Iron as a Decoration

[Zakuska]

Lets take a step back and look at some evidence of Metal that predate your 800ad boundary.

In America there is little archaeological evidence for metallurgy in the Book of Mormon period. Fragmentary evidence is available for certain metallurgical activities in Peru as early as 1700 BC, but it took many centuries there before the craft noticeably flourished. It may be that that area was an intermediate source for some of Mesoamerica's metallurgy. Orthodox archaeologists insist that no metals were used in Mesoamerica before about 900 AD. However, scores of specimens have been identified that seem to date earlier.14

Decisive data for an earlier date come from words for metal (or for bell)15 that appear in five proto-languages that have been reconstructed from surviving daughter tongues:

Proto-Mayan. Descended from Proto-Mayan (estimated at 2200 BC), Proto-Tzeltal-Tzotzil, with a word for metal, dates to about AD 500.16 Yet Huastecan, a Mayan language, also has such a word17 and is considered to have split from the main Mayan group by 2000 BC.

Proto-Mixtecan. A reconstructed Proto-Mixtecan word for metal, or bell, has been dated to about 1500 BC.18

Proto-Mixe-Zoquean. A widely cited study identifies Proto-Mixe-Zoquean as probably a (or the) tongue spoken by inhabitants of the Olmec area before 1000 BC,19 and this proto-language included a word for metal.

Proto-Huavean and Proto-Otomanguean. Words for metal in these two proto-languages are of uncertain date but in any case date to before AD 900.20

In recent decades, the continued discovery and analysis of metal artifacts both in the Near East and in Mesoamerica have changed our picture of technological history. The expectation that the history will change further in years to come is entirely realistic. Those who try to relate the Nephite record to archaeological and historical facts with regard to metals have improved the strength of their position with recent finds. It will be important to clarify that relationship as the years go on by being critically and reliably informed about new discoveries. Incomplete scholarship will not help those who love truth.

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vo...p;cat_id=292#14

[beastie]

I really wonder if you actually read anything I post, Zak. I dealt with the "linguistic evidence" on post 19 of this thread.

[Sevenbak]

Please do share this evidence. Don't bother with photographs of undated artifacts.

I must add that it is remarkable that you have access to information that experts who have spent decades studying this field do not possess.

Sure, although your claim needs backing, not mine. The evidence and artifacts are overwhelming.

Here is several pages of samples, from the national museum of Peru. Weapons and tools of all kinds, lances, chisels, axes, etc. (starting about #93 or so) The dates on these are 1 AD to 800 AD, from the Moche people. This is just one category, you can search others and dates if you like. I've included a Spanish to English site to help you if you wish to search further.

http://catalogomuseolarco.perucultural.org.pe/catalogue.asp

The search engine won't allow me to post result pages, but put in "Mochica" in the "cultura" dropdown, then list "metal" in the "material" menu. The results are outstanding!

Also, for your iron entertainment, here are several iron metal balls and beads and weights that have survived the centuries. With a clean category page, list "hierro" (iron) in the description page.

Mind you, all these are just from Peru! Also, you might want to research the Mound Builders in North America. The time period is right, and the bronze artifacts discovered in said mounds are numerous. Yes, metal tools and weapons were abundant!

I've included a Spanish to English site to help you if you wish to search the Peru Museum further.

http://www.spanishdict.com/

[LeSellers]

There is no evidence of copper or brass/bronze tools in ancient Mesoamerica during the BoM time frame, either.

Which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Lehi

[Zakuska]

Sure, although your claim needs backing, not mine. The evidence and artifacts are overwhelming.

Here is several pages of samples, from the national museum of Peru. Weapons and tools of all kinds, lances, chisels, axes, etc. (starting about #93 or so) The dates on these are 1 AD to 800 AD, from the Moche people. This is just one category, you can search others and dates if you like. I've included a Spanish to English site to help you if you wish to search further.

http://catalogomuseolarco.perucultural.org.pe/catalogue.asp

The search engine won't allow me to post result pages, but put in "Mochica" in the "cultura" dropdown, then list "metal" in the "material" menu. The results are outstanding!

Also, for your iron entertainment, here are several iron metal balls and beads and weights that have survived the centuries. With a clean category page, list "hierro" (iron) in the description page.

Mind you, all these are just from Peru! Also, you might want to research the Mound Builders in North America. The time period is right, and the bronze artifacts discovered in said mounds are numerous. Yes, metal tools and weapons were abundant!

I've included a Spanish to English site to help you if you wish to search the Peru Museum further.

http://www.spanishdict.com/

Silly sevenbak, thats Peru not mesoamerica. See we have to get geographically specific.

[Sevenbak]

Silly sevenbak, thats Peru not mesoamerica. See we have to get geographically specific.

Silly Zak, do you hold to the isolated limited geography theory? Shall I find the same stuff for you in a Mexico or Guatemala museum? It's all over the place down there.

hmm, think I will. brb

[Zakuska]

I don't but the person you are playing against does. Or at least the people she is trying to refute do and so she does. FYI.

Peru has all kinds of Metal weoponry and decoration during BOM times.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/...70423100437.htm

[Sevenbak]

I don't but the person you are playing against does. Or at least the people she is trying to refute do and so she does. FYI.

Peru has all kinds of Metal weoponry and decoration during BOM times.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/...70423100437.htm

Ah, I see you were being facetious. Solly. Still trying to decipher the Mexico National museum site. It's a tad harder not speaking spanish fluently.

Personally, I'm of the same mind as JS on the matter, a continent wide geography. North and South America.

[Jeff K.]

Ah, I see you were being facetious. Solly. Still trying to decipher the Mexico National museum site. It's a tad harder not speaking spanish fluently.

Personally, I'm of the same mind as JS on the matter, a continent wide geography. North and South America.

If you need help, let me know. I speak Spanish fluently. I am also translator for our Stake.

[Zakuska]

This was an intresting read...

South America:

South American metal working seems to have developed in the Andean regions of modern Peru and Bolivia with gold being hammered and shaped into intricate objects, particularly ornaments (^[4]), recent finds dating the earliest metal work to 2 155 to 1936 B.C. (^[5]). It was found in the context of a society undergoing social and economic changes but still very much small food producer and not quite sedentary yet. Which breaks away from the idea that this type of metal work developed in societies with enough food surplus to support an elite. Rather than being a product of a hierarchical society gold might have been meshed in the creation of it. Further evidence for this type of metal work comes from the sites at Waywaka, Chavin and Kotosh (^[6]), and it seems to have been spread throughout Andean societies by the Early horizon (1000 - 200 B.C.) Unlike in other metallurgy traditions where metals gain importance due to their widespread use from weaponry to every day utensils, metals in South America (and latter in central america) were mainly valued as adornments and objects representative of a high status (this not to say that some more functional objects were not being produced). It is during the Early horizon that advancements in metal working result in spectacular and characteristically Andean gold objects made by the joining of smaller metal sheets and also gold-silver alloy appears. Two traditions seem have developed along side each other, one in northern Peru and Ecuador another in the altiplano region of southern Peru, Bolivia and Chile. There is evidence for smelting of copper sulphide in the Altiplano region around the Early horizon. Evidence for this comes from copper slag recovered at several sites (^[7]), with the ore itself possibly coming from the south (Chilean-Bolivian border). Evidence for fully developed smelting however only appears with the Moche culture (northern coast, 200 B.C. - 600 A.D.). The ores were being extracted at shallow deposits in the Andean foothill, weather by specialised workers or slaves/prisioners is unclear. In any case the ores are believed to have been smelted at nearby locations, evidenced in the actual metal artefacts and from ceramic vessels depicting the process, which is believed to have been occurring in adobe brick furnaces with at least 3 blow pipes to provide the air flow needed to reach the high temperatures. The resulting ingots would then have been moved to coastal centres where shaping of the object would occur in specialised workshops. Both of the workshops found and studied were located near administrative sections of the respective towns - again indicative of the high value placed upon metal. The objects themselves were still mainly adornments, now often being attached to beads, with some functional objects being fashioned but since these were so elaborately decorated and often found within high status burial contexts that it still believed that they were still being used for more symbolic purposes. The appearance of gold or silver seems to have been important with a high number of gilded or silvered objects as well as the appearance of Tumbaga, a copper/gold and sometimes also silver alloy. Arsenic bronze was also being smelted from sulphidic ores, a practice either independently developed or learned from the southern tradition. There is a gradual spread north into Colombia, Panama and Costa Rica reaching Guatemala and Belize by A.D. 800. It is really only with the Incas that metals gain a more utilitarian use, nonetheless it remained a material through which to display wealth and status. The characteristic importance placed on colour, which had led to some of the earlier developments was still present (Sun/Moon association with gold/silver). Metal other than gold had also an intrinsic value with the axe pieces being of particular note in this regard. With the spread of metal tools being championed by the Incas it is thought possible that a more Old World use of metals would have become more common. In any case â??Bronze can be seen as an expensive substitute for the equally efficient stoneâ?? (^[8] pp 183) and why waste the gift of the Gods then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in...lumbian_America

Bolding/underline is mine.

Interesting that metal is being used for "ADORNMENT" just as Mosiah says King Noah was doing.

[Sevenbak]

If you need help, let me know. I speak Spanish fluently. I am also translator for our Stake.

Thanks. The Mexico Museum site and a couple others I searched don't have the online database like the Peru one does, but this site has them, and many links to the various museums where they are held. It's sufficient for me, I've more than made the case for the time period and metal tools/weapons, using the Peru site alone.

Most of the metal ones here are toward the bottom.

Spears and Lances:

http://www.PrecolumbianWeapons.com/spears.htm

Axes:

http://www.PrecolumbianWeapons.com/axe.htm

Armor:

http://www.PrecolumbianWeapons.com/armor.htm

Tumi Knives:

http://www.PrecolumbianWeapons.com/tumi.htm

[Sevenbak]

This was an intresting read...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in...lumbian_America

Bolding/underline is mine.

Interesting that metal is being used for "ADORNMENT" just as Mosiah says King Noah was doing.

Thanks. So hard for accepted theories to explain away the artifacts, eh?

[Zakuska]

All of this Gold and precious metals...

http://www.precolumbiangold.com/collection.htm

Matches King Noah's usage of precious metals for "adornment". Its also all during BOM times.

[Zakuska]

Did you read the intro:

Introduction:

People in the Americas have been using native metal from very early times, with recent finds of gold artefacts in the Andean region dated to 2155 - 1936 B.C. ([1]) and North American copper finds dated to approximately 5000 B.C. e.g. ([2]). The metal would have been found in nature without need for smelting techniques and shaped into the desired form using heat and cold hammering techniques without chemically altering the metal by alloying it. To date â??no one has found evidence that points to the use of melting, smelting and casting in prehistoric eastern North America.â?? ( ([3]). In South America the case is quite different. This early familiarity with metals then developed into full metallurgy with smelting and various metals being purposefully alloyed. Metallurgy in Mesoamerica developed from contacts with South America, as such the largest section of this entry will be dedicated to it.

This was also intesting...

Mesoamerica:

Metallurgy only appears in Mesoamerica in A.D. 800 with the best evidence from West Mexico. Much like in South American it was seen as a material for the elite and it was the special qualities of colour and resonance that seemed to have appealed most and then led to the particular technological developments seen in the region ([9]). Exchange of ideas and goods with peoples from today’s region of Ecuador and Columbia (likely via a maritime route) seems to have fueled early interest and development. Similar metal artefact types are found in West Mexico and the two regions: copper rings, needles and tweezers being fabricated in the same ways as in Ecuador and also found in similar archaeological contexts. There is also a multitude of bells found , but in this case having been cast using the same lost-wax casting method as seen in Colombia ([10]). At this period copper was being used almost exclusively. Continual contact kept the flow of ideas from that same region and latter, coinciding with the development of Andean long distance maritime trade, influence from further south seems to have reached the region and lead to a second period (A.D. 1200-1300 to the Spanish arrival) ([11]). By this time copper alloys were being explored by West Mexican metallurgists some because the different mechanical properties were needed to fashion specific artefacts like particularly axe monies - further evidence for contact with the Andean region - but in general developed the new properties such alloys introduced to match their own regional representations - specially wirework bells which at times had such high tin content in the bronze that it was irrelevant for its’ mechanical properties, but gave it a golden colour. Although the actual artefacts and then techniques were imported from the south the ores being worked by west Mexican metallurgists were from the abundant local deposits, the metal was not being imported. Even when the technology spreads from West into north-eastern, central and southern Mexico artefacts that can be traced back to West Mexican ores are if not exclusive, at least abundant. (It is not always clear if the metal reached its’ final destination as an ingot, an ore or a finished artefact). Provenance studies on metal artefacts from southern mesoamerica cast with the lost-wax technique and dissimilar to west Mexican artefacts have shown that there might have been a second point of emergence of metallurgy into mesoamerica there since no known source could be identified. ([12]) The Aztecs did not initially adopt metal working (even if they had acquired metal objects) however as conquest gained them metal working regions the technology started to spread and by the time of the Spanish conquest a blooming bronze smelting technology seemed to be nascent.

[Sevenbak]

Did you read the intro:

This was also intesting...

Great finds! I also found this, amazing, about the ancient pit copper minds near Lake Michigan.

A Short History of Copper Mining (Lake Superior)

Copper was first mined in this area by an ancient vanished race between 5,000 and 1,200 bc. These miners left no burial grounds, dwellings, pottery, clay tablets or cave drawings. What was left behind was thousands of copper producing pits and more thousands of crude hammering stones with which the pits had been worked. The ancients apparently worked the copper bearing rock by alternately using fire and cold water, to break the copper ore into smaller pieces from which they could extract the metal with hand held hammering stones or stone hatchets. With this copper, they made tools.

Scientists and engineers estimate that it would have required 10,000 men 1,000 years to develop the extensive operations carried on throughout the region. It is estimated that 1.5 billion pounds of copper were mined by these unknown people.

The pure copper of Lake Superior has been discovered in prehistoric cultures throughout North and South America.

The mystery of their origin remains unsolved. The mystery of their disappearance remains unsolved.

Many hammered copper knives, arrow and spear heads and axes were recovered at ancient mining sites. Some fine examples are on display at Fort Wilkins.

http://www.exploringthenorth.com/cophistory/cophist.html

[beastie]

I argue from the basis of LGT within Mesoamerica because it's the only theory even worth debating. Hemispheric or Peruvian settings aren't even worth debating, in my opinion, because of the lack of prerequisite population density that could result in the complex society described in the BoM. In addition, there was no written language in NA or Peru.

There's a reason apologists who have studied this topic for decades insist on Mesoamerica as the setting.

Sevenbak,

Yes, it's well accepted that Peru had early metallurgy. It is not accepted that Mesoamerica had early metallurgy. The pictures you provide that have no dates attached are worthless. I asked you to provide clear, substantiated evidence of metal weapons or metallurgy prior to 800 AD in Mesoamerica. You still have not done so.

It's been a while since I participated at MAD. Apparently times have changed, and the vocal defenders of the faith are no longer individuals like Brant Gardner, who actually has background experience in this topic, and are folks like Zak and Sevenbak, who clearly are googling their way through this. Interesting.

[beastie]

John Clark, from his BYU devotional address about Mesoamerica and the BoM, in the Q/A period:

[John Clark:] Well, for example, you had this flap about DNA recently. ... The DNA question is never going to be a problem. It only works one way, and in our favor. But the only reason that it looked like a flap or a problem is because they say: Well, Mormons believe (first of all they tell us what we believe) Mormons believe that all Indians in North and South America descended from these people who came over that are described in the Book of Mormon. I grew up believing thatâ??but that's false, that's absolutely wrong.

And so once you say there were other people here, you say: OK, where were the Nephites, and how many more people were here. We have all kinds of other DNA signatures to worry about all of a sudden. It may be that we never find any Hebrew DNA (whatever that looks like) in the New World. ... But if we do find some, that's fine; if we don't find some, that's fine too. There's no way that negative evidence on that hurts the Book of Mormon whatsoever once you believe in a limited geography. If you believe in a global geography, you're basically done, toasted, game over.

[All-Seeing Eye]

As I read the above passage... what is precious are the "things" being made. Not the materials from which they are made from. These things were regarded as "elegant", "fine", and "precious."

I agree with Mike. This interpretation does seem to make the most sense to me. It was not the iron that was precious, inherently, but the things that had iron (and/or gold, silver, copper, and brass) in them that were precious. And probably would have been precious even without these metals being involved, just because a king had them made.

[Sevenbak]

I argue from the basis of LGT within Mesoamerica because it's the only theory even worth debating.

That's pretty smug, considering there are definitely 2 camps of thought on this. Academia vs. The Brethren, in most cases.

I'll stick with the latter, thanks.

[Sevenbak]

John Clark, from his BYU devotional address about Mesoamerica and the BoM, in the Q/A period:

Beyond smug.

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak,

dif

Yes, it's well accepted that Peru had early metallurgy. It is not accepted that Mesoamerica had early metallurgy. The pictures you provide that have no dates attached are worthless. I asked you to provide clear, substantiated evidence of metal weapons or metallurgy prior to 800 AD in Mesoamerica. You still have not done so.

Did you even bother to research the time periods of the various cultures these tools and weapons were found in? It would see since you hold to tightly to the scientific approach, you'd appreciate the fact that the Moche, Mixtec, Chimu and the others that were documented in various museums from South America to the US wouldn't mistate these cultures that the metal weapons were found in. The physical evidences are overwhelming. The Adena or Mississippian cultures alone left so much coper and bronze artifacts behind it can't be ignored of dismissed.

[gtaggart]

That's pretty smug, considering there are definitely 2 camps of thought on this. Academia vs. The Brethren, in most cases.

I'll stick with the latter, thanks.

Geeze, please don't go there. The Brethren and the Church take no position on the location of Book of Mormon lands. There have been individuals among the Brethren who have, but there is no official position, and the positions vary among those Brethren who have taken one. So which one are you going to "stick" to? It's simplistic in the extreme to say that it's "Academia vs. The Brethren."

[Sevenbak]

Geeze, please don't go there. The Brethren and the Church take no position on the location of Book of Mormon lands. There have been individuals among the Brethren who have, but there is no official position, and the positions vary among those Brethren who have taken one. So which one are you going to "stick" to? It's simplistic in the extreme to say that it's "Academia vs. The Brethren."

Let me rephrase then. The brethren are very careful about taking sides in this debate, between the two camps. But statements made from Joseph Smith down as well as modern prophets reside in the Hemispheric model, so I will err on the side of, yes, the Brethren. I've been ridiculed on here for doing so, but so be it.

[gtaggart]

Let me rephrase then. The brethren are very careful about taking sides in this debate, between the two camps. But statements made from Joseph Smith down as well as modern prophets reside in the Hemispheric model, so I will err on the side of, yes, the Brethren. I've been ridiculed on here for doing so, but so be it.

Then Joseph apparently had a more open mind than you.

Do you somehow imagine that the Brethren and the Academics are at war on this issue?

[Sevenbak]

Then Joseph apparently had a more open mind than you.

Do you somehow imagine that the Brethren and the Academics are at war on this issue?

What's that supposed to mean exactly?

The only war I see going on is here. I don't see the brethren warring among scholars at FARMS or elsewhere. In fact, they are telling us that the BOM is not intended as a geographical map, and to that I agree completely. But I also will not discount the words of JS listing both North America as well as Meso America as the BOM settings. I also see no discrepancy in the text for for such a view.

Call me old fashioned, but that's just me.