Saved Through Faith...

[Bee Eff]

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Is the common claim "Grace through Faith" a form of boasting?

Every time I hear similar it seems a boast by the author. A method of stating that their belief is better because they focus on faith and deny works.

[Joseph Antley]

I really don't think many Christians today understand what Paul was saying.

[Billy]

I really don't think many Christians today understand what Paul was saying.

What was he really saying?

[Bee Eff]

What was he really saying?

Works have no impact on our salvation, for only God can save us regardles of what we do. We do not boast, because no matter what we do, we cannot save ourselves. We can only be saved by God.

This doesn't negate the need to be a useful servant. The NT has a prominant theme showing that being useful, diligent, prepared, kind, etc. is required. I believe that if we went and researched every teaching Christ gave we would find that Christ only taught that works were necessary.

Works may not save us, but if we are unfit servants, we will not be saved.

[Billy]

Works may not save us, but if we are unfit servants, we will not be saved.

What is an unfit servant?

Can one be saved without any works?

[johnny]

Bee Eff

Is the common claim "Grace through Faith" a form of boasting?

The claim is "by grace are ye saved through faith" ... it is not "Grace through Faith" like you have stated.

Every time I hear similar it seems a boast by the author. A method of stating that their belief is better because they focus on faith and deny works.

Non-Mormon beliefs are consistent with the Bible. The Bible reveals grace and faith. The Bible does not reveal "after all we can do" like Mormon scripture. We are not saved "after all we can do", we are saved by grace and faith (Eph 2:8 ) . God has saved us according to grace, not according to our works (2Tim 1:9). If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6). Through faith we receive the Spirit (Gal 3:14). Faith without the spirit is dead, it is not faith only (James 2:13-26). We work out our salvation by God working in us (Phil 2:12,13).

[Zakuska]

What is an unfit servant?

Can one be saved without any works?

Was the fig tree spared when Christ came to it and found no fruit?

[johnny]

Bee Eff

Works have no impact on our salvation, for only God can save us regardles of what we do. We do not boast, because no matter what we do, we cannot save ourselves. We can only be saved by God.

The Mormon Church must think it has some impact it teaches:

• Mormon Articles of Faith "3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.â?
  
• -
  
• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 12 "Christ did his part to atone for our sins. To make his atonement fully effective ... we will keep his terms, which are to repent and keep his commandments ...we may return to live with our Heavenly Father."
  

Works may not save us, but if we are unfit servants, we will not be saved.

The blood of Jesus Christ cleans us from all sin (1John 1:7-9). By one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified, we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (Heb 10:10,14). We have access by faith to the free gift of righteousness by grace (Rom 5:2,15-18). If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6).

[johnny]

Bee Eff

From the following thread:

Degrees Of Heaven

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...mp;p=1208538864

Where does the Bible state this?

In Ephesians 2:8

Faith without works is dead (James 2: 18, 20, 26). Thus, works must be present for faith. By grace are ye saved through faith (Eph. 2: 8 ). Thus, works must be present for salvation by grace.

Faith without the spirit is dead. We are not saved "after all we can do", we are saved by grace and faith (Eph 2:8 ) .

Set it up in a logical manner:

Set up in a Mormon manner ... "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do"

This is oversimplified, but it is sufficient. Faith is only present given works.

If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6).

[Bee Eff]

What is an unfit servant?

One who does not multiply whatever has been given him. One that does not return an increase of what has been loaned/entrusted.

One who does not fulfill his purpose.

One who does not aid his neighbors.

One who missuses his place.

More, the Bible is full of examples.

Can one be saved without any works?

No, faith without works is dead (James 2: 18, 20, 26). God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matthew 22:32).

[Bee Eff]

Bee Eff

From the following thread:

Degrees Of Heaven

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...mp;p=1208538864

In Ephesians 2:8

Faith without the spirit is dead. We are not saved "after all we can do", we are saved by grace and faith (Eph 2:8 ) .

Set up in a Mormon manner ... "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do"

If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6).

Faith without works is dead (James 2: 18, 20, 26). If there is not faith, then what does Ephesians 2:8 state?

Ephesians 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Without faith, what is salvation through?

[Zakuska]

Bee Eff

The Mormon Church must think it has some impact it teaches:

• Mormon Articles of Faith "3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
  
• -
  
• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 12 "Christ did his part to atone for our sins. To make his atonement fully effective ... we will keep his terms, which are to repent and keep his commandments ...we may return to live with our Heavenly Father."
  

So did Jesus and his Apostles...

Acts 5: 29

29

[Billy]

No, faith without works is dead. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matthew 22:32).

Works have no impact on our salvation, for only God can save us regardles of what we do.

It seems like you are trying to play on both teams.

[johnny]

Bee Eff

Faith without works is dead (James 2: 18, 20, 26).

Faith without the spirit is dead,

• Jas.2 ([26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.)
  

If there is not faith, then what does Ephesians 2:8 state?

Ephesians 2:8 states faith and grace ... it does not state "after all we can do" like the Mormon restored gospel.

Without faith, what is salvation through?

Being saved is faith and grace ... We work out our salvation by God working in us (Phil 2:12,13).

[Bee Eff]

It seems like you are trying to play on both teams.

No, requiring works does not make works determinant, it simply makes works a requirement.

I will choose who I take on the trip.

I will only choose those who have food.

Food does not place one on the trip, food only makes one eligible.

I am the only means of going on the trip.

[Noah]

I would say emphatically that Mormons believe in Salvation through grace, but there is still a lot of confusion in the Church among members regarding the matter. Given the fact that we are "Zion-builders", so to speak, I think duty/works is a huge emphasis for us, so much so that it overshadows what it means to be saved by grace.

That said, Salvation through grace is a contractual agreement (Covenant) between you and God that starts at baptism. Sure, only Christ can save you, but that doesn't mean you don't have a role to play. The contract us essentially thus: I will be your Father, if you will be my son/daughter. What that translates into is aligning our will with God's will. That's the extent of the expectation.

In other words, X amount of works will not get us into heaven. Works are a measure of our faith, and our faith is a measure of a commitment to God. Only those who are wholly committed to God will be Saved, through Grace, in the highest Kingdom.

Does that mean we are perfect? No. Does it even mean we try our best? No--such is a popular misconception. We are commanded to be humble, not because we are good, but because we are not good. Ideally, we obey, but when we fail to obey, the emphasis becomes repentance. If we are a people capable of repentance, then we are worthy of God's Salvation.

Now, about 2 Nephi 25...I don't give this verse a lot of stock. Its one small phrase, and it's meaning is highly ambiguous. Does it mean "apart from" all we can do, "despite" all we can do? Or is it referring to reconciliation...as noted earlier in the verse. In short, the verse simply doesn't tell us much.

However, if you take the BoM as a whole, you see that Salvation through grace is one of its central themes. However, Salvation is ALWAYS PRECEDED BY A CHOICE TO FOLLOW GOD. Lehi's vision, King Benjamin's sermon, Alma's vision of Hell, Helaman 5...these are all accounts that make the Mormon position clear. Salvation comes by grace and grace alone...it was always there for the taking...they only needed to choose it.

Obedience enters the fray because obedience assumes a combination of righteousness and repentance. Without obedience, you have no faith, and with no faith, you have not willed, and without having chosen it, there can be no grace or Salvation.

[Bee Eff]

Bee Eff

Ephesians 2:8 states faith and grace ... it does not state "after all we can do" like the Mormon restored gospel.

Being saved is faith and grace ... We work out our salvation by God working in us (Phil 2:12,13).

So, can faith exist without works? No.

Can faith, given this, precede the works? No.

Works must exist prior to faith.

Thus, at any given time, faith exists "after all we can do".

We are in fact saved "after all that we can do", not by "all that we can do".

[johnny]

Noah

I would say emphatically that Mormons believe in Salvation through grace, but there is still a lot of confusion in the Church among members regarding the matter.

For Mormons is it through grace AND ...

• Mormon Articles of Faith "3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.â?
  
• -
  
• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 12 "Christ did his part to atone for our sins. To make his atonement fully effective ... we will keep his terms, which are to repent and keep his commandments ...we may return to live with our Heavenly Father."
  

The contract us essentially thus: I will be your Father, if you will be my son/daughter. What that translates into is aligning our will with God's will. That's the extent of the expectation.

It essentially this:

Christ did more than his part to atone for our sins. The blood of Jesus Christ cleans us from all sin (1John 1:7-9). By one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified, we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (Heb 10:10,14). We have access by faith to the free gift of righteousness by grace (Rom 5:2,15-18). If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6). Faith comes by hearing the word of God, with the heart man believes (Rom 10:9-17).

Now, about 2 Nephi 25...I don't give this verse a lot of stock. Its one small phrase, and it's meaning is highly ambiguous.

The teachings of the Mormon church appear to give it stock, it teaches:

• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 18 "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.â?
  

[johnny]

Bee Eff

Works must exist prior to faith.

If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6). God has saved us according to grace, not according to our works (2Tim 1:9).

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

"(They) draw near Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but their heart holds off and is far away from Me" (Matt. 15:.

Even though we say we know Him, if we "fail to keep and obey His commandments, (we are) a liar and the truth is not in (us)."

"They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny Him" (Titus 1:15,16).

Are those that come closer to God with their mouths while denying Him by their actions worthy of heaven?

Do I need to remind you good Christain folks about what 'Christ' said on the Sermon on the Mount?

Matt. chapters 5 to 7 (focuses on works, behavior)

Matt. 5:19-21 (must keep commandments)

Matt 5:48 (must seek to be perfect)

Matt. 7:13,14 (the gate is straight and narrow)

Matt. 7:21-23 (Must DO God's will; Christians who do evil will not go to heaven)

Matt. 7:24-28 (those who do what Christ says are built on a sure foundation)

In Romans 2, God shall render to every man according to his deeds; Both in the religion and out of the religion ("Jew and Gentile").

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds...

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil...

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good...

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Obedience is an essential part of saving faith, they are inevitable expressions of that faith. Luke 9, verses 23-26:

23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Doctrine of salvation by faith alone without any requirement for obedience is not truly consistent with Biblical teachings on salvation, on judgment, on free will, and denies any relationship between faith and works. "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:17)

John 14:15-21 "If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

One extensions. To be commanded by Christ and be one with him, we must obey Christ to the best of his or her ability.

Luke 6:43-45 "For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh."

Christ will know who belongs to him by not only their faith in him, but their obedience to his commandments, especially the law of love. One cannot obey the rest of the commandments without obeying thse first and greatest commandments.

And going on in this chapter:

Luke 6:46-49 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great."

Those who obey Christ have a firm testimony and strength in him; those who simply understands the surface and obey only the lesser laws will "fall".

We are save by grace, "after all we can do".

[Bee Eff]

Bee Eff

If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6). God has saved us according to grace, not according to our works (2Tim 1:9).

I never said it was of works or according to our works.

I stated that it was through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) which is dependant on works (James 2: 18, 20, 26).

We are only saved by grace. You and many detractors seem to be incapable of reading the verse:

Ephesians 2:8

...by grace we are saved through faith...

Without faith grace has nothing to save you through. Without works faith is dead. Salvation fails without faith regardless of grace.

This does not state that faith or works saves, only God can do that.

[Flyonthewall]

Bee Eff

Faith without the spirit is dead,

• Jas.2 ([26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.)
  

Ephesians 2:8 states faith and grace ... it does not state "after all we can do" like the Mormon restored gospel.

Being saved is faith and grace ... We work out our salvation by God working in us (Phil 2:12,13).

You definately missed the mark on what James was saying. James says that just as the body without the spirit is dead, so too, is faith without works dead. It is saying the same thing as: the spirit animates the body and gives it life, just as our works animate our faith and gives our faith life.

It's a simple concept really.

Oh, and this is not saying that God does not work in us, but quite the contrary. The more faith we exercise the more grace is made available, and enables us to perform good works that we would not ordinarily do.

[johnny]

Ray Callis Hatto...

Obedience is an essential part of saving faith, they are inevitable expressions of that faith. Luke 9, verses 23-26:

We keep his commandments not to be saved, we keep them because we love God (John 14:15-23). The commandments of God are that we should believe and love one another (1John 3:23). We work out our salvation by God working in us (Phil 2:12,13).

We are save by grace, "after all we can do".

The Bible reveals "grace and faith" ... it does not reveal "after all we can do". God has saved us according to grace, not according to our works (2Tim 1:9).

[johnny]

Bee Eff

We are only saved by grace. You and many detractors seem to be incapable of reading the verse:

Why then does Mormon Scripture reveal "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do"?

Why then does the Mormon Church teach "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.â? Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 18 ?

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

It's a simple concept really.

I agree it is a simple concept ... If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6).