Diversity In The Church

[LeSellers]

Two sides of the same coin are by definition on the opposite side. But both libertarians and communists are just as clueless about how the real world works and about human nature.

Libertarians are far from clueless about humanity.

"Opposite sides of the same coin" implies something quite different from opposties of each other.

But, as I said, you propably know little about either one.

Lehi

[talisyn]

If you believe this, you know nothing about either communism or libertarianism.

They are not of the same coin, but totally opposite; one does not complete the other.

Furthermore, I see a Godwin's Law violation here. I am not a Communist, nor is any other libertarian.

Lehi

I thought Godwin's Law applies only to references of nazis? ooops...

[semlogo]

Libertarians are far from clueless about humanity.

"Opposite sides of the same coin" implies something quite different from opposties of each other.

But, as I said, you propably know little about either one.

Lehi

I'm sure that conclusion is comforting.

[blueadept]

Diversity is full of epic win.

We all come from different places and backgrounds and cultural upbringings.

We are diverse.

We all unite under the gospel.

In that respect, the universal nature of the gospel unites us and binds us.

How our faith manifests though, because of our diversity?

Will come in all different shapes and forms.

And those different shapes and forms aren't deviations at all.

They are an opportunity for us to strengthen our testimony, by seeing the multi-faceted nature of faith in action.

Sometimes, I think people confuse the cultural manifestation of their faith with faith itself. I think that's where a lot of mischief comes in honestly.

And that goes for political diversity too, if that's the main point of this thread. It seems the idea that there is a one true party is very americana, because non-American Mormons tend to be somewhat confused by our tendencies within the states to fuse political affiliations with religious devotion.

As others have posted, I truly enjoyed koakaipo's post as well and I'm happy members here have experienced this diversity. This diversity though, is something I haven't experienced for myself even when I attended GC this last October and it's one of my personal issues.

My best experience that I ever attended was a contemplative Mass I attended at the LA Religious Education Congress in its diversity. It had a black priest with a Korean deacon, with Mexican altar servers and white Eucharistic dancers for the contemplative Mass. The diversity of that room who was all gathered to share in the Gospel message as well as the Eucharist was simply an awesome thing to partake in.

I unfortunately haven't had a similar LDS experience yet, but I appreciate my LDS bretheren who have experienced this.

My 2 cents

[talisyn]

As others have posted, I truly enjoyed koakaipo's post as well and I'm happy members here have experienced this diversity. This diversity though, is something I haven't experienced for myself even when I attended GC this last October and it's one of my personal issues.

My best experience that I ever attended was a contemplative Mass I attended at the LA Religious Education Congress in its diversity. It had a black priest with a Korean deacon, with Mexican altar servers and white Eucharistic dancers for the contemplative Mass. The diversity of that room who was all gathered to share in the Gospel message as well as the Eucharist was simply an awesome thing to partake in.

I unfortunately haven't had a similar LDS experience yet, but I appreciate my LDS bretheren who have experienced this.

My 2 cents

It all depends on where you live I suppose. The Church is world-wide, and this pleases me to no end. Diversity isn't only skin color though. One of our Apostles is from..umm..lol I can't find out from lds.org..hey did you know you can talk to a missionary on mormon.org? back to my thought, Dieter F. Uchtdorf is German. It's a start.

[katherine the great]

kokaipo's post immediately rises to somewhere in my favorite one or two posts of everything I've had the privilege to read in this forum during the last two years.

Profound. Poetic. Gorgeous.

Brother/Sister, whoever you are, I love your soul!

Yep! She's the man!

[MormonMason]

Debauchery in the Church?!? I must have missed that Gospel Doctrine class....Obviously I need to go to Sunday School more.

You must be fortunate enough to be in a Ward where this is not occurring. Either that, or you are oblivious to goings-on around you. Then, there is Rexburg, ID. It hasn't been called "Sexburg" for nothing....

The situation in one of my own former Wards was deplorable, complete with a Bishop who knew what was going on and did relatively nothing about it. I say "relatively" because the only times he would do anything is if he was "busted" by the Stake President or his inaction and complicity to the deeds was about to become public knowledge.

I personally know of several times that that now former Bishop repeatedly bailed a member of the Ward out of jail for drug and prostitution charges and allowed that man to attend the temple immediately afterward and during court proceedings! The man was allowed by that Bishop to bless the sacrament and baptize his stepdaughter, in spite of guilty pleas in court for the abovementioned charges and arrest records for the same.

When two of his friends were slated by the Stake Presidency for Church Discipline, he paid out of his own pocket and used Church funds to move them out of Stake Boundaries so as to keep them from the actions of the Stake President. He then kept them on the rolls of the Ward so as to continue helping them while telling the Stake President that they moved out of the Stake.

I could tell true stories about certain Wards in several states that would make your hair stand on end.

The point is that such things are on the increase in a number of places in the Church.

I realize that semlogo acts as though he does not know the meaning of the word "debauchery" but I hoped better of others...

[semlogo]

I realize that semlogo acts as though he does not know the meaning of the word "debauchery" but I hoped better of others...

I didn't help that you treated it like some big mystery. Thanks for sharing. I've never seen that in any of my wards, but I've never lived in Idaho or Utah, which I'm sure makes a difference.

You could have just said so in the first place, saved a lot of drama.

[MormonMason]

I didn't help that you treated it like some big mystery. Thanks for sharing. I've never seen that in any of my wards, but I've never lived in Idaho or Utah, which I'm sure makes a difference.

You could have just said so in the first place, saved a lot of drama.

None of the Wards I described are in Utah or Idaho. The "Sexburg" information I got from people who lived there until they couldn't take it anymore. Everything I related from personal observation were in Wards located in California and Nevada.

[annewandering]

None of the Wards I described are in Utah or Idaho. The "Sexburg" information I got from people who lived there until they couldn't take it anymore. Everything I related from personal observation were in Wards located in California and Nevada.

i have lived in idaho, utah and california and never saw anything like that. one of my kids is going to school in rexburg and the people she knows arent that way.

of course my husband grew up in rexburg and he detested it. having a dad who is the town drunk tends to bring out the bigots on a lot of mormon towns regrettably.

[MormonMason]

i have lived in idaho, utah and california and never saw anything like that. one of my kids is going to school in rexburg and the people she knows arent that way.

of course my husband grew up in rexburg and he detested it. having a dad who is the town drunk tends to bring out the bigots on a lot of mormon towns regrettably.

How blessed you are not to have witnessed such things in your Wards. Would that it were so with me. On the other hand, you just might have had Bishops who acted quickly enough not to allow such situations to gain a foothold and taint nearly the entire Ward.

I am also glad that your daughter is not hanging out with the wrong crowd. May such continue to be the case and may she not see the sorts of wickedness that abound.

[annewandering]

How blessed you are not to have witnessed such things in your Wards. Would that it were so with me. On the other hand, you just might have had Bishops who acted quickly enough not to allow such situations to gain a foothold and taint nearly the entire Ward.

I am also glad that your daughter is not hanging out with the wrong crowd. May such continue to be the case and may she not see the sorts of wickedness that abound.

oh pft there is wickedness everywhere. may she continue to look for good and live good, no matter what she sees around her.

you can find what you look for i have no doubt even if its not there.

[semlogo]

None of the Wards I described are in Utah or Idaho. The "Sexburg" information I got from people who lived there until they couldn't take it anymore. Everything I related from personal observation were in Wards located in California and Nevada.

Even worse!

[MormonMason]

oh pft there is wickedness everywhere. may she continue to look for good and live good, no matter what she sees around her.

you can find what you look for i have no doubt even if its not there.

Oh, it is there. I was placed in positions to be aware of it all from the beginning. It became so bad that it was becoming public knowledge. It was difficult to miss when several of the youth in one of the Wards were setting up websites with some very nasty filth on them, when the Bishop's son of that time was one of the ringleaders of a porn ring, which would discuss such materials during Sunday School, and when youth repeatedly would slip away into dark rooms in the building during youth activities (no need to mention what they were doing for I think those with open eyes will get the idea), when kids were propositioning other youth for homosexual sex weeek in and week out, and so forth!

One fellow I know was taken out of a calling just for going to the bathroom. Why? Because as soon as he went into the bathroom, one of the young men dropped his pants and began rubbing his genitals in some of the other youth's faces! Then, he was persecuted by the Bishop in the Ward because he stood up to him in not accepting blame for going to the bathroom and be cause he had reported to the Stake President what had happened.

It all was very real and there were a number of people, including new members, who had trusts broken and their faith shattered so badly as a result of what was going on that it is no mere happenstance that can be swept under the carpet. It is kind of hard to turn a blind eye to something so blatently known and seen week in and week out. There was no need to look for anything.

But, you can continue to drown in the coolaid and turn a blind eye to wickedness if you like. Just because you do not see it does not mean that it does not exist.

[semlogo]

Oh, it is there. I was placed in positions to be aware of it all from the beginning. It became so bad that it was becoming public knowledge. It was difficult to miss when several of the youth in one of the Wards were setting up websites with some very nasty filth on them, when the Bishop's son of that time was one of the ringleaders of a porn ring, which would discuss such materials during Sunday School, and when youth repeatedly would slip away into dark rooms in the building during youth activities (no need to mention what they were doing for I think those with open eyes will get the idea), when kids were propositioning other youth for homosexual sex weeek in and week out, and so forth!

One fellow I know was taken out of a calling just for going to the bathroom. Why? Because as soon as he went into the bathroom, one of the young men dropped his pants and began rubbing his genitals in some of the other youth's faces! Then, he was persecuted by the Bishop in the Ward because he stood up to him in not accepting blame for going to the bathroom and be cause he had reported to the Stake President what had happened.

It all was very real and there were a number of people, including new members, who had trusts broken and their faith shattered so badly as a result of what was going on that it is no mere happenstance that can be swept under the carpet. It is kind of hard to turn a blind eye to something so blatently known and seen week in and week out. There was no need to look for anything.

But, you can continue to drown in the coolaid and turn a blind eye to wickedness if you like. Just because you do not see it does not mean that it does not exist.

What did they expect, attending the Babylonian First Ward, Mother of All Harlots Stake?

[thesometimesaint]

talisyn:

From Wiki.

Godwin's Law(reductio ad Hitlerum) or Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies strictly speaking is Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact. Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,the law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently blog comment threads and wiki talk pages.

It has come to apply to anyone of notorious ill repute. IE Hitler, Stalin, Po pot.

[Mark Beesley]

You must be fortunate enough to be in a Ward where this is not occurring. Either that, or you are oblivious to goings-on around you. Then, there is Rexburg, ID. It hasn't been called "Sexburg" for nothing....

The situation in one of my own former Wards was deplorable, complete with a Bishop who knew what was going on and did relatively nothing about it. I say "relatively" because the only times he would do anything is if he was "busted" by the Stake President or his inaction and complicity to the deeds was about to become public knowledge.

I personally know of several times that that now former Bishop repeatedly bailed a member of the Ward out of jail for drug and prostitution charges and allowed that man to attend the temple immediately afterward and during court proceedings! The man was allowed by that Bishop to bless the sacrament and baptize his stepdaughter, in spite of guilty pleas in court for the abovementioned charges and arrest records for the same.

When two of his friends were slated by the Stake Presidency for Church Discipline, he paid out of his own pocket and used Church funds to move them out of Stake Boundaries so as to keep them from the actions of the Stake President. He then kept them on the rolls of the Ward so as to continue helping them while telling the Stake President that they moved out of the Stake.

I could tell true stories about certain Wards in several states that would make your hair stand on end.

The point is that such things are on the increase in a number of places in the Church.

I realize that semlogo acts as though he does not know the meaning of the word "debauchery" but I hoped better of others...

Name of the Ward and Bishop please. Some specifics so these things can be reported to Salt Lake. There is no such thing as a tattle-tale in the Priesthood. The brethren need to know what is going on. So, if ANY of this is true, please report it immediately, or give us the specifics (names, dates, places) so we can report it.

[MormonMason]

Name of the Ward and Bishop please. Some specifics so these things can be reported to Salt Lake. There is no such thing as a tattle-tale in the Priesthood. The brethren need to know what is going on. So, if ANY of this is true, please report it immediately, or give us the specifics (names, dates, places) so we can report it.

Already been done. Did I not mention the "now former Bishop" above? Yes, I did.

Since there are those there who now are in repentance, mentioning names, Ward and Stake would only go to further embarass the individuals involved as well as remove necessary anonymity from myself and others. But, as I said, reporting has already been done--years ago.

[Mark Beesley]

. . . remove necessary anonymity from myself . . .

Why do you need anonymity?

Your post made it sound like the kind of misconduct you are ascribing to some anonymous former bishop is common in the Church. "You must be fortunate enough to be in a Ward where this is not occurring." Really? So, most members are living in Wards where bishops routinely ignore Church policies and procedures. I don't think so.

"The point is that such things are on the increase in a number of places in the Church." Again, Really? I've never seen this kind of conduct from a bishop. My experience has been that bishops are very conscientious about following Church guidelines regarding discipline, especially when it comes to sexual sin. They are not the maverick types you describe. And no, I'm not just fortunate, I am willing to bet that my experience is the norm, and your's is the aberration.

Quite frankly, whatever your experiences may have been regarding bishops who may have been out of tune with the Spirit, I suggest that you keep it to yourself. This kind of public venting is certainly not what Elder Ballard had in mind when he encouraged members to use the Internet to defend the Gospel.

[MormonMason]

Why do you need anonymity?

Your post made it sound like the kind of misconduct you are ascribing to some anonymous former bishop is common in the Church. "You must be fortunate enough to be in a Ward where this is not occurring." Really? So, most members are living in Wards where bishops routinely ignore Church policies and procedures. I don't think so.

"The point is that such things are on the increase in a number of places in the Church." Again, Really? I've never seen this kind of conduct from a bishop. My experience has been that bishops are very conscientious about following Church guidelines regarding discipline, especially when it comes to sexual sin. They are not the maverick types you describe. And no, I'm not just fortunate, I am willing to bet that my experience is the norm, and your's is the aberration.

Quite frankly, whatever your experiences may have been regarding bishops who may have been out of tune with the Spirit, I suggest that you keep it to yourself. This kind of public venting is certainly not what Elder Ballard had in mind when he encouraged members to use the Internet to defend the Gospel.

As to why I need anonymity, it is none of your business. Let's just say it involves anti-Masons in the Church and leave it at that.

As to the rest, this is no mere aberration in a single Ward. I have been in a number of Wards across several state lines and I have seen the same in all of those I have been in and/or visited over the last several years. If it is aberration of one Ward, I guess that lone Ward has some pretty big boundaries!

As to defending the Church using the internet, well...no need to get into that...

[semlogo]

As to the rest, this is no mere aberration in a single Ward. I have been in a number of Wards across several state lines and I have seen the same in all of those I have been in and/or visited over the last several years. If it is aberration of one Ward, I guess that lone Ward has some pretty big boundaries!

I find that hard to believe.

[Jason]

As to the rest, this is no mere aberration in a single Ward. I have been in a number of Wards across several state lines and I have seen the same in all of those I have been in and/or visited over the last several years. If it is aberration of one Ward, I guess that lone Ward has some pretty big boundaries!

My experience is comparable in scope but with exactly the opposite result. So which of us is right?

[Mark Beesley]

MomonMason's paranoia about "anti-Masons" in the Church, and his allegations of widespread debauchery in the Church are consistent . . . with paranoid schizophrenia on so many levels. At this point I would dismiss anything he has to say about the matter without further ado.

P.S. But yeah, let him go ahead and keep a well-stocked arsenal. That makes a lot of sense.

[annewandering]

ouch!

[MormonMason]

I find that hard to believe.

So? In judgment day, the secret acts of men shall be revealed upon the housetops, etc....

My experience is comparable in scope but with exactly the opposite result. So which of us is right?

Obviously, you haven't been in the same Wards as I have, so the correct answer is that both of us are right--within our perspective spheres.