of great interest to him. I have postulated as have others that he might have learned this trade and kept it a family secret to increase trade and provide for his family. Not proof but still plausible. Just because there is no evidence of it does not mean it didn't happen (I am sure I have heard that somewhere).

In other words, no, there is no evidence that decorative wrought iron was used in ancient Mesoamerica during the BoM time period.

There is also no evidence of metallurgy at all in ancient Mesoamerica during the BoM time period.

BTW, Nephi himself claims he taught his people these skills.

http://mormonmesoamerica.com/metallurgy.htm

[Daniel Peterson]

In other words, no, there is no evidence that decorative wrought iron was used in ancient Mesoamerica during the BoM time period.

I don't believe that there is any extant evidence of decorative use of iron for Mesoamerica during the BoM time period, but I defer to Mesoamerican specialists like beastie on this point.

The argument in Reexploring, as I recall it, has nothing to do with Mesoamerica, but, rather, with then-recent scholarship focused on the ancient Near East. And it presumed that iron was valuable because rare.

There is also no evidence of metallurgy at all in ancient Mesoamerica during the BoM time period.

That may or may not be true. There is little or no direct evidence, but there is some very interesting indirect evidence. Some of this is summarized in

John L. Sorenson, "Preclassic Metal?" American Antiquity 20 (1954): 64, and John L. Sorenson, "A Reconsideration of Early Metal in Mesoamerica," Katunob 9 (March 1976): 1-18.

See also http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms/Metals.

[krose]

Is there anything in that quotation to suggest that iron was considered precious, as in "all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron"?

Okay, I see that you meant it as a precious metal. I read the statement from Consiglieri to mean that iron as ornamental decoration was unknown to an 1820s-era American, which did not ring true.

Incidentally, I have always read the verse above as a serial list of items separated by commas that function as "and" rather than "precious things such as these." Perhaps that way makes more sense. I don't know.

[Mike Reed]

Mosiah 11:8

8 And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper;

As I read the above passage... what is precious are the "things" being made. Not the materials from which they are made from. These things were regarded as "elegant", "fine", and "precious."

[USU78]

Well . . . there's this: http://www.jstor.org/pss/275297

[Sevenbak]

Although I consider myself fairly well versed in Book of Mormon "evidences," I learned something new from watching Daniel C. Peterson's BYU-Education Week presentation, in which he remarked that the Book of Mormon's description of using iron as a decoratation does not fit into an early 19th century American use of the metal, but does find support among the ancients.

Because Prof. Peterson had to cover so much ground in his presentation, he did not dwell on this singular issue, and I was wondering if anybody out there can point me to some references for his proposition about iron being used anciently for decorative effect.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Just for fun... ancient iron furnace sites discovered in the americas... This has lots of links to lots of iron specific sites, all over the Americas.

http://www.iwaynet.net/~wdc/

[beastie]

Well . . . there's this: http://www.jstor.org/pss/275297

What are you suggesting this article asserts?

Just for fun... ancient iron furnace sites discovered in the americas... This has lots of links to lots of iron specific sites, all over the Americas.

Yes, I suggest you view this is â??just for funâ? until you actually have information that verifies this fellowâ??s claims. He sounds reminiscent of Barry Fell, to me, who does not have a stellar reputation among professional archaeologists.

[beastie]

That may or may not be true. There is little or no direct evidence, but there is some very interesting indirect evidence. Some of this is summarized in

John L. Sorenson, "Preclassic Metal?" American Antiquity 20 (1954): 64, and John L. Sorenson, "A Reconsideration of Early Metal in Mesoamerica," Katunob 9 (March 1976): 1-18.

See also http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms/Metals.

Given the problematic nature of Sorenson's use of some of these sources, I suggest anyone serious about this research should try to obtain the original sources to evaluate them for themselves.

http://mormonmesoamerica.com/metallurgy.ht...renson%20Claims

Iâ??m copying and pasting the section of my website that deals with Sorensonâ??s metallurgy claims.

Dr. Sorenson does offer specific pieces of evidence that he believes supports the theory that advanced metallurgy existed in ancient Mesoamerica during the Book of Mormon time period. Matheny dealt with two of these assertions in her essay, and Sorenson did not refute this information in his rebuttal linked here:

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=1&id=142

â??What may be the oldest piece of metal from Mesoamerica (from the site of Cuicuilco in the Valley of Mexico) noted by Sorenson may date as early as about the first century B.C.E. (1985, 278). However, I know of no confirmation of a date that early. In fact it has been suggested by Emil Haury, one of the project archaeologists although not the one who excavated the piece, that the metal was from an Aztec reuse of a Preclassic mound (1975, 199). Additionally there is no evidence that the artifact singled out by Sorenson was produced in Mesoamerica. Even if this piece should prove to have been produced in the proper time (Late Preclassic period and place, we would still be left with 2,900 years of Nephite and Jaredite metallurgy unaccounted for in the archaeological record.â?

And later:

"The question that has again not been considered is whether the specimens were of local manufacture or represent trade pieces from lower Central America. The majority of the specimens date to Late Classic times falling outside of the Book of Mormon period. The few that are genuinely Early Classic or slightly earlier seem to be trade pieces not produced in the area. We are still left with virtually the entire span of time covered by the Book of Mormon events with no metallurgy in the area chosen by Sorenson.

Among the specimens in Sorensonâ??s â??Iâ? category are some copper finger rings from the site of La Libertad in Chiapas, Mexico. Sorenson (1992b, 46, 75) notes that Donald E. Miller (1977, 19) one of the principal investigators at the site, reported two Classic period burials from near the surface of a mound and a Postclassic burial containing the rings from near the surface of another mound top. Sorenson suggests that the presence of the metal alone is not enough to make it Postclassic and states that there is no other evidence at the site for a Postclassic presence. He reassigns it to the Late Classic period at C.E. 600-900. La Libertad is a particularly interesting site because it not only falls within the area of Sorensonâ??s model but has been advanced as a candidate for the city of Manti from the Book of Mormon. Several seasons of investigations were carried out at La Libertad by the New World Archaeological Foundation (NWAF) in the mid-1970s as a part of an extensive project in the Upper Grijalva Basin. While several preliminary papers have been produced concerning the site and one publication about the lithic artifacts (Clark 1988), information about most of the excavations is currently under preparation for publication. As a part of the NWAF team that mapped and excavated at La Libertad in 1975, I participated in the excavation of a burial near the surface of a low mound which contained a large copper bell as an offering. Miller, who is currently preparing material from La Libertad for publication, provided the following information (Miller 1992). During the 1976 season many more burials were located including Burial 26 which contained the copper rings mentioned by Sorenson. There is no reason to suppose that these burials pertain to the Classic period. Explorations in the immediate area of La Libertad revealed the presence of a Postclassic site, within a few hundred meters of the ceremonial precinct, with a considerable quantity of pottery fragments on the surface. Other burials at La Libertad included complex Late Preclassic burials and Late Classic burials, none of which contained any metal artifacts. Upon comparing the grave types, orientation and furniture of those burials assigned to the Classic and Postclassic periods, there are obvious differences. As far as the excavators are concerned, there is no reason to assign the metal specimens from La Libertad to any period earlier than the Postclassic period.â?

I tracked down two of his other references on my own, with equally problematic results. The following quote is from Ancient American Setting, page 284:

â??The possibility that smelted iron either has been or may yet be found is enhanced by a find at Teotihuacan. A pottery vessel dating to about AD 300, and apparently used for smelting, contained a â??metallic-lookingâ? mass. Analyzed chemically, it proved to contain copper and iron. Linee, the same Swedish archaeologist who made that find, accepted a piece of iron found in a tomb at Mitla, Oaxaca, as probably refined.â?

The footnotes Dr. Sorenson attaches to this information are:

â??Sigvald Linne, Mexican Highland Cultures, Ethnographical Museum of Sweden, Publication 7, ns (Stockholm, 1942), p. 132

Sigvald Linne, Zapotecan Antiquities, Ehthnographical Museum of Sweden, Publication 4, ns (Stockholm, 1938), p. 75â?

I obtained Linneâ??s Mexican Highland Cultures text. This particular section was a dig of the Tlamimilolpa House Ruin in Teotihuacan. At the beginning of the section, Linne spends some time describing the actual site and how they proceeded. Then he lists the objects excavated therein. 13 graves were discovered below the floors of different rooms, and the object in question was discovered in Burial site 1, the earliest of said graves. He first lists approximately sixteen different types of pottery vessels, bowls, dishes, jars, lids, miniature vessels. He then lists beads and figurine fragments. Next he lists obsidian knives and tools. Then he moves into listing the mineral type objects. This is the area of the list wherein this item occurs. From page 132:

â??1 object of pyrite, rounded and highly polished, fig. 236. Analysis reveals a high percentage of iron and sulphur: specific gravity 4.88

1 piece of pyrite, of rectangular shape and with one side slightly convex and polished; 1.3 x 0.9x 0.1 cm. Was no doubt originally set in the eye of a mask of the typeshown in pls. 3-5.

Metallic-resembling substance, small, irregular shaped pieces. Analysis has shown them to contain copper and iron, but no zinc, tin, or antimony.

2 bone implements, short and tapering, though not sharp-pointed. Have possibly been used for flaking off knives from obsidian blocks. Figs. 248, 254.

1 thin, flat bone object with a blunt point and a hole pierced for a suspension cord or the like, fig. 249â?

He then proceeds to list teeth and shells.

After listing all the objects, he writes some notes and draws some conclusions. Under the heading â??Tools and ornaments of obsidian, stone, and micaâ?, he states:

â??Of peculiar character are a rounded object, fig. 236, and fragments of a circular plate, both from Burial 1. The latter, which has the appearance of rusty iron, may have been a mirror. Analysis has shown both of them to contain a large proportion of sulphur and iron, and they are undoubtedly iron pyrite. There can be no doubt that certain pre-Spanish objects described as being of iron are nothing but pyrite. Weathering has made them look rusty. The diameter of the flat disc is 6 cm, which roughly corresponds to the average size of the Mexican pyrite mirrors included in Nordenskioldâ??s study of convex and concave mirrors in America. Unfortunately the surface is so badly weathered that it is impossible to determine the way in which it is ground. Nordenskiold has, however, found that the majority of pre-Spanish mirrors â?? all of them from Mexico, Ecuador, and the Peruvian coast â?? are convex and consist of pyrite. In Musee de lâ??Homme, Paris, there is one which forms part of Charnayâ??s collection and is stated to have come from Teotihuacan. Nordenskiold further adduces a Mexican picture-writing in which among other things is seen a man using a mirror. The picture-writing in question is said to originate from Cholula. Mirrors were naturally in great demand as an article of trade and even formed part of the barter goods with which the great raft that Bartolome Ruiz in 1526 encountered off the coast of Ecuador was loaded.â?

Under the pottery section, this is listed:

â??6 bowls with flat bottom, curving sides and exceedingly rudimentary feet, fig. 203. They are black, polished, and with a surface of almost metallic luster. One of them is ornamented with incised curved lines, fig. 217â?

As should be obvious, nothing in this passage supports Dr. Sorensonâ??s reference to a vessel used for smelting, with an analyzed residue at the bottom.

I attempted to reach Dr. Sorenson about this problem, and he answered me via Dan Peterson on the FAIR site. Due to FAIRâ??s copyright restrictions, I cannot copy his response, but will paraphrase it. Interested readers should be able to find the thread in the archives through the search function, under â??Sorensonâ??s footnoteâ?. Dr. Sorenson admitted that the referenced footnote was incorrect, and that he obtained the information through a private correspondence that he no longer has. He dismissed the concern over such a misuse of a source by saying it was a â??tempest in a teapotâ?, and there were plenty of other references to support his assertions.

I was not able to personally obtain the second reference, but a friend accessed it at her library and kindly copied the pertinent section for me.

â??Page 53 (first reference):

"In a grave-chamber situated in the present village were among other things found 20 bells and a number of tweezers of copper, part of a small, circular iron plate, a necklace consisting of small, perforated shells, and a rasping bone. The iron plate is no doubt to be counted among the most remarkable objects that have at any time been discovered in Mexico seeing there is nothing to indicate that it is of post-Columbian origin (cf. p. 75). Hitherto it has always been held as an axiom that iron was unknown to the Indians of ancient America. A clay vessel found in this grave was of Mixtecan type. In a neighbouring grave-chamber were, among other things, found a "metate" (grinding stone) with its "mano" (muller), and a large number of clay vessels referable to Period V."

Page 75-76:

"At the researches that were carried out in the excavation season 1934 - 35 at Mitla there was, as already mentioned, discovered a grave (No. 5) in which, among other things, was found a small iron plate.[28] The grave in question no doubt dates from the time when the Mixtecs were in possession. The chemist, connected with the Instituto de Geolog

[Zakuska]

Olmec Concave Iron Ore mirrors

Beasty forgets the most recent finds:

For years the best evidence suggested that metallurgy was unknown in the Americas until about 900 A.D. Recent studies have altered this view. "Current information," writes one non-LDS scholar, "clearly indicates that by 1000 B.C. the most advanced metallurgy was being practiced in the Cauca Valley of Colombia."1

Peruvians began metallurgy as early as 2000 B.C., and since it is generally accepted that Peru and Mesoamerica were in contact by trading, it seems reasonable that this knowledge was passed on to Mesoamerican peoples. This is especially apparent since at least a dozen pieces of metal have been found in Mesoamerica dating to before 900 AD.2

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/bookofmorm...metallurgy.html

1 Archaeology, Nov./Dec., 1985, 81.

2 John L. Sorenson, "Digging into the Book of Mormon: Our Changing Understanding of Ancient America and Its Scripture," Ensign (September 1984), 34-35.

Coe needs to be updated.

[beastie]

Zak,

Do you understand what iron-ore mirrors are? No one contests that Mesoamericans used meteorite remnants and other metal outcrops to do simple metal-working. Olmec iron-ore mirrors are not new, and certainly of no help to the BoM.

Peruvians began metallurgy as early as 2000 B.C., and since it is generally accepted that Peru and Mesoamerica were in contact by trading, it seems reasonable that this knowledge was passed on to Mesoamerican peoples. This is especially apparent since at least a dozen pieces of metal have been found in Mesoamerica dating to before 900 AD.2

Funny, I recall apologists insisting that Nephi could have also reasonably kept metallurgy secret, and thatâ??s why thereâ??s no evidence of it. Now Iâ??m being told itâ??s â??reasonableâ? that Mesoamericans obtained knowledge of metallurgy from Peru before the accepted 900 date range, despite the lack of evidence of it.

There is no evidence of metallurgy in Mesoamerica during the BoM time period.

[Zakuska]

As I said Coe needs to be updated...

Iron

While critics have assured us that the Book of Mormon's use of iron is anachronistic, recent research refutes this claim. A pottery vessel dating to around 300 A.D., for example, might have been used for smelting. A metallic mass within this vessel contained copper and iron. The archaeologist who made this find has also found a refined piece of iron in an ancient American tomb.6 Even one Book of Mormon critic (who questions the relationship between New World iron and Book of Mormon iron) acknowledges that the Olmecs of Central America (which correspond to logical Jaredite times/places) knew of and used "iron" as evidenced by iron mirrors.7

In 1996, a non-LDS Olmec specialist, Dr. Anne Cyphers, noted that several tons of iron have been excavated from those sites.8 Dr. William Hamblin, in a discussion with John Clark (of the BYU archaeology department) asserts that "a total of 10 tons of iron has been found at San Lorenzo, in several massive hordes, the largest of which was 4 tons. Before the discovery of these hordes, only a few pieces of iron were known. They were discovered by using metal detectors."9

6 Ibid., 284-285.

7 Deanne G. Matheny, "Does the Shoe Fit? A Critique of the Limited Tehuantepec Geography," New Approaches to the Book of Mormon: Explorations in Critical Methodology, edited by Brent Lee Metcalfe (Salt Lake City: Signature, 1993), 289.

8 William J. Hamblin, "Talk on the Olmecs by Cypher," posted 9/26/96 SAMU-L. Copy in my possession.

9 William J. Hamblin, "Supplement on Cyphers' talk," posted 10/2/96 SAMU-L. Copy in my possession.

10 Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting, 283.

[beastie]

Zak,

Yes, Coe needs to be updated. As far as I know, he's in retirement, however.

Peruvian metallurgy does not help the BoM.

More to the point, do you realize that the source your article cites above is John Sorenson, in Ancient Setting? And do you realize I've already demonstrated that his sources were erroneous? And do you realize I provided that information right on this thread?

[Zakuska]

More on the 2000BC Peruvian iron mines-

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1969267/posts

[Sevenbak]

Yes, I suggest you view this is â??just for funâ? until you actually have information that verifies this fellowâ??s claims. He sounds reminiscent of Barry Fell, to me, who does not have a stellar reputation among professional archaeologists.