Robert Millet and the Atonement

[sean0scott]

If you want my official Mormongelical stance...

We are saved by grace.

We are judged according to our works.

Salvation is a free gift. Our works do not enter into the equation. After our salvation...

[Rob Osborn]

DC 76:71-80 specifically verse 74. verse 79 says even those who receive the gospel in mortality but are not valiant get a terrestrial glory.

If this violates an infinite atonement how do you account for the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom being "innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven" verse109.

I would like to take a chance to answer this question. If we go back to the beginning of where it begins discussing the terrestrial inhabitants we find some very interesting things. Starting in verse 72 it speaks of a certain group of people-

72 Behold, these are they who died without law;

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:72)

This group is different than the second group mentioned-

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:73 - 74)

Now I am assuming here that the first group is obviously not part of the second group. So who is this first group, and more importantly who is the second group? The first group upon death did not need togo to the spirit prison- most possibly because they were not the ones who while in mortality were wicked and disobedient to the law otherwise they would have died "inside the law". It may be the "heathen nations' who know not God because of a general lack of opportunity and it may even iclude little children who died before becoming accountable. It may also include the handicapped who die because they too are outside of the law. One thing is for sure though- they cannot be judged by the law because they are outside of the law. tHis leads me to believe that things certainly are not as they appear! Are these who died without law eternally screwed then just because they happened to fall into a category where they cannot be judged by the law? Some interesting and problematic scenerios arise from just the brief overview of things.

Now this second group is equally mysterious. We know that they died "inside the law" because they were judged by the law and sent to the spirit prison because they were judged against their spiritual light and knowledge of good and bad! This can come from just general disobedience to the prophets or from just a wicked personality- someone not fit for paradise because of their wicked natures! On any account, they are just not fit for paradise upon death because they were within the law of justice and failed to show goodness that would have merited them peace and rest in paradise. But does this mean that they are eternally screwed also?

Do you see where this is heading? We know for a surity that this second group repents while in the spirit world and are baptized and receive their endowment in the temple. All this is done as if they were in the flesh for the sole purpose that they will be judged as if they had done it themsleves while in the flesh! So how does this fit with the gospel picture where it is taught that the law of the celestial kingdom is the gospel itself? Why are they learning and showing obedience to the celestial law if they can only merit a terrestrial glory? Ah, this is where the two groups should raise a red flag in the gospel perspective coupled with a misconception about the glories themselves!

First off, there would be no need to repent and become baptised vicariously if they were indeed judged by their "actual deeds in mortality" leaving the vicarious work aside. The reason for vicarious work is so that just men who either neglected the gospel or didn't have the chance can still be saved and be judged as if they had done it themselves in mortality. They will not be judged in the spirit but in the flesh- what they did in mortality. A person who has vicarious work done for tham who accept that work will be judged as if they had accepted it in the flesh. This means that this second group who are in spirit prison and then accept the gospel will be judged as if they had done so while in the flesh! This merits them a celestial glory if they hold faithful.

But what of the terrestrial world where they go? Not problematic at all! They will go to the terrestrial world along with those who died without law. Those who died without law will be raised to the terrestrial world along with all the unvaliant and those who accepted and repented in the spirit prison. The terrestrial world though is not what we think it is. The terrestrial world is the world during the millennium when Christ reigns. Under this reasoning is the only possibility for not creating problematic scenerios.

I will post more on it later, but certainly some things to think about!

[Lamanite]

DC 76:71-80 specifically verse 74. verse 79 says even those who receive the gospel in mortality but are not valiant get a terrestrial glory.

If this violates an infinite atonement how do you account for the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom being "innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven" verse109.

I agree that those who are not valiant in their testimony of Christ will receive a terrestrial glory. But this statement does not negate the ability one has to repent after death in the Spirit World, or even after the First and Second Resurrection during the Millennium.

For clarifications lets look at D&C 138:

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in edarkness, even to fall the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (Just like Laman and Lemuel did)

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

It's pretty clear from these scriptures that those who were held captive because they rejected the truth and the Prophets had an opportunity to again hear the Gospel preached and again given the opportunity to Repent, even unto Salvation.

Because they were murderers. They attempted murder upon Nephi on four separate occasions in the BOM. I'll provide those citations if you want.

I know 3 men who are guilty of attempted murder who now have TR's and hold callings in the Church. Should I go ahead and let them know the First Presidency made a mistake. One of the guys attempted to murder his own wife. There is 60minutes expose on him. He's a good guy.

His suffering was the result of his sins. Whether that is a natural consequence or comes from God to prod change I'll leave for speculation..

I go with natural consequence of sin.

Actually it was more than just a precursor,

Mosiah 27:24 I have repented of my sins

v28 after wading through much tribulation, repenting nigh unto death, the Lord in mercy hath seen fit to snatch me out of an everlasting burning..

that initial phase of repentence lasted 3 days.

You have intentionally ignored his second account.

13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had crebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.

14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.

15 Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.

16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul.

17 And it came to pass that as I was thus aracked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold,

His torment was because he "remembered" all his sins. He was "racked" with pain and torment because he was "harrowed up by the MEMORY" of his many sins. God didn't cause this suffering, Alma did just fine by himself feeling sufficiently guilty just by remembering his sins.

I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am bin the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

20 And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

So Alma cries out for Mercy (not justice) and bing bang boom, Forgiveness. He wasn't "harrowed up by the memory of [his] sins" anymore. Justice and Mercy were satisfied and the affects of sin were abolished.

I'm not sure why you keep describing repentance in phases? I believe conversion is a life long process. But, repentance like in the case of Alma, was instantaneous when he cried out to the Son of God for mercy.

There is room for some speculation there but this was not a 5 or 10 minute prayer.

Agreed. I've prayed all day too, simply by having a prayer in my heart. Kind of like the way we "Always remember him". Elder Eyring has written extensively on this topic.

You have to uncover your past deeds and that is a difficult process.

My sins have the tendency to be "GLARING". It's not that difficult to uncover my sins. Now as far as digging through the past...

Please see Shayne Bowen for instructions on digging up the past garbage in your life.

The people of King Benjamin were pretty righteous to begin with I suspect by how fluidly the process went for them..

That's a cop out in my opinion. The process is the same for all of us, if we will but accept the process.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[shalamabobbi]

from the talk.

our Father in Heaven and His Son, Jesus Christ, feel sorrow when we choose to remain in sin

There is a requirement to confess one's sins in order to receive forgiveness.

There is a requirement to abandon one's sins in order to receive forgiveness.

These I am calling repentance.

And if I am not a member, baptism is required to receive forgiveness.

Digging through the garbage is necessary to some extent in order to confess your sins right?

You do it to confront your sins and deal with them in order to be able to let them go and move on. If you just bury them and never address them they'll remain there forever haunting you.

If you are suggesting that whatever your past mistakes are, you simply think of Christ and instantly you'll feel forgiveness I'll respectfully disagree.

I know my own experience didn't work that way and I've known many others who would also disagree.

I agree that those who are not valiant in their testimony of Christ will receive a terrestrial glory. But this statement does not negate the ability one has to repent after death in the Spirit World, or even after the First and Second Resurrection during the Millennium.

No I suppose it doesn't. Repentance is always in order. But read Alma 34:32-39. Maybe Alma is wrong? Maybe it is a doctrine not revealed at that time but to be revealed later? If you'd like to take that gamble, fine. I am not so sure that your interpretation is correct. You are equating forgiveness with reward. They are separate concepts.

If I am disobedient to the standards of conduct at BYU for example and I am expelled and through whatever they require of me I am re-admitted I have been "forgiven" in that I have been re-admitted. But going on to graduate (the reward) is still something I have to do. I might stop the education process and leave school and never graduate and thereby lose the reward even though I am forgiven.

Don't carry this analogy too far. It is simply to illustrate the idea that being forgiven of sin does not equate with the various rewards of eternity.

Now Paul says there are bodies celestial, and bodies terrestrial etc. Indicating that perhaps once resurrected there is something permanently distinct in the glory of the resurrected body itself that will never change. I remember a verse where God says something to the effect that where I am they cannot come because they have no power. I can accept the idea that God could with His body walk the surface of the sun without harm.

My understanding from the spirit touching upon the DC76 doctrines is that if we repent in the spirit world when we could have done so here that our reward is the terrestrial. That the day of this life is the time for men to perform their labors. That when the night comes we cannot say, etc.

I also heard a personal account from a stake high councilor as follows. He told me that of a relative (non-member) of his that had refused the missionary lessons and had never joined the church. He had died and shortly thereafter visited him and told him that he had heard the gospel preached and accepted it that he might live unto God in the spirit, but be judged according to men in the flesh, and receive a terrestrial glory, and wanted him to do his temple work.

I would suggest before teaching this speculative idea that rewards for accepting the gospel at various stages of our eternal journey are all equivalent that you address the issue to the office of the first presidency for clarification first to see how they respond.

Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

Again nothing suggests that the reward is equivalent. As JFS stated you have to repent(and I'm assuming accept the gospel at some point) to go to any degree of glory.

It's pretty clear from these scriptures that those who were held captive because they rejected the truth and the Prophets had an opportunity to again hear the Gospel preached and again given the opportunity to Repent, even unto Salvation.

"Salvation" refers to all three glories, celestial, terrestrial and telestial. The only one's who are not "saved" are sons of perdition who paradoxically also must first be baptized to receive that "glory".

I know 3 men who are guilty of attempted murder who now have TR's and hold callings in the Church. Should I go ahead and let them know the First Presidency made a mistake. One of the guys attempted to murder his own wife. There is 60minutes expose on him. He's a good guy.

The lord has a four time rule as you may be aware wherein we are no longer required to forgive our enemy, but as to them(Laman and Lemuel) being saved I have given my thoughts about it as it would apply to them above.

You have intentionally ignored his second account.

No I just couldn't find it quickly and didn't think it necessary to express my personal view. I am not trying to win a debate or prove anything here from the scriptures, just offering my perspective on it.

His torment was because he "remembered" all his sins. He was "racked" with pain and torment because he was "harrowed up by the MEMORY" of his many sins. God didn't cause this suffering, Alma did just fine by himself feeling sufficiently guilty just by remembering his sins.

If you are suggesting that had he simply chosen to focus and think on something else that he would not have suffered I will again respectfully disagree.

Here is the prayer that is conflated with the word "thought" - probably has something to do with the evolved reformed eqyptian language I suspect.

I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

I've prayed all day too, simply by having a prayer in my heart. Kind of like the way we "Always remember him". Elder Eyring has written extensively on this topic.

And President Gordon B. Hinckley talked about the Enos type of prayer on one's knees as well. There are different kinds of prayers and differing degrees of the same. Which type did Spencer Kimball use to receive the revelation about blacks receiving the priesthood? Which kind did the Savior use all night before selecting his apostles?

There was a kid in our ward who had a stutter from birth. He couldn't get through a sentence without stuttering and refused to give talks in the ward etc. When he approached missionary age he did not want to go on a mission because of his embarrassment about it. But he did leave and came back after two years and I noticed the stutter was gone. Then as I remembered the problem he had had I asked him about it. This is his account.

He said that his mother secluded herself in a room and prayed to the Lord over the matter without ceasing for from one to two weeks until the Lord heard and answered her prayer and removed his problem. It had occurred "instantly" and took place before his leaving on his mission. I just hadn't noticed.

That's a cop out in my opinion. The process is the same for all of us, if we will but accept the process.

Agreed(2nd sentence not the first), but it is more or less difficult depending on where we are coming from IMHO..

Not interested in a heated argument here, please. Just sharing my POV

If you wish to disagree, fine.

[Lamanite]

...

So let me break it down to something a little less convoluted.

Lets say I tell my wife I'm going to the gym and then I really go to my buddy's house to play poker for money. When I come home, she asks about the gym and I say it was just fine, and then go to sleep.

How does one repent?

Big UP!

Lamanite

[shalamabobbi]

By confessing the truth to one's wife and the Lord.

By asking for their forgiveness.

By making the commitment not to play poker again and keeping that commitment

By making restitution if he won the game returning the money won to the other player

By confessing to the poker buddy that gambling is wrong and apologizing for participating and motivating him to abandon the practice.

By forgiving the other player for his influence upon him to play in the first place if appropriate to the situation..

By rededicating oneself to keeping all of the commandments of the Lord and enduring to the end..

And if you slip up, pick yourself up and start again..

This is an interesting example. I was the sole convert from my family at a young age. My brother was fellowshipped by the other young men in the ward. They did this by getting together to play poker from time to time. While they established a friendship with my brother he was never converted to the truth. I recounted this tale to a bishop later in life and his face turned red with embarrassment.

[Lamanite]

By confessing the truth to one's wife and the Lord.

By asking for their forgiveness.

By making the commitment not to play poker again and keeping that commitment

By making restitution if he won the game returning the money won to the other player

By confessing to the poker buddy that gambling is wrong and apologizing for participating and motivating him to abandon the practice.

By forgiving the other player for his influence upon him to play in the first place if appropriate to the situation..

By rededicating oneself to keeping all of the commandments of the Lord and enduring to the end..

And if you slip up, pick yourself up and start again..

This is an interesting example. I was the sole convert from my family at a young age. My brother was fellowshipped by the other young men in the ward. They did this by getting together to play poker from time to time. While they established a friendship with my brother he was never converted to the truth. I recounted this tale to a bishop later in life and his face turned red with embarrassment.

I think everything you said is true and correct, and good in the sight of God.

The only problem I have is that scripturally, forgiveness from God can come before everything else you noted.

An individual may "confess" to God that Jesus is the Christ, and that he/she is willing to accept His Atoning sacrifice. Then I think as a result of that forgiveness and conversion, one would be motivated to make amends and continue in the conversion process.

Agree/Disagree?

Big UP!

Lamanite

PS that's too bad about your brother.

[shalamabobbi]

The only problem I have is that scripturally, forgiveness from God can come before everything else you noted.

An individual may "confess" to God that Jesus is the Christ, and that he/she is willing to accept His Atoning sacrifice. Then I think as a result of that forgiveness and conversion, one would be motivated to make amends and continue in the conversion process.

Agree/Disagree?

1st principal, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ

2nd repentance

3rd baptism

4rth Holy Ghost

So I agree. But how does one come to recognize the need for the atonement?

The pain and suffering from sin direct us in that direction.

Suffering for sin instructs us to avoid it in the future. If there were absolutely no suffering for anything we did, we would all enjoy peace of conscience all the time regardless of our deeds. What peace would Jesus have to offer us then?

[ldsquest]

The pain and suffering from sin direct us in that direction.

Is this the way it happened for Adam and Eve when they sinned in the

Garden of Eden?

Regards,

Pete

[Lamanite]

1st principal, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ

2nd repentance

3rd baptism

4rth Holy Ghost

So I agree. But how does one come to recognize the need for the atonement?

The pain and suffering from sin direct us in that direction.

Suffering for sin instructs us to avoid it in the future. If there were absolutely no suffering for anything we did, we would all enjoy peace of conscience all the time regardless of our deeds. What peace would Jesus have to offer us then?

It was that exact type of suffering that led me on my spiritual search. I could not verbalize it then, but I needed to feel peace of conscience. My guilt and its associated suffering ended when I asked God to forgive me based solely on the merits of Jesus Christ.

Then I would make amends when necessary.

You last two sentences make perfect sense.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[shalamabobbi]

Is this the way it happened for Adam and Eve when they sinned in the

Garden of Eden?

They didn't know right from wrong when they 'sinned'. Therefore it wasn't really a 'sin' but a law was broken to bring upon us a mortal probation.

But I see what you are getting at.

Sin causes us to hide from God, others, and even ourselves in denial at times.

But I am referring to the pain that sin causes to our conscience at times when we are left to ponder. We feel the need for peace, a way to get rid of the guilt. This prepares us to seek for God when we find sin has left us empty.

[coolrok7]

[LOAP]

Coolrok: none of those things would mean anything without the atonement of Christ.

Agreed.

Without the Atoning Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, you could get baptized by President Monson till you were wrinkled and it would avail you nothing. Same goes for every other ordinance or act of obedience and righteousness we perform; without Him there is no salvational value.

Big UP!

Lamanite

I agree LOAP/Lamanite but Mormonism distorts what that means as illustrated in the quote from the, â??What the Mormons think of Christâ? pamphlet concerning the blood of Jesus (which you and other Mormons I talk with seem to have ignored).

This is the biggest slap in Jesusâ?? face that one can make (Rather than focusing on worshipping God, Mormonism teaches that an individuals focus is on making oneselfself a god in Mormon [partly borrowed Masonic] temple ritual just like He did which will make those who become gods worshipped in their own world like "Heavenly Father" is in his):

Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose oneâ??s salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean. (pp.19-20)

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:8-9)

That is an awful statement to make in light of Jesusâ?? blood being the basis for the atonement made for all of our sin. Which includes past, present, and future sins we commit (which doesnâ??t mean it is a license to sin):

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:7-10)

The reason for bringing this up (again) is based on the false charges of Elder Bruce R. McConkie given at a BYU Devotional in 1984 (which was the same year a Mormon friend of mine back in Tulsa, Oklahoma gave me a copy of the, â??A Marvelous Work and a Wonderâ? by LeGrand Richards), in which he brings against Protestantism as stated here:

I wonder how many of us are aware of one of the great religious phenomenon of the ages, one that is now sweeping through Protestant Christianity, as only one other thing has ever done in the whole Christian Era. . . .let me first identify the original heresy that did more than anything else to destroy primitive Christianity.

This first and chief heresy of a now fallen and decadent Christianity- and truly it is the father of all heresies-. . .pertains now to the nature and kind of being that God is. . . .a spirit essence called the Trinity. . . .The adoption of this false doctrine about God effectively destroyed true worship among men and ushered in the age of universal apostasy. . . .

This second heresy-and it is the prevailing delusion and mania that prevails to this day in the great evangelical body of Protestantism-is the doctrine that we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law. . . .It is the doctrine that we may be born again simply by confessing the Lord Jesus with our lips while we continue to live in our sins.

The last line as stated above is a common misperception/misrepresentation of the Protestant understanding of â??salvation by graceâ? (this is not what Lutheran Christians teach concerning the subject of Justification and Sanctification)

Our understanding of â??faith aloneâ? is in the context of the â??blood of Jesusâ? that actually does â??the savingâ? â??cleanses us from all sinâ? as the basis for salvation in contrast to â??worksâ?. The idea of â??worksâ? in Jamesâ?? context is that works are a product of having a faith that enables one to be saved:

What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, â??Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,â? and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, â??You have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:14-18)

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phillipians 2:7-13)

For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:10-18)

Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (Hebrews 9:1-15)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Here is the above verse modified to reflect Mormon theology:

For by grace are you resurrected [have salvation] through Jesus Christ, even murderers, which is not by faith; and not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not by works lest any man should boast, except for [*] Joseph Smith. But the reward of the highest eternal opportunities, or in other words exaltation in the celestial kingdom, you must work for/earn or merit for yourself, which is by faith. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them.

[*] Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. . .When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. (History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp.408, 409)

And thus one becomes an Elohim to their posterity on another planet, just like Heavenly Father and His wife or wives have done for us; like all the gods have done before. Except for those who receive of the lesser glories, which are the terrestrial and telestial, who are dammed from further progression. And those who are the sons of perdition, even apostates, these will go into outer darkness. Eternal punishment is Godâ??s punishment; everlasting punishment is Godâ??s punishment. In other words, it is the name of the punishment God inflicts, he being eternal in his nature. Whosoever, therefore, receives Godâ??s punishment, whether it is endured one hour, one day, one week, one year, or an age. . . .or â??in other wordsâ? eternal is not forever. (From a compilation of LDS pamphlets)

I attended a Mormon chapel this past Sunday (Anaheim 1st) with some missionaries Iâ??ve been talking with through a mutual friend for about the last month. The emphasis of the lesson in the â??priesthoodâ? meeting was on Joseph Smith and â??Zionâ??s campâ?, not Jesus although he was mentioned in passing.

During the talks given by members there was a young man who was speaking about Christmas. One of the statements he made was about â??eternal lifeâ? being â??a giftâ?. The comment really stood out to me as that was one of the points of discussion with the missionaries that my friend had made with them in previous conversations.

In Galatians Paul makes the following point (which is where Mormonism misses the boat):

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Galatians 2:16 21)

One frustrates the grace of Christ by trying to earn, merit, or work for salvation (Paul says to â??work outâ? salvation not â??work forâ? salvation) trying to gain what Mormons identify as Exaltation (godhood) in â??Mormonismâ? which is not â??Christianityâ?. Salvation becomes only resurrection in Mormonism, â??eternal lifeâ? is merited:

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23)

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

Salvation in the Biblical context is to be saved from â??eternal punishmentâ? in hell as described by Jesus in the book of Matthew:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, â??Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.â?? â??Then they also will answer Him, saying, â??Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?â?? Then He will answer them, saying, â??Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.â?? And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.â? (Matthew 25:41-46)

This is not to say that individual Mormons canâ??t be Christian in their faith but the system of Mormonism derived by Joseph Smith cannot exalt anyone but bring them down to hell (everlasting fire) as Satan is the author of that system of belief (false religion) which was â??prepared for the devil and his angelsâ? and anyone who believes his lies:

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, . . .In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. (1Timothy 4:1 2, 6)

John writes (Scripture) the following as a word of encouragement in both his Gospel and Epistle:

â??Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.â? (John 20:30-31)

â??These things I have, written to you who believe in the, name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.â?? (1 John 5:13)

I do not say these things with any animosity toward you or anyone else here but is being directed toward false doctrine I believe is being taught in Jesusâ?? name.

[Lamanite]

...

I may be a weird Mormon, but I meant what I wrote. You're pamphlet does not convince me one way or another. Pamphlets are not necessarily doctrine.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[LifeOnaPlate]

coolrok: stop trying to tell me what I believe. Much thanks.

[shalamabobbi]

Salvation becomes only resurrection in Mormonism, â??eternal lifeâ? is merited:

Salvation is to be saved in the celestial, terrestrial, or telestial glories in Mormonism.

Outer darkness for sons of perdition is to not be saved.

The resurrection is the resurrection and is what is referred to in the verse "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" This also has reference to the first spiritual death, ie to be cast out of the garden or out of God's presence. The resurrection of Christ counters both of those deaths, that of the physical body and that of being out of God's presence, so we are brought back into His presence to be judged according to our works whether they be good or evil.

Those who are cast out eternally suffer the second (spiritual) death, they retain their physical resurrected body however.

There is a resurrection of the just and of the unjust, that of the just being referred to as the morning of the resurrection.

reference

I am willing to answer any other points if you have an interest. First however you need to distinguish between the law of Moses and the law of the gospel, between circumcision and the sermon on the mount. We need to be on the same page as to what Jesus saved us from before the atonement can be discussed intelligently.

[coolrok7]

I may be a weird Mormon, but I meant what I wrote. You're pamphlet does not convince me one way or another. Pamphlets are not necessarily doctrine.

Big UP!

Lamanite

Lamanite, it is the Mormon Churches own "official" prosyltizing pamphlets that I quote from to demonstrate what Mormon teacing/doctrine actually is. Try reading for understanding instead of ignoring your own Churches misrepresentation of what I truly believe:

As always, there are self-appointed spokesman who scoff at what we believe and misrepresent what we teach. (The Ensign, Elder Boyd K. Packer, Nov. 1984, p.66)

But at the LDS Churchâ??s General Conference in October 1983, Elder Gordon B. Hinckley of the churchâ??s ruling First Presidency lashed out at those â??who have taken upon themselves as their mission to belittle and demean and destroy the faith of the weak, with a badly flawed argument that we are not Christians.â? (Newsweek, March 4, 1985, p.65)

I was handed a tract the other day. It was written by a critic, an enemy of the Church whose desire is to undermine the faith of the weak and the unknowing. It repeats fallacies that have been parroted for a century and more. It purports to set forth what you and I, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, believe. (The Ensign, President Gordon B. Hinckley, Nov. 1986, p.49)

I'm sure you don't like it any more than I do when what you personally believe is misrepresented and is not what you actually believe.

Im interacting with what the Mormon Church teaches (as well as the individuals that make the comments here that they do) in it's own literature that has been provided to me over the years that I've been studying with Mormons in their own teaching on their own turf.

I'm not here to tell you personally what you believe. Ask you leaders not to do that to what my Church actually teaches. Try reading again my post and see I was dealing specifically with what "Mormonism" teaches.

[coolrok7]

coolrok: stop trying to tell me what I believe. Much thanks.

Reread my post, I wasn't telling you what you believe. I was quoting from "Mormonism" itself:

THE DIVINE MISSION OF JOSEPH SMITH

CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH

Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an imposter cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures. (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.188, 1954 edition)

[LifeOnaPlate]

Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.188, 1954 edition etc.

Unofficial and opinionated. Sorry, coolrok. Again, you seem to labor under the impression that this old book somehow explains what I as a Mormon must believe. That is mistaken.

[coolrok7]

Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.188, 1954 edition etc.

Unofficial and opinionated. Sorry, coolrok. Again, you seem to labor under the impression that this old book somehow explains what I as a Mormon must believe. That is mistaken.

I didn't inclde this quote to say that you had to believe it. This quote is directed by a Mormon General Authority as a challenge (the part I quoted) to those who are not Mormon where he is explaing what Mormonism teaches. It is to the rest of the thread where I did quote from "official" Mormon teaching/doctrine. Try dealing honestly with what I quoted and quit telling me that I'm "telling you what you believe".

[LifeOnaPlate]

Why try to talk to you about an unofficial opinion of a general authority which led you to conclude that "Mormons" (no qualifications) believe such-and-such? I see no good reason.

[coolrok7]

Why try to talk to you about an unofficial opinion of a general authority which led you to conclude that "Mormons" (no qualifications) believe such-and-such? I see no good reason.

You apparently didn't read what I just posted before this remark. I think you need to read before you say anything else. I didn't tell you it was for Mormons per say although it was his version of answering questions to the issue of salvation from a Mormon General Authority's perspective on what it is Mormons teach/believe.

The last time I checked, I don't see where you speak officialy for the Mormon Church which is what I was interacting with.

[Tanyan]

Coolrok your back !!!, how is your Pistis ?. You just motivated me to pull my Anti-Martin Luther Files/Material from my files and go to various non LDS Web sites that respond to his teachings. .

Splinters and Beams and Stone's to you !.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Merry Christmas.

[coolrok7]

You apparently didn't read what I just posted before this remark. I think you need to read before you say anything else. I didn't tell you it was for Mormons per say although it was his version of answering questions to the issue of salvation from a Mormon General Authority's perspective on what it is Mormons teach/believe.

The last time I checked, I don't see where you speak officialy for the Mormon Church which is what I was interacting with.

I should have included this:

Dear Brother England: This may well be the most important letter you have or will receive (p.1). . . .It is not in your province to set in order the Church or to determine what its doctrines shall be. . . .This means, among other things, that it is my province to teach to the Church what the doctrine is. You do not have a divine commission to correct me or any of the Brethren. The Lord does not operate that way. If I lead the Church astray, that is my responsibility, but the fact remains that I am the one appointed with all the rest involved so to do. The appointment is not given to the faculty at Brigham Young University or to any of the members of the Church. . . .And those at (p.the head of the Church have the obligation to teach that which is in harmony with the Standard Works (p.9). . . .â?

[Lamanite]

I should have included this:

Notice it was their "obligation to teach that which is in harmony with the Standard Works". So bring all the good you have, and if it can be reconciled with the Standard works, then I will accept it. If not, your pamphlets and talks and dissertations and journals and whatever else you may come across, will remain a well considered opinion, but an opinion nonetheless.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[LifeOnaPlate]

It is their obligation, coolrok. They don't always fulfill this obligation because they are not perfect. So again, you are fighting windmills.