Diversity In The Church

[semlogo]

So? In judgment day, the secret acts of men shall be revealed upon the housetops, etc....

True. But you just happened to attend all the bad wards? Seems unlikely.

[MormonMason]

MomonMason's paranoia about "anti-Masons" in the Church, and his allegations of widespread debauchery in the Church are consistent . . . with paranoid schizophrenia on so many levels. At this point I would dismiss anything he has to say about the matter without further ado.

P.S. But yeah, let him go ahead and keep a well-stocked arsenal. That makes a lot of sense.

"Fools mock, but they shall mourn." I suppose you know where that is from.

Fact is, had I not experienced what I have, I likely would have had similar reservations as you do. I suppose we should wait until judgment day to know the real scope of the problem. Have not you read about the wheat and the tares growing together? Hmmm...must not have paid too much attention in Sunday. Either that or you think that it does not apply to the entire Church in greater or lesser degree.

And, as to the matter of so-called paranoia, it is true that there are anti-Masons in the Church. I have had the displeasure of having met some of them. In addition, one can recognize them by what they say about Masons and what they do when they find Masons in their midst. I have heard them speak their nonsense over the pulpits of some Wards. I have experienced what they have done when they start spreading rumors about me worshipping lucifer because I am a Mason. I have had property vandalized by them in Church parking lots. I know others who have experienced the same.

I know a Mason who sits on the High Council in one Stake. He has not revealed his Masonic affiliation because of people in his Ward. I know him as a Mason because I once visited his Lodge and saw him there. But, he asked me not to reveal to anyone in his Ward that he is a Mason. I have kept that promise. I also happened to have visited that Ward and fully came to understand in Priesthood Meeting why he did not want his affilation known.

In one Ward my family experienced the loneliness of a Ward turned against us by people like that. Just because you have not met an anti-Mason in your Ward does not mean that they do not exist elsewhere. My family are witnesses and we will be testifying at judgment day against all those who have falsely maligned us. I suppose that is when you will learn not to speak prematurely of things of which you know not.

[MormonMason]

True. But you just happened to attend all the bad wards? Seems unlikely.

No, I know for a fact that I have not attended all the bad Wards out there, your hyperbolic imagination and glorying in wickedness notwithstanding. I actually have attended a few good ones. They were welcome relief. The one I am in now is not so bad but it certainly could be better than it is.

[semlogo]

No, I know for a fact that I have not attended all the bad Wards out there, your hyperbolic imagination and glorying in wickedness notwithstanding. I actually have attended a few good ones. They were welcome relief. The one I am in now is not so bad but it certainly could be better than it is.

I glory in wickedness now? That's quite the accusation. Very classy.

[MormonMason]

I glory in wickedness now? That's quite the accusation. Very classy.

Oh, so you were joking around when you made certain comments about certain things in other threads? Ok.

[semlogo]

Oh, so you were joking around when you made certain comments about certain things in other threads? Ok.

Insinuation is slimey. If you're going to defame my character, do it openly and just say what you mean.

[MormonMason]

Insinuation is slimey. If you're going to defame my character, do it openly and just say what you mean.

[semlogo]

If you're going to attack people, at least have the courage to let them know what you're attacking them for.

"Certain comments about certain things." Clear as crystal.

[MormonMason]

If you're going to attack people, at least have the courage to let them know what you're attacking them for.

"Certain comments about certain things." Clear as crystal.

[semlogo]

Okay then. If you don't have the courage to swing your bat, maybe you shouldn't step up to the plate in the first place. Just a thought.

[Anijen]

MomonMason's paranoia about "anti-Masons" in the Church, and his allegations of widespread debauchery in the Church are consistent . . . with paranoid schizophrenia on so many levels. At this point I would dismiss anything he has to say about the matter without further ado.

P.S. But yeah, let him go ahead and keep a well-stocked arsenal. That makes a lot of sense.

Hi Mark.

I just want to say in defense of Mormonmason that from reading almost every single post he has written in the last year or more. I find him incredibly brilliant and I tend to side with him. You can mock his arsenal but he (or one like him) will be very useful if not needed in some future time, and I don't think that is paranoia but a reality based on being prepared (able to hunt for your food) and self defense. I can only imagine how huge cities would react if there were an emergency of such magnitude. What would you do if you lived in New York City and had no access to food because the trucks stopped running and all the food was gone? How would you react when criminals decided you have a food storage and then targeted you? I mean I don't mean to sound mean but to laugh at mormonmasons and dismiss his posts and label him as a "paranoid schizophrenia on so many levels" is well, just wrong.

Charity

Anijen

[Mark Beesley]

I just want to say in defense of Mormonmason that from reading almost every single post he has written in the last year or more . . .

That fact alone, that you spend that kind of time on this Board, does not fill me with hope about what you are about to say.

. . . I find him incredibly brilliant . . .

Being paranoid schizophrenic and being brilliant are not mutually exclusive. Ever seen A Beautiful Mind?

. . . and I tend to side with him.

So?

You can mock his arsenal but he (or one like him) will be very useful if not needed in some future time, and I don't think that is paranoia but a reality based on being prepared (able to hunt for your food) and self defense. I can only imagine how huge cities would react if there were an emergency of such magnitude. What would you do if you lived in New York City and had no access to food because the trucks stopped running and all the food was gone? How would you react when criminals decided you have a food storage and then targeted you?

I'd share.

I mean I don't mean to sound mean but to laugh at mormonmasons and dismiss his posts and label him as a "paranoid schizophrenia on so many levels" is well, just wrong.

I wasn't laughing. I was dead serious.

[MormonMason]

Okay then. If you don't have the courage to swing your bat, maybe you shouldn't step up to the plate in the first place. Just a thought.

They are your posts! Why should I have to go out and drag up your old posts?

[MormonMason]

...

I wasn't laughing. I was dead serious.

I know you are. You are also a fool. For the record, I tried having myself diagnosed with something--anything!--in order to have an excuse to deny faith in the revelations and vision I have had over the years at a time when my own faith was on trial. I have been studied, poked and prodded, CT scanned, CAT scanned, MRI scanned and the like. All normal...no chemical imbalances, nada...

But, believe and/or disbelieve whatever you wish. And, by all means continue on the path you walk...God shall judge between me and you. Count on it.

[annewandering]

I know you are. You are also a fool. For the record, I tried having myself diagnosed with something--anything!--in order to have an excuse to deny faith in the revelations and vision I have had over the years at a time when my own faith was on trial. I have been studied, poked and prodded, CT scanned, CAT scanned, MRI scanned and the like. All normal...no chemical imbalances, nada...

But, believe and/or disbelieve whatever you wish. And, by all means continue on the path you walk...God shall judge between me and you. Count on it.

if a person is paranoid schizophrenic it doesnt mean they are automatically wrong. all the nuke bomb stuff was a little scary although no one person was alone in all that. i think having guns to be prepared isnt that bad of an idea. some people tend to get a little too 'excited' about the prospect though. guns are a tool period.

i keep having the urge to tell you two to take a corner until you can play nice. maybe i had too many kids?

[zerinus]

You don't need liberal leanings to oppose Prop. 8.

That is beside the point though.

But you do need to be in opposition to the Church on the issue in order to do so. Hence, as Lightbearer points out, there is not much room for the worldly definition of diversity.

Agreed.

that would be true if it were doctrine when they asked for support for it. as it was they asked for support and that is all.

The Church's support for Prop 8 is published by the Church itself, therefore, it is doctrine by it's own definition of doctrine.

That does not make sense from either side. A â??letterâ? can neither be â??doctrine,â? nor can it be â??not doctrineâ?. A letter can either be consistent with Church doctrine, or not be consistent with it. It can either conform to and agree with the Churchâ??s commonly held beliefs, teachings, position, and practices, or not do so. As it happens, I believe it is consistent with churchâ??s commonly held beliefs and teachings. That is the angle from which it can be logically discussed.

In your opinion, was the Church's support for Prop 8 inspired by God or not?

That is also a valid question to ask, and an angle from which it can be discussed.

find me a reference to that because it is my understanding that is completely not true.

What is â??not trueâ?? the letter originated from the top leadership of the Church, therefore it reflects the official position of the Church with respect to the subject. That is official and inspired, as far as Latter-day Saints are concerned.

so do you have a reference that says the letters asking for support in california are doctrine?

A nonsensical question. See above.

zerinus

[zerinus]

everything in the Proclamation is doctrine and was long before the proclamation was written as far as i know.

how does this make the request for support of prop 8 doctrine? there are other views on how prop 8 affects us. even in good members of the church. i support it but do not see it as a commandment.

i am sorry but i think we are misunderstanding each other. i have no doubts about the marriage issue. and i support the efforts to keep the traditional definition of marriage.

some people in the church, good members, may well disagree about prop 8 while still agreeing with the doctrine of marriage. they may be wrong. in fact i think they are. that doesnt mean they are going against doctrine. it means they are going against prop 8.

i am not going to defend them except to say we are not robots. we have free agency to decide for ourselves if doctrine applies to a particular circumstance. clearly they feel it doesnt in this case.

one thing about it is it has helped us to solidify our own views on the subject. opposition has a tendency to make a person think and thinking is a good thing.

You seem to be confused in your mind about the meaning of â??doctrine,â? â??commandment,â? or what is neither! See my previous post. A letter from the First Presidency giving instructions to Church members to do certain things (or not do certain things) is neither â??doctrineâ? nor â??not doctrineâ?. It can only be said to conform to the Churchâ??s doctrinal position, or not do so. It can, however, be a commandment. That will depend on how you want to look at it. Nobody is going to be disciplined in the Church for going against Prop. 8. But you wonâ??t get disciplined for not paying tithing, or not obeying the Word of Wisdom either. But you will lose blessings if you donâ??t. Sometimes the Lord chooses to give us a counsel rather commandment, because a commandment if disobeyed can bring one under greater condemnation. On a controversial issue like Prop. 8, you are entirely free to disagree with the Churchâ??s stance on thatâ??and in theory, you may even do so with justification. But you had better be pretty darned sure that you are right, or you will lose the Lordâ??s blessings by being out of harmony with the mind and will of God that He has revealed thought the leadership of the Church. I wouldnâ??t bet on it that you are.

zerinus

[MormonMason]

if a person is paranoid schizophrenic it doesnt mean they are automatically wrong.

I agree. However, I know for a fact that I am not in that category. Believe me when I say I tried to put myself in that category. I received a revelation and misunderstood its intent and meaning. Something that occurred caused me to absolutely have reason to doubt the revelation I had received. At one point I wanted to leave the Church. I tried to convince myself that something had to be wrong with me and so stated so to my wife.

I figured that if I had some sort of mental issue I might be able to discard all revelations and visions, and even discard my testimony which was based on revelation. My wife was incensed that I would think that way. I earned her ire all the more when I embarked on my mission to find something wrong with me. She knew that if I found something I would leave the Church as I had made that intent known vocally in my home. I felt I had little to lose.

Our Bishop had taken away our home teacher and tried to do the same with my wife's visiting teacher. He had called a meeting to warn a number of members to avoid us. My wife's visiting teacher refused to back down and stated her intention to continue visiting my wife. At that point, this so-called bishop then warned her that if she did come over she should not stay long and if possible, not to enter the house, because "brother [MormonMason] is into some very bad things." Many people stopped associating with us after that meeting. I became aware of it from a couple people who attended that meeting and felt it was not right for the Bishop to do that. So, they informed me of the details.

This was something, I came to find out, that was started by a known anti-Mason in the Ward. He convinced the so-called bishop that I was worshiping Lucifer and so forth, and he never so much as asked me anything. He just pulled all support out from under us. I knew he was an anti-Mason because of remarks he had made in Priesthood Meeting and because I one day overheard him spouting off anti-Masonic nonsense to someone in the hall and made the comment that people like me should not be allowed to be members of the Church. I quickly put an end to that nonsense and put him in his place. But, it did not stop there. He was good friends with the so-called bishop there and convinced him to do with us as he had. When I stopped attending the Ward this same man called me on the phone, berated me and then proceeded to tell me that he was glad that I was not there and that he hoped I never came back. His wife then got on the phone and yelled "there is only one apron I'll ever wear!" Yeah, tell me that these people were not anti-Masons!

Later, these same people threatened to kill us all. I could have put them down but then what would I have faced? At any rate, after all this (and this is only a fraction of the detail I could give) I wondered whether I was crazy and a mental illness seemed the perfect excuse to leave the Church as I could chalk up all my revelations and visions to mental illness and be done with it all. After all the expensive tests, and repeated fights with my wife over what I was doing for months, I was found to have nothing wrong with me. There went my excuse, right out the window!

I am saddened by the outcome of my vocal outbursts about non-belief at the time because it had a negative outcome on my eldest son, who now does not fully believe in anything. But, as I said in another place, I came to find out that, unbeknownst to me at the time, the revelation had been fulfilled to the letter. I found out later and was left further without excuse.

But, it changes nothing about how I felt and what I and several families experienced in one of several miserable Wards I have been in over my decades in the Church. I know the truth of what I saw and experienced regardless of the denials of the "all's well in Zion" crowd.

all the nuke bomb stuff was a little scary although no one person was alone in all that.

That is exactly why I will never share what I know on the subject with anyone. I do not need some fool messing with something he knows nothing about and hurting many innocent people. Fact is, though, I do know how to build one. I even know how to make various enhancements and modifications.

I can modify an H-bomb into a neutron bomb as well. All one has to do is replace the fissile material with a certain something else, which I will not describe or discuss further. Anyone with the correct knowledge can do it.

But, again, I have no plans to build any of these weapons unless I have no other options. They are absolutely a last resort. Personally, I do not see it likely that I ever will build one of those accursed things. You have nothing to be frightened about. But, I am glad that you acknowledged that I was not the only one talking about such things.

i think having guns to be prepared isnt that bad of an idea. some people tend to get a little too 'excited' about the prospect though. guns are a tool period.

I agree with you exactly. But, this thread is already wandering off topic since semlogo took it off course with his comment about refusal to own guns being a form of debauchery in my view. Nothing is further from the truth. Then, I posted examples of what I have seen that would classify as debauchery. Next thing I know, I am being attacked from a couple sides with the bulk of the venom spilled over by mbeesley.

I am glad that Anijen came to my defense. I am grateful that at least one person came to my defense. One thing I can count on from many Latter-day Saints is that, based on my experiences in the Church all these years, I can expect to be stabbed to the heart right through the back by fellow "latter-day saints." This is why even in our current Ward we go to our meetings and then get out as quickly as we can. We associate with few people in the Ward as a result of our long-time experiences. Anijen's actions kept me from generalizing about everyone here and simply leaving the board quietly into the night.

i keep having the urge to tell you two to take a corner until you can play nice. maybe i had too many kids?

I know how that is. I have had several children myself--well, actually, my wife had them, I just helped raise them.

[Mark Beesley]

I rest my case.

[semlogo]

They are your posts! Why should I have to go out and drag up your old posts?

Are you still talking? Swing your bat or get off the plate. I have 256 posts. You provided NO clue as to which makes me an evil person. You're trolling or just don't have the courage to back up your insult. Either way, put up or shut up.

[semlogo]

I can modify an H-bomb into a neutron bomb as well. All one has to do is replace the fissile material with a certain something else, which I will not describe or discuss further. Anyone with the correct knowledge can do it.

But, again, I have no plans to build any of these weapons unless I have no other options. They are absolutely a last resort. Personally, I do not see it likely that I ever will build one of those accursed things. You have nothing to be frightened about. But, I am glad that you acknowledged that I was not the only one talking about such things.

I agree with you exactly. But, this thread is already wandering off topic since semlogo took it off course with his comment about refusal to own guns being a form of debauchery in my view. Nothing is further from the truth. Then, I posted examples of what I have seen that would classify as debauchery. Next thing I know, I am being attacked from a couple sides with the bulk of the venom spilled over by mbeesley.

No offense, but get some help. See a psychologist. You are obviously not well. Mental illness is no one's fault - no more than having diabetes or cancer. But you clearly have problems. I take no offense to your previous insult, because clearly you are not well mentally.

[semlogo]

MormonMason,

I've also put you on ignore. I don't want to be tempted to spar with you the next time you randomly insult me or even when you put forth a bizarre opinion - I can be argumentative I know. Please get help before you hurt yourself or others. Best of luck and I wish you well.

[annewandering]

thank you for your explanation. i am sad that this kind of thing can happen. i do know that people in callings are people. people make mistakes. my gosh we went through a bizaare one ourselves.

a friend of the bishop long time ago told him that my husband was meeting a woman while he was waiitng to get a load of seed potatoes. he was supposed to have been having some kind of affaire with her. well the bishop would sit on the stand alternately glaring at my husband and looking pityingly at me. the bishop would call him in to chat and kept asking if he didnt have something he wanted to confess.

we just could not understand it. years later we found out his friend, who was my husbands boss was excommunicated for adultry. but in the midst of it he was 'diverting' attention to my husband who was meeting a woman.

lol and he was. she was his niece who lived in that area who he had not seen for 16 years but was close to. she brought her kids to met him and they would chat. his coworker asked who she was and he told him that she was his niece. he assumed thaat was a euphamism for a girlfriend. he even got fired over it. but no one would ever say what was going on. they just make up stuff that didnt make sense.

it helps a lot to be honest. not think things about people without finding out the truth.

and in the end realize people make mistakes. sometimes whoppers.

[MormonMason]

I rest my case.

You have no case. Were you a psychologist/psychiatrist diagnosing patients from internet postings you could land yourself in the land of lawsuits were your methodology known.

[MormonMason]

Are you still talking? Swing your bat or get off the plate. I have 256 posts. You provided NO clue as to which makes me an evil person. You're trolling or just don't have the courage to back up your insult. Either way, put up or shut up.

I know you are ignoring this but I'll still post it anyway. I never said you were an evil person. I merely took some posts from you I had read in a certain way, and things you said afterward made me wonder, especially in things like you saying you wanted to be gay and hoped that you could be turned that way, even hoping that you would get a pizza stuffed with homosexual goodness, etc. You set yourself up for that one, not me.

Well, here is one of your posts (bold emphasis mine)--not that really was obligated to hunt down your posts like this--but do not expect me to dig up the other ones for you.

Count me in. If cheese, chicken, beef and tomatoes will turn me gay, I don't want to be straight. I imagine the quickest way to turn gay would be to eat a lot of pizza. Mmm, pizza. Delicious cheesy homosexuality in every slice!

Of course, then your protest to my comment about glorying in wickedness led me to believe that you were joking. But...

Anyway, ignore away! I actually prefer it that way.