Robert Millet and the Atonement

[Lamanite]

From his book Grace Works pg. 2-3:

"...If I might adapt the words of C.S. Lewis slightly, I believe in and cherish Christs "as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. Truth, glorious truth, proclaims there is...a Mediator," Elder Boyd K. Packer testified. "Through Him mercy can be fully extended to each of us without offending the eternal law of justice." Now note these words. "This truth is the very root of Christian doctrine. YOu many know much about the gospel as it branches out from there, but if you only know the branches and those branches do not touch that root, if they have been cut free from that truth, thre will be no life nor substance nor redemption in them."

Does anyone else think we get caught up in the "branches" on this board? And, perhaps the purpose of the board has nothing to do with the idea that Jesus lived and died for our sins, and that he was Resurrected that we might also live again? Perhaps it is because there really is nothing to debate whatever about it? There is no archaeological evidence to support a Supreme Sacrifice nor can we gather empirical data on the Resurrection and its possible implications for us. So we're left talking about Chiasmus and Tapir's.

Random thoughts as I was reading this.

More from Millet:

"Many years ago a colleague and I were conversing about the gospel, about life here and life hereafter. I made the rather offhand comment, on the reflected my momentary shallowness, "I just want to get hereafter what I deserve." My friend leaned forward, looked me sternly in the ey, and responded, "Bob, you had better pray to God that you never get what you deserve!"

I saw this attitude of "just give us what we've got coming", about 3 Sundays ago. We were discussing Mormon and the wicked people of the Nephites. Mormon condemned them for their wickedness. Loud cries of assent and agreement are heard from the pews. (slightly exaggerated)

So I ask where did those people's Spirits go when they died?

Answered: Spirit World.

I asked what part of the Spirit World?

Answered: Spirit Prison.

I asked, Who unlocked the Gates of the Spirit Prison for the Preaching of the Gospel.

Answered reluctantly now: The Savior

I ask, So acceptance of the Gospel and thereby repentance is possible after death?

Answered: Crickets...then a discussion ensues about how the same spirit that inhabits our bodies....unlikely to change...blah blah.

I answered and asked: Yes their rebellious Spirits will exist there as they did here. But make no mistake repentance is available and possible for them, and some, maybe even a great deal of them will accept. I do Temple work for many people. Maybe people who were rebellious. And I don't believe for a second that there are not a great deal of people accepting the Gospel and the vicarious ordinances performed for them.

Answered: More emphatically now, by one good brother, justice won't allow it! (And here is the kicker) We've worked hard down here! Why should they be able to live like that and just repent later?

murmurs of assent ripple through the crowd.

I felt bad. I felt bad for those that agreed with the last statement about justice and hard work. These types of sentiments aren't new. In fact, they have been taught to one degree or another up until President Kimball at least.

Are brother Millet and others like him helping to change the paradigms we as a Church hold about Justice, Mercy, Grace, and Works? Or, perhaps this is a mistaken view I alone hold about the Church. Perhaps they are giving away too much and forfeiting a unique part of Mormon Doctrine?

Just some thoughts as I was reading this morning. Glad you guys are out there, otherwise I'd have to share my weird ideas and questions in EQ. And you know how that goes.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[charity's child]

From his book Grace Works pg. 2-3:

Does anyone else think we get caught up in the "branches" on this board? And, perhaps the purpose of the board has nothing to do with the idea that Jesus lived and died for our sins, and that he was Resurrected that we might also live again? Perhaps it is because there really is nothing to debate whatever about it? There is no archaeological evidence to support a Supreme Sacrifice nor can we gather empirical data on the Resurrection and its possible implications for us. So we're left talking about Chiasmus and Tapir's.

Exactly. In fact, I think we spend most of our time on the twigs here.

[Stargazer]

I greatly enjoyed your remarks, Lamanite. It ought to be clear to anyone knowledgeable about the Gospel that repentance and subsequent exaltation (not just salvation from punishment) is possible for those in Spirit Prison. But too many people do not have forgiving hearts, and they may give lip service to "...forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us", but they are rather too cheerful at the "comeupance of the wicked", whereas I am sure Father is hoping for as many as His children as possible, not just the ones who were relative "goody twoshoes" in life, to return Home to Him. And has made provision for the possibility.

What too many of us forget is that whether one commits one sin or ten thousand, we are all equally lost. It may be more difficult for a person with ten thousand sins to repent, but repentance aside, without Christ's atonement we are all in the same place: without hope of redemption. And equally guilty. With repentance and Christ's atonement, we are also equally worthy.

[blackstrap]

So how does this square with who goes to which kingdom as per the D&C. Is there a place for those who think that they can repent later and willingly and with knowledge of forethought ,sin ?? Sin without knowledge is one thing. Sinning despite knowledge is another.

[orion88]

I have not read any of his books, but does Mr. Millet believe he must

repay the debt to the benefactor Jesus?

"'Then,' said the benefactor, 'you will pay the debt to me and I will set

the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way.

You need not go to prison.'" (Gospel Principles, chapter 12, p. 77, The

Mediator, Ensign, May 1977, pp. 54-55).

Tony

[LifeOnaPlate]

The terms are faith, repent, baptism, gift of holy ghost. Receiving further gifts as being part of "paying" my debt is a pretty good deal.

[Lamanite]

I have not read any of his books, but does Mr. Millet believe he must

repay the debt to the benefactor Jesus?

"'Then,' said the benefactor, 'you will pay the debt to me and I will set

the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way.

You need not go to prison.'" (Gospel Principles, chapter 12, p. 77, The

Mediator, Ensign, May 1977, pp. 54-55).

Tony

We will always be "unprofitable" servants. There is no amount of work we could do to "repay" The Savior.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[blackstrap]

If one thinks repentance is not "work" ,then it has not been attempted.

[LifeOnaPlate]

According to the Book of Mormon, no amount of works will ever repay Christ.

[orion88]

According to the Book of Mormon, no amount of works will ever repay Christ.

So why do those passages in Gospel Principles and Ensign say you must repay

the debt to Jesus?

Tony

[urroner]

So why do those passages in Gospel Principles and Ensign say you must repay

the debt to Jesus?

Tony

Christ sets the payment. It's up to him, but I doubt that it's going to be the "cheap grace" I heard from too many people. It's that old "I'm saved by grace and I don't have to do squat now" and don't tell me that I haven't ever heard that before. I have heard many EVers tell me that once they were saved, it didn't matter what they did afterward, they were saved, and many of them were living pamphlets of Sodom and Gomorrah, but they were still saved.

[Lamanite]

Christ sets the payment. It's up to him, but I doubt that it's going to be the "cheap grace" I heard from too many people. It's that old "I'm saved by grace and I don't have to do squat now" and don't tell me that I haven't ever heard that before. I have heard many EVers tell me that once they were saved, it didn't matter what they did afterward, they were saved, and many of them were living pamphlets of Sodom and Gomorrah, but they were still saved.

I should have said this in the OP, but I was hoping to keep this discussion limited to a Mormon view of the Atonement. If that won't work then no prob.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[urroner]

I should have said this in the OP, but I was hoping to keep this discussion limited to a Mormon view of the Atonement. If that won't work then no prob.

Big UP!

Lamanite

Sorry, will do. Forget the "Cheap Grace" comment. Open a new thread if you want to talk about it please.

As far as the repayment goes, it's up to Christ to set it, not me, not the prophet, not the EVer down the street; it's up to Christ. If he tells me that it means me doing X, then it means doing X. If it means not doing anything, then I guess that is what I'll do.

[Lamanite]

Sorry, will do. Forget the "Cheap Grace" comment. Open a new thread if you want to talk about it please.

As far as the repayment goes, it's up to Christ to set it, not me, not the prophet, not the EVer down the street; it's up to Christ. If he tells me that it means me doing X, then it means doing X. If it means not doing anything, then I guess that is what I'll do.

My wife will tell you that I always choose the latter. At least as it pertains to housework.

I don't think the grace is cheap. I just think the Atonement has been completed. We need only accept it, just like Alma the Younger and Enos did. Then live a life where conversion is a process not an event. Which I think they did.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[urroner]

My wife will tell you that I always choose the latter. At least as it pertains to housework.

I don't think the grace is cheap. I just think the Atonement has been completed. We need only accept it, just like Alma the Younger and Enos did. Then live a life where conversion is a process not an event. Which I think they did.

Big UP!

Lamanite

When I said "you can open up a new thread," I didn't mean you you. I meant whomever wanted to talk about it. My bad.

As a matter of curiosity, what did you mean by "We need only accept it..." What does accepting it entail? I think I know what you mean by the rest of you post, but too many say that it's a destination and not a journey or a process of becoming more godlike.

[coolrok7]

From his book Grace Works pg. 2-3:

Does anyone else think we get caught up in the "branches" on this board? And, perhaps the purpose of the board has nothing to do with the idea that Jesus lived and died for our sins, and that he was Resurrected that we might also live again? Perhaps it is because there really is nothing to debate whatever about it? There is no archaeological evidence to support a Supreme Sacrifice nor can we gather empirical data on the Resurrection and its possible implications for us. So we're left talking about Chiasmus and Tapir's.

Random thoughts as I was reading this.

More from Millet:

I saw this attitude of "just give us what we've got coming", about 3 Sundays ago. We were discussing Mormon and the wicked people of the Nephites. Mormon condemned them for their wickedness. Loud cries of assent and agreement are heard from the pews. . .

Lamanite

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloeâ??s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, â??I am of Paul,â? or â??I am of Apollos,â? or â??I am of Cephas,â? or â??I am of Christ.â? Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Corinthians 1:10-13)

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phillipians 2:9-11)

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:10-13)

Other religious traditions ask?

What about Buddha, Confucius, Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Bahaâ?? uâ?? llah, Mary Baker Eddy, Charles Taze Russell, Herbert W. Armstrong, Victor Paul Weirewille, Sun Myung Moon, Helen Schucman, etc, etc..

These will mislead one to eternal punishment. The only one who says yea or nay to where we spend eternity is Jesus:

Thomas said to Him, â??Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?â? Jesus said to him, â??I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (John 14:5-6)

It is Jesus who makes it possible for us to be in His presence when He comes back for us on judgment day (He took our sin while on the cross and we are forgiven on the basis of our repentance; in exchange He gives us His righteousness and eternal life).

Notice the following statement from the, â??WHAT THE MORMONS THINK OF CHRISTâ? pamphlet, under the section- Blood of Christ, it says:

Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose oneâ??s salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean. (pp.19-20)

Contrast the above with the following (to believe in Jesus is not â??mere beliefâ?):

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1:6-7)

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; . . . But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. . . . And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (Ephesians 1:7; 2:13, 16-17)

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:9-10)

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (1 Peter 1:18-19)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the under-standing of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:17-23)

The apostle Paul gives these words of Jesus to us, in the recounting of his road to Damascus experience, as recorded by Luke:

And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, â??Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.â?? So I said, â??Who are You, Lord?â?? And He said, â??I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.â?? (Acts 26:14-18)

The only thing we earn/merit/work for is death because we can never â??be ye perfectâ? on our own. At the end of everyoneâ??s life is death. This is not the end of our existence. It is the beginning of eternity in the context of where one will spend it (either as a sheep or goat):

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

â??For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.â?? (Matthew 25: 29-30)

â??When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. . . .Then He will also say to those on the left hand, â??Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.â?? â??Then they also will answer Him, saying, â??Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?â?? Then He will answer them, saying, â??Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.â?? And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.â? (Matthew 25:31-33, 41-46)

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

The following is not in accordance with Salvation as taught in the Bible:

You May Earn Salvation through Christ (THE PURPOSE OF LIFE pamphlet, p.4)

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

No one can earn the gift of â??eternal lifeâ?. Grace means unmerited favor. I donâ??t see where the following answers given, reflects the meaning of the term. The Mormon Church (Joseph Smith), Elder Neal A. Maxwell or Robert Millet does not give the Biblical answer:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

. . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon)

Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23)

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice. . .This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. . . .(AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. . .GRACE WORKS, Robert L. Millet, p.18)

Anyone that says eternal life is earned merited or worked for is not telling the â??Truthâ?!:

But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.(2 Timothy 3:13-17)

Mormonism would have one try to earn something that is a gift by following laws:

nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

In the 1985 Gospel Principles manual, in the chapter on Exaltation, it says the following:

REQUIREMENTS FOR EXALTATION

. . .There are specific ordinances we must have received to be exalted:

1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the

Church of Jesus Christ.

2. We must receive the Holy Ghost.

3. We must receive the temple endowment.

4. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to the required ordinances, there are also many laws we have to obey to qualify for exaltation--We must . . . (p.291)

This is the way our Heavenly Father became a God. . . .Joseph Smith taught, â??it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . .he was once a man like us, . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself didâ? (p.293; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-46[King Follet Discourse])

In the book of Romans:

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtorsâ??not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, â??Abba, Father.â? The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirsâ??heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against Godâ??s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:

â??For Your sake we are killed all day long;

We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.â?

Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Coolrok: none of those things would mean anything without the atonement of Christ.

[Rob Osborn]

I ask, So acceptance of the Gospel and thereby repentance is possible after death?

Answered: Crickets...then a discussion ensues about how the same spirit that inhabits our bodies....unlikely to change...blah blah.

I answered and asked: Yes their rebellious Spirits will exist there as they did here. But make no mistake repentance is available and possible for them, and some, maybe even a great deal of them will accept. I do Temple work for many people. Maybe people who were rebellious. And I don't believe for a second that there are not a great deal of people accepting the Gospel and the vicarious ordinances performed for them.

Answered: More emphatically now, by one good brother, justice won't allow it! (And here is the kicker) We've worked hard down here! Why should they be able to live like that and just repent later?

murmurs of assent ripple through the crowd.

I felt bad. I felt bad for those that agreed with the last statement about justice and hard work. These types of sentiments aren't new. In fact, they have been taught to one degree or another up until President Kimball at least.

Are brother Millet and others like him helping to change the paradigms we as a Church hold about Justice, Mercy, Grace, and Works? Or, perhaps this is a mistaken view I alone hold about the Church. Perhaps they are giving away too much and forfeiting a unique part of Mormon Doctrine?

Just some thoughts as I was reading this morning. Glad you guys are out there, otherwise I'd have to share my weird ideas and questions in EQ. And you know how that goes.

Big UP!

Lamanite

Interesting indeed! This was discussed in our class today also. We were running out of time and I wanted to mention that although the same spirit that we possess will be the same in the spirit world, there is a big difference when one finds himself suffering in torment for the sins he had committed in mortality. Spirit prison is designed specifically so that the spirits of the wicked do suffer so that they will want to repent. According to the laws of heaven, if a man wants to change he shall be enabled- that is why we have the atonement. Most of the wicked who depart mortality and are delivered up unto hell/ spirit prison will have a change of heart and will repent and accept the gospel. Who wants to suffer in torment forever, I mean really! There is a notion in the church that a wicked person will not change in the spirit world because nothing changes for them- they just will continue to be wicked. That is a false notion. Most people are not aware of the afterlife or of the pre-earth life and their relationship to deity. When they come to a better realization of who they are becoming compared with who they at one time wanted to become they will have an overwhelming desire to change. If they do not act upon that desire then the torment will only grow inside of them forever and ever. That is why i believe it possible and probable that even the most wicked and vile of people will change at some point. For most sinners, they just will not become converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ in this life- that is why the gospel is taught in the spirit world- to continue to advance mankind to the point of change. It will surprize us to see just how rapidly and thouroughly the wicked will change when they suffer in spirit prison for a while with a guilty conscience!

[Lamanite]

Coolrok: none of those things would mean anything without the atonement of Christ.

Agreed.

Without the Atoning Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, you could get baptized by President Monson till you were wrinkled and it would avail you nothing. Same goes for every other ordinance or act of obedience and righteousness we perform; without Him there is no salvational value.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[shalamabobbi]

To OP

Yes we can repent after death but as I read the DC the reward is not the same unless the dead person didn't have the opportunity to hear the gospel in mortality and also would have received and lived it here had he been given the opportunity to do so.(As judged by God)

Someone who receives the gosple after, that had the opportunity here but refused it here, receives no more than a terrestrial glory at best according to the DC76.

My thought is that the blame will be laid on those who knowingly are responsible such as Laman and Lemuel being guilty for that situation arising for their descendants.

As for members who grumble at forgiveness for others the scriptures are pretty clear they are guilty of the greater sin.

We will always be "unprofitable" servants. There is no amount of work we could do to "repay" The Savior.

But we give him our best and our all, also scriptural.

King Benjamin is the one who stated that we are unprofitable servants no matter how great our service is.

He also said he labored "to serve you with all the might, mind and strength which the Lord hath granted unto me." Mos 2:11

Why? "I tell you these things that ye may know that I can answer a clear conscience before God this day." v15

We need only accept it, just like Alma the Younger and Enos did.

Alma went through hell for 3 days - nigh unto death. Enos stayed on his knees for an entire day.

If we follow that example maybe we receive that reward.

If we call that easy, and compare it to something really easy - doing little to nothing, and then expect the same reward I think we're being dishonest.

[Lamanite]

To OP

Yes we can repent after death but as I read the DC the reward is not the same unless the dead person didn't have the opportunity to hear the gospel in mortality and also would have received and lived it here had he been given the opportunity to do so.(As judged by God)

Someone who receives the gosple after, that had the opportunity here but refused it here, receives no more than a terrestrial glory at best according to the DC76.

Your statement is doctrinally inaccurate. Please provide a specific verse(s) within 76 to substantiate your assertion.

My thought is that the blame will be laid on those who knowingly are responsible such as Laman and Lemuel being guilty for that situation arising for their descendants.

So you do not believe the Atonement to be infinite and eternal? Exactly why couldn't Laman and Lemuel receive exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom?

But we give him our best and our all, also scriptural.

You make this statement as if I was saying something different.

King Benjamin is the one who stated that we are unprofitable servants no matter how great our service is.

He also said he labored "to serve you with all the might, mind and strength which the Lord hath granted unto me." Mos 2:11

Why? "I tell you these things that ye may know that I can answer a clear conscience before God this day." v15

Alma went through hell for 3 days - nigh unto death. Enos stayed on his knees for an entire day.

If we follow that example maybe we receive that reward.

If we call that easy, and compare it to something really easy - doing little to nothing, and then expect the same reward I think we're being dishonest.

First, you imply that Alma's suffering was required. Where does it say that? To be sure, it was a precursor to his "remembering" something his Father taught him concerning the Christ, and once he caught hold of that thought, his joy was exquisite. His feelings of extreme guilt were not of God, IMO. Godly sorrow is not how I would describe his feelings of anguish.

Secondly, you don't know if Enos stayed on his knees for an entire day. I'd CFR you on this but I already know there is no reference.

The pattern was the same for Enos as it was for Alma. Recognize your sin, accept Jesus as your Savior, and accept His forgiveness. It's more simple than some Saints want it to be, again IMHO. And although I would say it is extremely simple, it is rarely easy.

You mention King Benjamin:

[2]And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.

[3] And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins...

Perhaps the pattern is this.

Recognize your carnal and fallen state.

Ask for mercy and to have the atoning blood of Christ applied to your carnal and sinful state.

And after they cried aloud; they received complete and total forgiveness.

Implied in their request is that we " believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things;" and that he has Atoned for every human misdeed, pain, sorrow, affliction, sickness etc., and is pleading with us to accept his Grace and Forgiveness.

And pleading with the Father on our behalf:

3 Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before himâ??

4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;

5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life. D&C 45

Sounds like the Son of God has said we should simply believe on his name, so that we will come unto him and have everlasting life.

From President Young:

If you commit an overt act, repent of that immediately, and call upon God to deliver you from evil and give you the ligh of His Spirit...If I commit an overt act, the Lord knows the intergrity of my heart, and, through sincere repentance, He forgives me. JoD

:103

I don't think we should wait till the Sacrament on Sunday to start Repenting. Do you?

Moreover, how much time and suffering does it take to repent for swearing? Same question for lying? How about spiritually murdering a multitude of People, like Alma the Younger did? Just 3 days? Isn't that getting off kind of easy?

How about Alma's son Corianton? He committed a number of sins including chasing and sleeping with at least one Harlot in the city he was supposed to be preaching in. His dad forgives him and sends him back out into the field and says that God's mercy is forthcoming if he will but "do good".

It's interesting how many people beg for what they have coming. Like President Faust has said; I never pray for justice, only for God's mercy. And we all know that the arms of his Love and his tender mercy are extended eternally towards us.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Earl]

I answered and asked: Yes their rebellious Spirits will exist there as they did here. But make no mistake repentance is available and possible for them, and some, maybe even a great deal of them will accept. I do Temple work for many people. Maybe people who were rebellious. And I don't believe for a second that there are not a great deal of people accepting the Gospel and the vicarious ordinances performed for them.

Answered: More emphatically now, by one good brother, justice won't allow it! (And here is the kicker) We've worked hard down here! Why should they be able to live like that and just repent later?

murmurs of assent ripple through the crowd.

I felt bad. I felt bad for those that agreed with the last statement about justice and hard work. These types of sentiments aren't new. In fact, they have been taught to one degree or another up until President Kimball at least.

Are brother Millet and others like him helping to change the paradigms we as a Church hold about Justice, Mercy, Grace, and Works? Or, perhaps this is a mistaken view I alone hold about the Church. Perhaps they are giving away too much and forfeiting a unique part of Mormon Doctrine?

Lamanite

Sadly, I also have encountered this very same reaction while teaching GD. And, I do agree that what you describe as the "kicker" is also a common response among LDS members. Very sad. Such an "kicker" attitude (I will not elevate it to a doctrine):

[1] Is a perverted and un-Christian concept of fairness.

[2] Makes a rather off-handed and serious assumption that somehow it is more desirable and fun to "live like that" - when just the opposite is true. A fullness of joy is not found in living outside of the gospel. When LDS church members would somehow feel that they are missing something belies a fundamental flaw in their understanding of the Atonement and mortality.

[3] Makes a mockery of Christ's teaching of the prodgical son.

[4] Just drips with a prideful heart.

[5] Implies a serious error regarding the status and efficacy of their percieved good works.

Are the hearts of those who profess this so perverted that they would not rejoice AT ANY TIME when a son or daughter of god repents? Such is the difference between the love of god and the love of man.

Let me also add that the saving benefits of the Atonement cover those of our brethren and sisters who willfully sin here in mortality with the expectation of repenting in the hereafter as well as those of our brethren and sisters who are puffed-up and prideful in their hearts and who erroneously limit and restrict the power of the Atonement.

Earl

[Lamanite]

...

Indeed!

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Tanyan]

Other religious traditions ask?

What about Buddha, Confucius, Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Baha' u' llah, Mary Baker Eddy, Charles Taze Russell, Herbert W. Armstrong, Victor Paul Weirewille, Sun Myung Moon, Helen Schucman, etc, etc..

These will mislead one to eternal punishment. The only one who says yea or nay to where we spend eternity is Jesus:

It is Jesus who makes it possible for us to be in His presence when He comes back for us on judgment day (He took our sin while on the cross and we are forgiven on the basis of our repentance; in exchange He gives us His righteousness and eternal life).

Notice the following statement from the, "WHAT THE MORMONS THINK OF CHRIST" pamphlet, under the section- Blood of Christ, it says:

Contrast the above with the following (to believe in Jesus is not "mere belief"):

The apostle Paul gives these words of Jesus to us, in the recounting of his road to Damascus experience, as recorded by Luke:

The only thing we earn/merit/work for is death because we can never "be ye perfect" on our own. At the end of everyone's life is death. This is not the end of our existence. It is the beginning of eternity in the context of where one will spend it (either as a sheep or goat):

The following is not in accordance with Salvation as taught in the Bible:

No one can earn the gift of "eternal life". Grace means unmerited favor. I don't see where the following answers given, reflects the meaning of the term. The Mormon Church (Joseph Smith), Elder Neal A. Maxwell or Robert Millet does not give the Biblical answer:

Anyone that says eternal life is earned merited or worked for is not telling the "Truth"!:

Mormonism would have one try to earn something that is a gift by following laws:

In the 1985 Gospel Principles manual, in the chapter on Exaltation, it says the following:

In the book of Romans:

We cannot "earn" the "gift" = Jesus Christs Blood Sacrrifice for us, but we earn the right to "'Keep" The "Free Gift'' -Our way of Saying "Thank you", "Work we must but the Lunch is Free !".

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[shalamabobbi]

Your statement is doctrinally inaccurate. Please provide a specific verse(s) within 76 to substantiate your assertion.

DC 76:71-80 specifically verse 74. verse 79 says even those who receive the gospel in mortality but are not valiant get a terrestrial glory.

If this violates an infinite atonement how do you account for the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom being "innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven" verse109.

So you do not believe the Atonement to be infinite and eternal? Exactly why couldn't Laman and Lemuel receive exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom?

Because they were murderers. They attempted murder upon Nephi on four separate occasions in the BOM. I'll provide those citations if you want.

You make this statement as if I was saying something different.

It sounded as if maybe you were..

First, you imply that Alma's suffering was required. Where does it say that?

His suffering was the result of his sins. Whether that is a natural consequence or comes from God to prod change I'll leave for speculation..

it was a precursor to his "remembering" something his Father taught him concerning the Christ, and once he caught hold of that thought, his joy was exquisite.

Actually it was more than just a precursor,

Mosiah 27:24 I have repented of my sins

v28 after wading through much tribulation, repenting nigh unto death, the Lord in mercy hath seen fit to snatch me out of an everlasting burning..

that initial phase of repentence lasted 3 days.

I am not certain that the torment went away the instant he thought of the Savior or if after he had changed sufficiently God sent the spirit to deliver him.

Pain for wrong doing serves a very useful purpose the same as pain for placing your hand in the flames serves a purpose. It needs to be great enough to teach the lesson that needs to be learned.

A new phase of repentance began after the Lord forgave his sins

v35 And they traveled throughout all the land of Zarahemla, and among all the people who were under the reign of king Mosiah, zealously striving to repair all the injuries which they had done to the church, confessing all their sins..

I think this process continued for the rest of his life as occasion provided opportunity to do so.

His feelings of extreme guilt were not of God, IMO. Godly sorrow is not how I would describe his feelings of anguish.

Whether or not they were of God, is irrelevant. They cannot just be wafted away without going through a serious process of change and pleading with God for forgiveness. I know. I've been there, done that thank you..

Secondly, you don't know if Enos stayed on his knees for an entire day. I'd CFR you on this but I already know there is no reference.

Enos 3,4 I went to hunt beasts in the forest(something that usually starts early in the day IMO) And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul; and all the day long did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it reached the heavens.

And there came a voice unto me saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.

There is room for some speculation there but this was not a 5 or 10 minute prayer.

The pattern was the same for Enos as it was for Alma. Recognize your sin, accept Jesus as your Savior, and accept His forgiveness. It's more simple than some Saints want it to be, again IMHO. And although I would say it is extremely simple, it is rarely easy.

The difficulty is in facing your sins with Him holding your hand. You have to uncover your past deeds and that is a difficult process. You have to commit not to continue anymore in those sins. The whole thing can't be accomplished in 30 minutes and 'it is not easy' is an understatement. Repentance is necessary to the extent that a change in behavior can be effected thereafter.

The degree of that struggle depends on the degree of the error and what is necessary to bring about an enduring change of behavior. Then there is the same process in front of a judge in Israel, the bishop, which can be even harder for some. Alma went beyond that requirement and confessed to all it seems.

I agree that we should get to it and take care of it as soon as it is needed to deal with it and not let it smolder for long periods of time. If that is your intended message I whole heartedly agree with you.

The people of King Benjamin were pretty righteous to begin with I suspect by how fluidly the process went for them..

again whether it will be easy or difficult depends on the individual and his sins.. IMHO

As for the other posters comment about the prodigal son account, remember that he spent his inheritance. That portion left to the other son belonged to the other son. It did not get re-divided between the brothers. So how you'd like to interpret that is up to you. I will say that whether it represents an eternal consequence or a mortal consequence only, it still represents a consequence. This implies that the concepts of forgiveness and reward are not equivalent.