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The Shiftless, Lazy, Lying Smith Family


Daniel Peterson

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You apparently don't know very much about my work. I am not a counter-cult anything. Unlike true counter-cult folks, I don't write exclusively on cults, nor in the case of some, only write on one particular group. So, please, do a little research. TY.

Hey, it's your wiki entry...

He is an award-winning author/journalist specializing in the area of cults, the occult, world religions, pop culture, and the entertainment industry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Abanes

I can understand you protecting the christian children from the insidious evils of Harry Potter, however it also says you think The Lord of the Rings is of the devil - which I must protest against.

(points at avatar)

Anyway, please continue protecting Christians from crystal balls, magic wands, fairies and goblins.

It seems to have worked out well for you.

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Im with the good Dr. I would choose the God of all... not just the God of a single human tribe.

Awesome!!! That's the one I chose.

In the Old Testament, he's called the One True God (Jer. 10:10; also see James 2:19). In the New Testament he's called The Unknown God, per the Greeks: "People of Athens, I see that you are in every respect religiously exact. For as I walked about and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even came upon an altar inscribed, 'To a God Unknown.' Now what you thus worship unknowingly I would proclaim to you" (Acts 17:23).

RA

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I can understand you protecting the christian children from the insidious evils of Harry Potter, however it also says you think The Lord of the Rings is of the devil - which I must protest against.
What???? I have no idea what you're talking about. My all time favorite movie/book series is The Lord of the Rings. And one of my literary heroes, if not my #1 hero, is Tolkien. I love your Avatar. If I chose a LOTR avatar, maybe it'd be an ent.
JS did nothing that the Prophets of the Bible did not do, and in some cases a heck of a lot less. You are still running on that old tired Double Standard routine. If you want to exclude JS from being a Prophet of God simply because of what he did. Then you must, by necessity, exclude every other Prophet in the Bible.
That's a good recording. I see it works well. Read #121 again.RA
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What???? I have no idea what you're talking about. My all time favorite movie/book series is The Lord of the Rings. And one of my literary heroes, if not my #1 hero, is Tolkien. I love your Avatar. If I chose a LOTR avatar, maybe it'd be an ent.

Well Richard, you need to have a talk with whoever is editing you wiki entry. It seems to state you regard LotR the same way you do Harry Potter.

Abanes is known for his criticism written on J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter novels, particularly the bestselling Harry Potter and the Bible (Horizon Books) in 2002 and Harry Potter, Narnia, and The Lord of the Rings.

But, glad to hear you're a LotR fan.

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... So, please, I ask that you take a moment to think before you try to make an assertion about someone's view that would be a fairly stupid view to hold.

I ask the same of you and everyone else too, rabanes.

Don't just believe and write about what people tell you is true.

Find out what is true for yourself, from the source(s).

The issue surrounding Joseph is not some once-in-a-while, here and there stumbling into this and that, while seeking to live for God and obey truth.

That is the way I know Joseph Smith lived his life, so why ISN'T that the issue???

In the case of Smith, we have an extensive and extended life marred by all kinds of unsavory activities and teachings:

Correction... alleged unsavory activities and teachings... according to some people.

Have you ever heard of such a thing as a "false witness" ?

Not everything people have told you, or will tell you, is true.

... beginning with his deep occultism (never repudiated, condemned, or prohibited for others),

Joseph Smith never sought knowledge or information from Satan or evil sources, if that's what you mean by occult. Joseph Smith sought, and received, knowledge and information from God and good sources, such as those who came from God to minister to him.

... and if you say otherwise you are either a liar or you simply do not know what is true.

...to his early tall tales about all kinds of spirits and such,

Now you're just showing your ignorance.

... to his money-banking scam,

You've obviously been listening to the wrong kind of people.

Joseph never caused nor took part in a money-banking scam.

... to lying about polygamy existing within the fold (most rank-and-file Mormons didn't even know about it),

He never lied about it. He simply didn't reveal everything he knew about it to everyone, for several good reasons.

to his militaristic pronouncements,

Our Lord is going to come back and take over the world. Deal with it.

to.....well, you get the idea.

Yes, I do get the idea.

You've swallowed a lot of lies from people you believe were telling the truth.

As I noted, you can throw out the whole occult issue, and still have a mountain of evidence showing that Smith was no prophet

You wouldn't know a true prophet of God if you saw one, or even if one actually spoke to you through the internet.

Go back and play with who you belong with.

:P

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No one is saying that a prophet of God, or a pastor/teacher, or heck, even basic Christian needs to be: 1) perfect; 2) sinless; or 3) free of all unbiblical actions now and again in life. I mean, that would pretty much discount the entire Bible. Right? So, please, I ask that you take a moment to think before you try to make an assertion about someone's view that would be a fairly stupid view to hold. The issue surrounding Joseph is not some once-in-a-while, here and there stumbling into this and that, while seeking to live for God and obey truth. In the case of Smith, we have an extensive and extended life marred by all kinds of unsavory activities and teachings: beginning with his deep occultism (never repudiated, condemned, or prohibited for others), to his early tall tales about all kinds of spirits and such, to his money-banking scam, to lying about polygamy existing within the fold (most rank-and-file Mormons didn't even know about it), to his militaristic pronouncements, to.....well, you get the idea. As I noted, you can throw out the whole occult issue, and still have a mountain of evidence showing that Smith was no prophet o

I wasn't talking to you with the statement of mine that you quoted.

Nevertheless, I noticed you ignored my question about Rick Warren.

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Rabanes:

"No one is saying that a prophet of God, or a pastor/teacher, or heck, even basic Christian needs to be: 1) perfect; 2) sinless; or 3) free of all unbiblical actions now and again in life. I mean, that would pretty much discount the entire Bible. Right? So, please, I ask that you take a moment to think before you try to make an assertion about someone's view that would be a fairly stupid view to hold. The issue surrounding Joseph is not some once-in-a-while, here and there stumbling into this and that, while seeking to live for God and obey truth. In the case of Smith, we have an extensive and extended life marred by all kinds of unsavory activities and teachings: beginning with his deep occultism (never repudiated, condemned, or prohibited for others), to his early tall tales about all kinds of spirits and such, to his money-banking scam, to lying about polygamy existing within the fold (most rank-and-file Mormons didn't even know about it), to his militaristic pronouncements, to.....well, you get the idea. As I noted, you can throw out the whole occult issue, and still have a mountain of evidence showing that Smith was no prophet."

So we throwout your accusations of occultism. He was NEVER convicted in a court of law of any of the charges leveled against him. He did not nearly sacrifice his own son on the alter, did not turn sticks into snakes, didn't in a fit of peak call out she bears to kill a bunch of kids, make false prophecies. All those actions, and more were by Prophets of the Bible. But that some how excludes JS as a Prophet.

I've known about Mormon polygamy from before I was a member of the Church, some 37 years now. I am about as rank and file a Mormon as they come. Even those with the most fleeting of knowledge of Mormondom knows about polygamy.

THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501â??507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

1â??6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7â??14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15â??20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21â??25, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives; 26â??27, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28â??39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages; 40â??47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48â??50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51â??57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58â??66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many awives and bconcubinesâ??

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

3 Therefore, aprepare thy heart to receive and bobey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting acovenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye bdamned; for no one can creject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

5 For all who will have a ablessing at my hands shall abide the blaw which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.

6 And as pertaining to the new and aeverlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my bglory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

7 And verily I say unto you, that the aconditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, boaths, cvows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and dsealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is eanointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by frevelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this gpower (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this hpower in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the ikeys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

8 Behold, mine house is a house of aorder, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

9 Will I aaccept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?

10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not aappointed?

11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father aordained unto you, before the world was?

12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandmentâ??that no man shall acome unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.

13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by athrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall bnot remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.

14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.

15 Therefore, if a aman marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto themâ??Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depthsâ??then shall it be written in the Lambâ??s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.

24 This is aeternal livesâ??to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the aHoly Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they bcommit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be cdelivered unto the buffetings of dSatan unto the day of eredemption, saith the Lord God.

27 The ablasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall bnot be cforgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit dmurder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be edamned, saith the Lord.

28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the alaw of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

29 aAbraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

30 aAbraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loinsâ??from whose bloins ye are, namely, my servant Josephâ??which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the cstars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of aAbraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.

32 Go ye, therefore, and do the aworks of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.

33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.

34 God acommanded Abraham, and Sarah gave bHagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, acommanded it.

36 Abraham was acommanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not bkill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for crighteousness.

37 Abraham received aconcubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and bJacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their cexaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

38 David also received amany wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 aDavidâ??s wives and concubines were bgiven unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the ckeys of this power; and in none of these things did he dsin against me save in the case of eUriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath ffallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I ggave them unto another, saith the Lord.

40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an aappointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.

41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man areceiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy banointing, she hath committed cadultery and shall be destroyed.

42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has acommitted adultery.

43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a avow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery.

44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and agive her unto him that hath not committed badultery but hath been cfaithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.

45 For I have conferred upon you the akeys and power of the priesthood, wherein I brestore all things, and make known unto you all things in due time.

46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you aseal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bbind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you cremit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.

47 And again, verily I say, whomsoever you bless I will bless, and whomsoever you curse I will acurse, saith the Lord; for I, the Lord, am thy God.

48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you agive any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.

49 For I am the Lord thy God, and will be awith thee even unto the bend of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I cseal upon you your dexaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your efather.

50 Behold, I have seen your asacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your bsacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I caccepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac.

51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.

56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to brejoice.

57 And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him; for aSatan bseeketh to destroy; for I am the Lord thy God, and he is my servant; and behold, and lo, I am with him, as I was with Abraham, thy father, even unto his cexaltation and glory.

58 Now, as touching the law of the apriesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.

59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was aAaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that bsent me, and I have endowed him with the ckeys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit dsin, and I will justify him.

60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthoodâ??if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

62 And if he have aten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be bglorified.

64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.

65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take aHagar to wife.

66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.

Further Prophets of the Bible practiced Polygamy. If you exclude JS on the basis of polygamy. You must, of necessity, exclude the Prophets of the Bible.

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Well Richard, you need to have a talk with whoever is editing you wiki entry. It seems to state you regard LotR the same way you do Harry Potter.

YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!! Lemme go look. I'll be really ticked off at that. TY for letting me know.

RA

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I've known about Mormon polygamy from before I was a member of the Church, some 37 years now. I am about as rank and file a Mormon as they come. Even those with the most fleeting of knowledge of Mormondom knows about polygamy.

I didn't say lying NOW in our current day. Goodness. Calm down and actually read what I wrote. Smith and the other early LDS leaders lied to the general Mormon population about the practice of polygamy as it was already being done -- but only behnid closed doors LONG before that revelation was released to the LDS general public. Smith and c/ snuck it into the church, practiced it secretly, and lied publicly about it when defectors said that it was being done. Please see my paperback version of One Nation Under Gods -- Chapter 13, "Unholy Matrimony." It's documented. As for polygamy in the Old Testament, here's a response. Accept it, or don't accept it. Whatever:

POLYGAMY

The plural marriages (polygamy) of Abraham, David, and Solomon are seen by mainstream Christian pastors, Bible teachers, and theologians as an ungodly lifestyle compromises that God tolerated due to the hardness of men's hearts, similar to the way divorce was tolerated (Mark 10:4-5).

Nowhere do we ever read in the Bible that men and women who seek to follow God are perfect, sinless, right in all they do, or infallible (just ask my wife). In fact, the Bible shows the very opposite -- those who seek to follow God are still sinners and they show that with sad frequency this fact. We see it today still. But the true Christians strives to do better each day and are willing to change for the better. They know, believe in, and trust God and seek to follow him. That certainly describes me. And it describes persons like David and Abraham.

This is the very issue I have discussed with Mormons many times. The Bible itself depicts various instances of polygamy as examples of men straying from righteousness. David, for instance, fed his lust to the point of taking the wife of a man whom he then had murdered (i.e., Uriah). Solomon showed disobedience by taking multiple wives, which in turn contributed to his fall into idolatry. And Abraham not only disobeyed God, but demonstrated a lack of faith in God's promises by impregnating Hagar. His act reflects the pagan practices of his surrounding culture. As The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states:

In Mesopotamia, marriage contracts frequently specified that a wife who proved infertile should give her handmaid to her husband in order to produce children for the household. This situation underlies the procedure whereby Sarah's handmaid Hagar was given by her to Abraham as a wife (Gen. 16:3) for purposes of procreation. In accepting this polygamous relationship Abraham was acceding to local custom rather than obeying the divine decree or trusting God's promise to him concerning descendants [vol. 3, 901].

In other words, just because polygamy was practiced by some Old Testament "godly" men, who also were sinners, it does not logically follow that God (or the Bible) was endorsing that behavior, which would make both God and the Bible seriously contradicted. Godly men in the Old Testament also lied (Abraham), resorted to murder (David), and committed incest (Noah). Does this mean such practices were appropriate or God-ordained? Hardly. Also consider the following:

1 ) The marriage pattern set forth in the Genesis creation story seems to indicate that the biblical ideal for marriage is monogamy. In Genesis we read that after God decided the first man (Adam) should not be alone, Eve (one woman) was created for him. This is our first indication that one woman for one man is God's desire. Singular pairing is reinforced by God declaring: "I will make a helper for him" (Gen. 2:18). In other words, God made one helper for Adam. Again, the ideal relational union seems to be one for one, rather than several for one. The oft-quoted instructive passage that follows underscores yet a third time the one to one coupling: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave unto his wife [singular] and they shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24).

2 ) The first place polygamy appears in the Bible (Genesis 4:19) is significant. It involves Lamech, the first polygamist. Far from being an admirable character, he is a member of the violent Cainite tribe, a descendant of the infamous Cain ( Gen. 4:1-8 ), and a man in whom is seen "[t]he powerful development of the worldly mind and of ungodliness" six generations removed from Adam (C.F. Keil and F. Delitzsch,
Commentary on the Old Testament
[Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1996 edition], vol. 1, 73). In his "sword song," for instance, Lamech boasts of killing a man and a boy, then brags that anyone harming him would be avenged (Gen. 4:23-24). Is this really the kind of character God would use to introduce such an allegedly blessed practice as polygamy? Probably not.

3 ) The results of polygamous unions in the Old Testament are decidedly negative, aggravating sins normally associated with marriage in general, and producing strife and turmoil unique to polygamy. Incessant fighting, bitterness, anger, and jealousy plagued Abraham's two wives (Sarah and Hagar), both of whom suffered great emotional anguish, especially Hagar (Gen. 21:8-16). Jacob's wives (Rachel and Leah), although sisters, were relationally torn by bitterness (Gen. 30:15). Friction between Elkanah's wives (Hannah and Peninnah) caused heartbreak and anger in Hannah (1 Sam. 1:1-10). David resorted to murder to have another wife (2 Sam. 11). Solomon's polygamy turned him into an idolater ( 1 Kings 11:1-8 ).

4 ) There is a complete absence of any Old Testament verse wherein God extols polygamy as virtuous. Yet there exists a very explicit verse warning Hebrew kings to not multiply wives because it would turn their hearts away from God (Deut. 17:17).

5 ) In the Proverbs written by Solomon, marriage-related verses do not enjoin polygamy but rather suggest monogamy: "A virtuous woman [not virtuous women] is a crown to her husband" (Prov. 12:4). "Who can find a virtuous woman? [not women] for her price is far above rubies. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her [not in them]... Her husband [not their husband] is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders" (Prov. 31:10-11, 23).

6 ) Malachi 2:13-16 shows that as late as the 5th century B.C. fidelity between one wife and one husband was "still being promoted as a paradigm of the relationship that ought to exist between Israel and her God exalted and used as a picture of the relationship between God and Israel" (
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
, vol. 3, 901).

7 ) Several New Testament verses direct not only Bishops/Elders to have one wife, but also enjoin each man to have his own wife (1 Tim.3:2; Titus 1:6; 1 Corinthians 7:2).

8 ) Biblical symbolism is used to depict the church as the bride of Christ; a bride (singular), who is lovingly cared for by the Savior (Joel 2:16; John 3:29; 2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:24-31; Rev. 19:7; 21:2-9). This illustration is transferred over to the marital relationship between one man and one woman. Such an analogy (i.e., Christ/Church to Husband/Wife) would be rendered meaningless/invalid by polygamy. Ephesians 5:33 adds: "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife [singular], and they two shall be one flesh... [L]et every one of you in particular so love his wife [singular] even as himself; and the wife [singular] see that she reverence her husband."

Again, we see a pattern here that is consistent with: a ) one man and one woman as a married pattern; and b ) polygamy as a departure from that pattern. Now, of you choose to reject that pattern, well, that is certainly your right. But it is in the Bible that particular way. And before you bring up 2 Sam. 12:7-9, let me answer you:

2 Sam. 12:7-9 reads: "And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things."

First, for David to have been given the "wives" of Saul would have been extremely difficult since we know: a ) Saul had only one wife and one concubine (1 Sam. 14:50); and b ) Abner appropriated Saul's concubine for himself (2 Sam. 3:7). So where are all of the wives? Answer: They don't exist. There is no documentation that indicates: a ) Saul had all these so-called "wives"; or b ) David took any wives from Saul.

Second, in the East it was the general custom for a king's successor to take everything possessed by that king. His country, his throne, his harem, his treasures -- his everything! Enumerating such things in a formulaic way indicated a complete turnover of power and authority. It was customary to list all kinds of possessions even when such possessions might not have truly existed (e.g., "keeper of the cattle on a thousand hills," "holder of the moon and the stars," "master of your enemies chariots"). In other words, it's a kind of pronouncement. What we have here is God saying to David, basically, "What is your problem? I gave you everything there was to give. I gave you Saul's total kingdom. Nothing was held back from you, yet you still behave like this."

Third, even if only for the sake of discussion we were to say that God DID give to David some as yet unknown/undiscovered wives of Saul -- then such "wives" would merely constitute an aspect of Saul's kingdom that would have naturally had to go to David in that social/cultural era. This statement under those circumstances, again, would still be an example of God communicating a well-known Eastern tradition involving the transfer of kingly authority.

Remember that humanity has "free will" -- that is a fundamental aspect of Christianity. And within a world where God allows "free will" to exist, he usually works within the framework of the world that has been created by humanity -- and within the world are behaviors that go against God's perfect will. That'd be sin. This is not teh same thing as God commanding polygamy, or divirce, or slavery. (There are parallels in ancient Israel, for example, to divorce and slavery.) God allowed these activities, tolerated them, even made provisions to protect women and children involved, but there are no endorsements of them. As for marriage, the biblical ideal and pattern is monogamy (as noted above).

R.A.

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The issue surrounding Joseph is not some once-in-a-while, here and there stumbling into this and that, while seeking to live for God and obey truth. In the case of Smith, we have an extensive and extended life marred by all kinds of unsavory activities and teachings: beginning with his deep occultism (never repudiated, condemned, or prohibited for others), to his early tall tales about all kinds of spirits and such, to his money-banking scam, to lying about polygamy existing within the fold (most rank-and-file Mormons didn't even know about it), to his militaristic pronouncements, to.....well, you get the idea. As I noted, you can throw out the whole occult issue, and still have a mountain of evidence showing that Smith was no prophet o

Which begs the question of what constitutes being a prophet. I think a lot of us prefer to look to the experts for that and leave the Harry Potter bashing to you.

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Which begs the question of what constitutes being a prophet. I think a lot of us prefer to look to the experts for that and leave the Harry Potter bashing to you.

Actually, truth be told, a lot of us look directly to God, Himself, for that answer.

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I think a lot of us prefer to look to the experts for that and leave the Harry Potter bashing to you.

LOL!!!! Julianne, is that you?! HA! Good to see ya. yes, I'm sure you look to your LDS experts. As for HP, I've never really bashed it, but painting me that way, I'm sure, feels very good. :P

best wishes, J, long time no talk,

R.A.

P.S. I know you've missed me terribly. ;)

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So we throwout your accusations of occultism. He was NEVER convicted in a court of law of any of the charges leveled against him. He did not nearly sacrifice his own son on the alter, did not turn sticks into snakes, didn't in a fit of peak call out she bears to kill a bunch of kids, make false prophecies. All those actions, and more were by Prophets of the Bible. But that some how excludes JS as a Prophet.

Just editing your post to make it more readable for rabanes, thesometimesaint.

You don't really think he read through all of those verses you quoted, do you?

Let's try to keep it simple for the ridiculous people on this board, shall we.

Thank you.

:P

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Bat-Man:

I do have some hope that he does, but only time will tell.

Why would he bother? His pattern seems to be to only really answer things that he can respond to with one of two things: 1) a cut & paste from one his books (along with a convenient link to where you can buy a copy); or 2) a snarky comment intended to make it look like a reasonable response to you is beneath him. Good luck with that.

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Why would he bother? His pattern seems to be to only really answer things that he can respond to with one of two things: 1) a cut & paste from one his books (along with a convenient link to where you can buy a copy); or 2) a snarky comment intended to make it look like a reasonable response to you is beneath him. Good luck with that.

Has rabanes, and DPeterson every gotten into a debate here?

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Once again we hit the crux of the issue that neither Richard, nor any other Evangelical critic ever wants to touch: what constitutes a prophet? What are the requirements? What are the disqualifiers? Must he perform miracles? Must he fortell the future? What if he sins? Can a prophet fall? Or is it that once he is called, he is always called? Must he write scripture? Heal the sick? Enlighten about the past?

What, exactly, are the parameters? Richard et. al., are very happy to tell us what isn't a prophet. Why so slow to tell us what is?

C.I.

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Has rabanes, and DPeterson every gotten into a debate here?

Not that I've seen, but if they did, it would likely go on and on forever and ever without either one of them ever arriving at a consensus, except perhaps to agree that they disagree and will always disagree forever and ever unless one of them switches sides or something like that, which just isn't going to happen.

Have you ever seen a dog hold on to a rag with his teeth while someone is pulling on it?

That's kinda how I think it would go, if they did do that, and I think Daniel would be the first one to let go and then only because he would realize the futility of pulling against the opposition.

:P

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Not that I've seen, but if they did, it would likely go on and on forever and ever without either one of them ever arriving at a consensus, except perhaps to agree that they disagree and will always disagree forever and ever unless one of them switches sides or something like that, which just isn't going to happen.

Have you ever seen a dog hold on to a rag with his teeth while someone is pulling on it?

That's kinda how I think it would go, if they did do that, and I think Daniel would be the first one to let go and then only because he would realize the futility of pulling against the opposition.

:P

Which is, I suspect, why we have not seen DCP jump back into the fray since the professional anti arrived.

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I do have some hope that he does, but only time will tell.

You don't think I've read D&C 132 before? Gracious. I've read it only about a million times, as well as the pertinent information surrounding its origins, history, and controversies? Goodness. Did you read what I said in response, is the question.

RA

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You don't think I've read D&C 132 before? Gracious. I've read it only about a million times, as well as the pertinent information surrounding its origins, history, and controversies? Goodness. Did you read what I said in response, is the question.

RA

See? Snarky response.

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What, exactly, are the parameters? Richard et. al., are very happy to tell us what isn't a prophet. Why so slow to tell us what is?

This is why I end up leaving, because I get tired of reposting the same sentences over and over and over -- no one reads. I said in #121: "How about having the right 'God.' That's a good start. JS said Christendom had the wrong God. Christendom said Joseph had the wrong God. So, basically, make your choice. I choose the God of the Bible." So, here, let me try again -- Having the right God is the best place to start when it comes to whether or not a man is a prophet of God. We really don't need to go beyond that. And IMHO, Joseph, and as a result, all of Mormonism, has a false God. There.

Has rabanes, and DPeterson every gotten into a debate here?

The closest Dan and I have ever gotten to full blown discussions was: 1) I write Inside Today's Mormonism, and I invited him to write an Appendix titled Why I Am a Mormon. he graciously accepted and it is in that volume; and 2) he and I had dinner together and talked about several issues. It was a very enjoyable meal. And our discussions at that meal will remain private, as far as I am concerned. I like DP.

Good for you. Then you agree that the Church from its earliest of days has taught polygamy.

Unbelievable. Did you actually read anytihng I said about Joseph and the early leaders lying about it to their own flock and the public? And if you want to learn about polygamy, I suggest you read how Joseph basically snuck that one in on everyone, including poor Emma. Can anyone say Fanny Alger and a barn.

RA

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You don't think I've read D&C 132 before? Gracious. I've read it only about a million times, as well as the pertinent information surrounding its origins, history, and controversies? Goodness. Did you read what I said in response, is the question.

RA

I did, and in summary I would say that you have chosen to agree with those who agree with you and your perception of things while not agreeing with those of us who know and understand the truth of these things.

... and yes, I know, you believe your sides knows and understands the truth of these things, regardless of what I am saying or what I may yet say in the future.

... yada yada yada.

The end.

:P

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