Saved Through Faith...

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

The Bible reveals "grace and faith" ... it does not reveal "after all we can do". God has saved us according to grace, not according to our works (2Tim 1:9).

The sanctification process is an on-going process (Gal. 4:19), and the results of which are yet to be "confirmed" by the sinner's personal "diligence" in incorporating the gifts of the Spirit into his life (2 Pet. 1:10; Gal. 5:25). Thus, during our earthly life, we have only the power to become "sons of God" (John 1:12), a process which requires a life-long process of sanctification, and may be interrupted before it is completed by a fall from grace. (Matt. 7:21-23)

You must do all you can, or you will fall from grace.

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

I agree it is a simple concept ... If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6).

There is much confusion over references to the works of the Law of Moses, and the good works that Christ taught(see sermon on the mount amongst others). Remember, the Law of Moses was all they knew and understood, and they thought salvation came throught the works of the Law of Moses. There was a lot of time and effort spent explaining that the Law of Moses was fulfilled and no longer in effect, but that a new, higher law was now in effect.

[Billy]

No, requiring works does not make works determinant, it simply makes works a requirement.

I will choose who I take on the trip.

I will only choose those who have food.

Food does not place one on the trip, food only makes one eligible.

I am the only means of going on the trip.

But in your example food does play an important role. The one who had the food gets to go on the trip and he can brag that the reason that he went is because he had food.

slight variation to your example to make it more clear

I will choose who I take on the trip.

I will only choose those who have food. good looks

Good looks Food does not place one on the trip, Good looksfood only makes one eligible.

I am the only means of going on the trip.

[wes]

The difference between Mormonism and Christianity regarding this issue basically boils down to this:

Mormonism

obedience to the laws and ordinances of Mormonism + doing "all we can do" + "grace" through faith = salvation

Christianity

Grace through Faith = Salvation (obedience, or loving God and others, is a result of salvation with gratitude as the motivator)

The 1st equation is based on official Mormon teaching (3rd article of faith, 2 Nephi 25:23) and is also what I was taught growing up in the LDS church.

The 2nd equation is based on the Bible and has also been my experience as a Christian.

I am no longer motivated by the guilt and fear that I once had as a Mormon. As a kid I was never really sure where I stood with God. I remember after my baptism how afraid I was to mess up because now I was accountable and everything I did was being constantly monitored by the Mormon god who expected nothing less than perfection. I remember being taught in Seminary that I better be good because all my sins would be shouted from rooftops at the judgment. I could not be motivated by gratitude because my brother Jesus' sacrifice only got me so far and was not enough to completely save me. I'm sure there were moments where I felt pretty good about myself but that only puffed me up. The rest of the time I had the immense burden of always trying to do all I could so my efforts would be seen as good enough.

So what about now? Well, I am still a very imperfect human being who struggles and sins. The difference, however, is that I now understand that the God of the universe became flesh and paid the penalty that I deserve. Wow! Now that's love! Because of that, I know exactly where I stand with God. I am in awe of his sacrificial love which I cannot help but be grateful for. I know I do not deserve any of his grace and that I will never be able to do enough to achieve the standard of righteousness that Jesus did. Thank God I don't have to. This has been a huge relief. Now I get to do good things because I want to and not because I have to.

[johnny]

Ray Callis Hatto...

You must do all you can, or you will fall from grace.

Which Bible verse reveals "You must do all you can, or you will fall from grace."?

The Bible says we work out our salvation by God working in us (Phil 2:12,13).

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

There is much confusion over references to the works of the Law of Moses, and the good works that Christ taught(see sermon on the mount amongst others).

What works are the following Mormon Church referring to?

Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 18 "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.â?

[Zakuska]

Flyonthewall

I agree it is a simple concept ... If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6).

So Johnny why do you miss the second part of the verse?

"But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Grace and works are at opposite ends of the Savation stick. Faith bridges the Gap and joins them together.

[Bee Eff]

But in your example food does play an important role. The one who had the food gets to go on the trip and he can brag that the reason that he went is because he had food.

slight variation to your example to make it more clear

I will choose who I take on the trip.

I will only choose those who have food. good looks

Good looks Food does not place one on the trip, Good looksfood only makes one eligible.

I am the only means of going on the trip.

Put anything you want in there. Here is a slight variation to absolutely clarify it:

God will choose who God saves

God will only choose those who have faith

Faith does not save you, faith only makes you eligible. (Faith can only exist in the presence of works)

God's grace is the only means of being saved.

[johnny]

wes

I remember being taught in Seminary that I better be good because all my sins would be shouted from rooftops at the judgment. I could not be motivated by gratitude because my brother Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross only got me so far and was not enough to save me.

My experience is that Mormon do not understand the atonement, the Mormon Church teaches:

• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 12 "Christ did his part to atone for our sins. To make his atonement fully effective ... we will keep his terms, which are to repent and keep his commandments ...we may return to live with our Heavenly Father."
  

The Bible reveals that Christ did more than his part to atone for our sins. The blood of Jesus Christ cleans us from all sin (1John 1:7-9). By one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified, we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (Heb 10:10,14). We have access by faith to the free gift of righteousness by grace (Rom 5:2,15-18). If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6).

I am in awe of his sacrificial love which I cannot help but be grateful for. I know I do not deserve any of his grace and that I will never be able to do enough to achieve the standard of righteousness that Jesus did. Thank God I don't have to. This has been a huge relief. Now I get to do good things because I want to and not because I have to.

Thank you for sharing this ... We keep his commandments not to be saved, we keep them because we love God (John 14:15-23). The commandments of God are that we should believe and love one another (1John 3:23).

[Zakuska]

Flyonthewall

What works are the following Mormon Church referring to?

Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 18 "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for."

John 14: 12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

What works did Jesus do that we must do also?

The Bible reveals that Christ did more than his part to atone for our sins. The blood of Jesus Christ cleans us from all sin (1John 1:7-9).

YOU FORGOT THE CONDITION: If we Repent.

By one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified, we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (Heb 10:10,14).

The probelm with your reading of this Johnny...

The Noun Changes in verse 14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Are the Saints who are here on this earth perfected yet?

Remember Paul wasn't among those who where perfect...

Philip. 3: 12

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

And there are to be Apostles in the church until the Saints are made perfect...

Eph 4

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the bedifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

If the Saints are already perfect by Christs blood like you say then why the need for Apostesl in the Ministry to pefect them?

We have access by faith to the free gift of righteousness by grace (Rom 5:2,15-18). If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6).

There you go missing the end of the verse again.

"But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

What works are the following Mormon Church referring to?

Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 18 "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.â?

Obedience to the commandments...repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, ministering to the sick, partaking of the sacrament, teaching the gospel to others, temple marriage, etc.. There are plenty of things to do, and be done in the service of the Lord.

Do you not recognize any good works to be done in the service of the Lord?

[Billy]

So what about now? Well, I am still a very imperfect human being who struggles and sins. The difference, however, is that I now understand that the God of the universe became flesh and paid the penalty that I deserve. Wow! Now that's love! Because of that, I know exactly where I stand with God. I am in awe of his sacrificial love which I cannot help but be grateful for. I know I do not deserve any of his grace and that I will never be able to do enough to achieve the standard of righteousness that Jesus did. Thank God I don't have to. This has been a huge relief. Now I get to do good things because I want to and not because I have to.

Good summary, that is pretty much how I feel since I have left Mormonism and have embraced mainstream Christianity. Another thing that I have noticed since leaving the LDS church, is how much more clearly I can see myself as a sinner and how much I NEED and appreciate Christ's sacrifice. For some reason, as an LDS, admitting that you are a sinner is sort of admitting defeat in some sort of strange way. Just go look at the "perfection" thread, despite the posters saying that they sin they still say they are PERFECT by their own actions and not a sinner. Go figure.

[Bee Eff]

Bee Eff

Why then does Mormon Scripture reveal "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do"?

Why then does the Mormon Church teach "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.â? Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 18 ?

Without faith, one cannot be saved. Without works, one cannot have faith.

You extend the verse further than is needful, LDS believe that only God can save us, and that it is only his grace through our face which saves us.

After all we can do, we are not yet saved. After all we can do, we have presented ourselves to God, yet we are not yet saved. After all we can do, God's grace will save us through our faith.

Faith is all that I can do.

[johnny]

Zakuska

So Johnny why do you miss the second part of the verse?

The second part of the verse supports my view ... Mormon think it is "works" ... the second part of the verse says "if it be of works, then is it no more grace"

Grace and works are at opposite ends of the Savation stick. Faith bridges the Gap and joins them together.

We work out our salvation by God working in us (Phil 2:12,13). God has saved us according to grace, not according to our works (2Tim 1:9).

What works did Jesus do the we must do also?

We believe and love .. which is faith and grace ...

[Bee Eff]

The difference between Mormonism and Christianity regarding this issue basically boils down to this:

Mormonism

obedience to the laws and ordinances of Mormonism + doing "all we can do" + "grace" through faith = salvation

Christianity

Grace through Faith = Salvation (obedience, or loving God and others, is a result of salvation with gratitude as the motivator)

The 1st equation is based on official Mormon teaching (3rd article of faith, 2 Nephi 25:23) and is also what I was taught growing up in the LDS church.

The 2nd equation is based on the Bible and has also been my experience as a Christian.

I am no longer motivated by the guilt and fear that I once had as a Mormon. As a kid I was never really sure where I stood with God. I remember after my baptism how afraid I was to mess up because now I was accountable and everything I did was being constantly monitored by the Mormon god who expected nothing less than perfection. I remember being taught in Seminary that I better be good because all my sins would be shouted from rooftops at the judgment. I could not be motivated by gratitude because my brother Jesus' sacrifice only got me so far and was not enough to completely save me. I'm sure there were moments where I felt pretty good about myself but that only puffed me up. The rest of the time I had the immense burden of always trying to do all I could so my efforts would be seen as good enough.

So what about now? Well, I am still a very imperfect human being who struggles and sins. The difference, however, is that I now understand that the God of the universe became flesh and paid the penalty that I deserve. Wow! Now that's love! Because of that, I know exactly where I stand with God. I am in awe of his sacrificial love which I cannot help but be grateful for. I know I do not deserve any of his grace and that I will never be able to do enough to achieve the standard of righteousness that Jesus did. Thank God I don't have to. This has been a huge relief. Now I get to do good things because I want to and not because I have to.

Perhaps you should clarify this,

In your post switch "Christianity" with "mainstream Christianity for the last ~500, but not before"

Faith alone was Martin Luther's addition, not a thing existent in the Bible.

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

Obedience to the commandments...repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, ministering to the sick, partaking of the sacrament, teaching the gospel to others, temple marriage, etc.. There are plenty of things to do, and be done in the service of the Lord.

Does it also include the Mormon commandments of marriage, not drinking wine, not drinking cofee?

Do you not recognize any good works to be done in the service of the Lord?

I recognize that the commandments of God are believe and love one another (1John 3:23).

[johnny]

Bee Eff

Without faith, one cannot be saved. Without works, one cannot have faith.

God has saved us according to grace, not according to our works (2Tim 1:9).

Faith is all that I can do.

The Mormon Church thinks you can do more, it teaches:

• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 18 "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.â?
  

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Ray Callis Hatto...

Which Bible verse reveals "You must do all you can, or you will fall from grace."?

The Bible says we work out our salvation by God working in us (Phil 2:12,13).

"Doing all you can", as Paul told the Philippians to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:13) Scripture, is replete with warnings that one may fall from grace and lose his salvation altogether (1 Cor. 9:27; 10:12; 1 Tim. 1:19; Heb. 6:4-6; 12:15). The New Testament contains no such thing as "once saved, always saved", if you want "eternal security" then you must show effort, insufficient as it is, to keep grace.

[wes]

Good summary, that is pretty much how I feel since I have left Mormonism and have embraced mainstream Christianity. Another thing that I have noticed since leaving the LDS church, is how much more clearly I can see myself as a sinner and how much I NEED and appreciate Christ's sacrifice. For some reason, as an LDS, admitting that you are a sinner is sort of admitting defeat in some sort of strange way. Just go look at the "perfection" thread, despite the posters saying that they sin they still say they are PERFECT by their own actions and not a sinner. Go figure.

Yes, I fully agree. I never saw my need for salvation to the same degree as I do now. I think this was in part due to a focus on things like keeping the word of wisdom. By focusing on that in particular, a person can think themselves righteous as long as they don't drink or smoke. An example from the "perfection" thread was the person who said he was "perfect in that area" or something like that. If anything, this definitely leaves open the possibility of thinking "at least I'm more perfect than the people who drink and smoke" which I witnessed many times in Mormonism.

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

Does it also include the Mormon commandments of marriage, not drinking wine, not drinking cofee?

Marriage has always been a commandment of God. The word of wisdom is a latter day teaching of God, that is now binding upon His church. The OT had a code of health that involved what is good to eat(clean), and what is not(unclean). In these latter days, why would it be unthinkable that He would give a revised code of health?.

I recognize that the commandments of God are believe and love one another (1John 3:23).

but not to be obeyed?

[Noah]

Noah

For Mormons is it through grace AND ...

• Mormon Articles of Faith "3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.â?
  
• -
  
• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 12 "Christ did his part to atone for our sins. To make his atonement fully effective ... we will keep his terms, which are to repent and keep his commandments ...we may return to live with our Heavenly Father."
  

It essentially this:

Christ did more than his part to atone for our sins. The blood of Jesus Christ cleans us from all sin (1John 1:7-9). By one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified, we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (Heb 10:10,14). We have access by faith to the free gift of righteousness by grace (Rom 5:2,15-18). If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6). Faith comes by hearing the word of God, with the heart man believes (Rom 10:9-17).

The teachings of the Mormon church appear to give it stock, it teaches:

• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 18 "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.â?
  

Johnny, it's strange how I agree with you although you seem to want to disagree with me.

I am perfectly aware of what the official LDS position is with regard to grace (although it seems rather fluid). I reject it wholeheartedly because I think the BoM as a whole says something entirely different than our popular understanding of the verse in 2 Nephi 25.

I'm contending that the BoM does teach Salvation by grace and grace alone (based on the accounts already mentioned)--bearing in mind that we must strive to align our will with God's will, ie, we must want for ourselves what he wants for us. IF there is a point of disagreement at all (and I really don't know), it is that I believe our wills are independent of God's will until we ourselves choose and acknowledge Christ as our Lord and Saviour.

If you want to argue on the basis of what various LDS leaders have taught, or what the majority of Mormons believe, then we have nothing to disagree upon. Most Mormons are quite simply incorrect about this one; the critics have nailed us, and I hope they don't let up until we come to our senses.

However, obedience does play a role because it ties back to faith, and faith ties back to agency. That said, if you wanted to argue that mainstream Christianity puts zero emphasis on obedience, you would be utterly unpersuasive. It would be nothing more than insincere double-talk.

And in terms of the Covenant agreement one makes with God, we are essentially saying the same thing, because it is only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ that we are reconciled with our Father in Heaven, receive special promises and blessings, and become his sons and daughters...the Bible proclaims such in no uncertain terms.

[johnny]

Ray Callis Hatto...

"Doing all you can", as Paul told the Philippians to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:13)

Sounds like God is doing the work ... sounds like grace ...

Phil.2 ([12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. [13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.)

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

but not to be obeyed?

We obeyed his commandments of believe and love because we love God ... we don't obey his commandments so we enter a Mormon temple so we can obey the Mormon commandment of marriage.

[Zakuska]

Flyonthewall

I recognize that the commandments of God are believe and love one another (1John 3:23).

Very Good... you have just defined the two Great Commandments...

Which are basically all the other commandments rolled up into one (or two as the case is).

Matt. 7: 12

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Romans 13

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that bloveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit aadultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not bsteal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not ccovet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy dneighbour as thyself.

10 aLove worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the blaw.

I thought we weren't under the law anymore.. why is Paul telling us to obey the 10 commandments?

[Bee Eff]

Bee Eff

God has saved us according to grace, not according to our works (2Tim 1:9).

Which is what I keep saying.

The Mormon Church thinks you can do more, it teaches:

• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 18 "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.â?
  

Your quote merely supports my statement: Faith is all that I can do. There must indeed be works with faith, without them faith is dead, as the body is dead without the spirit. Works are the spirit of faith. This quote doesn't state that there is anything more that you can do.