The Garden Of Eden In North America

[soren]

Wouldn't that make the New World really the Old, and the Old World really the New?

Yes. In fact, there a book by Thomas Cottle called Adam-Ondi-Ahman: The Legacy of Adam and Eve that makes precisely this point. I provides a pretty good all-around study of LDS teachings about Adam and Eve, by the way.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

What is more "logically unsound", that these locations existed all together as a group in one location, then all disappeared completely off of the face of the earth without a trace, and then all appeared together again as one group in a completely different location?

Yeah, because it would be illogical to name a new place or geographic features near where you newly settled after places once near and dear to you. Like Paris, Long, York, Jersey, Salem, etc. etc. etc. etc. (I have a list somewhere of literally thousands of these).

The reality is that many people, when moving to a new area, will name something that already exists after what they know. In many cases it includes multiple associations (land, river, mountain of new areas called after old ones). Occasionally the word "new" may be added, but not often. Additionally, many places are named after people or concepts and are thus repeated over and over in a given culture.

Billy, if you believe in a global flood, there is no way that the rivers mentioned would have survived. You said "All" but not "all" did have name transferal. Several instances in that grouping have been shown to be lacking. This can be taken as evidence that the names we know had an association to objects later in time, explaining why the rivers we see are nothing like what's described in the Garden motif and why a few names go unused.

The issue is not one of whether you accept that it was no where you think it is Billy, but whether you have the scholarly ability to acknowledge the merits of another's viewpoints.

[Shera]

Hey all, This thread is based on my understanding that Joseph Smith claimed the Garden of Eden was located near Missouri. I got thinking about this subject after watching a movie called: Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey, which can be seen here:

:http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=journey+of+man&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#hl=en&emb=0&aq=f&q=spencer%20wells&src=2

From the work of Spencer Wells and my understanding of archaeology, which is admittedly limited, it seems that the first humans in North America date back roughly 15,000 years ago. I have read that humans left Africa as long as 50,000 years ago, not to mention other human like species being present in Africa prior to that period. The evidence I have seen seems to indicate that humans arrived in the Americas much later than other regions of the world. I see two problems here:

1. If human life began in the Americas, as per Joseph Smith's teachings, why are the earliest evidences of human life not found here? Is there earlier evidence of human life that I am not aware of yet?

2. This evidence has implications against the timeline illustrated in the Bible, ie. human life did not begin roughly 6000 years ago.

What do you guys think, both faithful and sceptical alike?

Thanks all.

In the creation it talks of an organized matter that was used and organized to create the earth. Who's to say that this unorganized matter didn't contain these remains?

We need to start with the milk of doctrine before we get into the meat. We need to stay close to the trunk of the tree instead of getting too far onto the branches, cause that's when we fall.

[baddonkey]

In the creation it talks of an organized matter that was used and organized to create the earth. Who's to say that this unorganized matter didn't contain these remains?

...

How the heck did it wind up neatly stratified then?

???

???

[Billy]

Yeah, because it would be illogical to name a new place or geographic features near where you newly settled after places once near and dear to you. Like Paris, Long, York, Jersey, Salem, etc. etc. etc. etc. (I have a list somewhere of literally thousands of these).

1. Tigris

2. Euphrates

3. Assyria

4. Ethiopia

So you believe that these 4 existed here in America at one time?

Any ideas where they might of been located?

Billy, if you believe in a global flood, there is no way that the rivers mentioned would have survived.

Genesis was written during the time of Moses, well after the flood. Did Moses use the 4 names above as they existed during his time as landmarks, or do you think that he made up the above 4 names (Tigris. . .)? If he used the names as they existed while he was writing the Torah, don't you think that he would of made a stipulation that even though there is a Tigris that happens to be in the Middle East located in close proximity to where he was at the time, that the Tigris that he was speaking about was not in the Middle East, but rather in a distant land across the ocean (Missouri)?

[Shera]

How the heck did it wind up neatly stratified then?

???

???

Why is the earth perfectly aligned with the Sun? I don't know, that's just the way God made it. He has reasons that we don't understand.

Taking unorganized matter is just one possible scenario.

[katherine the great]

Using your logic above, I can also state that since there is not a single head of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in the Middle East that splits into four river; there isn't a river Pishon in the Middle East, nor a river Gihon. Its "most obvious" that Moses was trying to tell us that the garden wasn't in the Middle East.

I think it is most obvious that the ancients believed the garden of Eden to be in the region (now underwater) of the Persian Gulf. There are two fossil rivers that fit the description of the Pison and Gihon quite nicely.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

I realize my post might be too long to read, so I'll repost info from that: There is also a Jewish tradition that the Garden of Eden was in Jerusalem. In Ez. 28:13 says â??You were in Eden, the garden of God,â? and then parallels that in the next verse with â??you were on the holy mountain of God,â? generally understood as the temple mount. There is a spring of water in Jerusalem known as the Gihon, one of the unidentified rivers. If the Jewish tradition could just â??assignâ? the rivers as the rivers of Eden, what stopped others?

[baddonkey]

Why is the earth perfectly aligned with the Sun? I don't know, that's just the way God made it. He has reasons that we don't understand.

Taking unorganized matter is just one possible scenario.

He sure went to a lot of trouble to organize all the fossils chronologically within the geologic strata then!

[BCSpace]

He sure went to a lot of trouble to organize all the fossils chronologically within the geologic strata then!

The unstated question here is did God go through a lot of trouble to deceive us or are they simply clues for us to discover and unravel?

Considering certain verses in the D&C, I'd say it's the latter.

[BCSpace]

Fodder for a local Flood argument?

Oooooooooo! Interesting thought bcspace........

Jubilees is considered canonical by the Ethiopian Orthodox church (Book of Division). Any other sources for all the descendants of Adam in a very localized area before being wiped out by the Flood?

[maupayman]

This thread has not really gone the direction I had hoped for as yet, I was hoping to talk more about the DNA research and the tracing of the family tree of man. Anyone have any insight into this research and the implications on the biblical timeline for man's creation and Joseph's location of Eden in present day America?

Billy, I appreciate your insight, however, the DNA research I referenced in the OP creates just as many problems for the Biblical narrative of creation as it does for Eden being in Missouri.

In the creation it talks of an organized matter that was used and organized to create the earth. Who's to say that this unorganized matter didn't contain these remains?

I suppose, once again, anything is possible. The evidence I have seen seems to indicate otherwise. Stratification and human remains seem to be consistent with the findings of the DNA lineage research from the video i referenced in the OP. If God indeed used unorganized matter and put it together to make the earth, the odds that the fossils would line up in an organized fashion that parallels the DNA research is a pretty outrageous proposition.

We need to start with the milk of doctrine before we get into the meat. We need to stay close to the trunk of the tree instead of getting too far onto the branches, cause that's when we fall.

This sounds like a nice way of saying we shouldn't look at anything we don't know the answer to, or that contradicts my currently held belief. To me, that sounds like a pretty pathetic way of looking at the world.

[Cadizita]

This thread has not really gone the direction I had hoped for as yet, I was hoping to talk more about the DNA research and the tracing of the family tree of man. Anyone have any insight into this research and the implications on the biblical timeline for man's creation and Joseph's location of Eden in present day America?

Billy, I appreciate your insight, however, the DNA research I referenced in the OP creates just as many problems for the Biblical narrative of creation as it does for Eden being in Missouri.

I suppose, once again, anything is possible. The evidence I have seen seems to indicate otherwise. Stratification and human remains seem to be consistent with the findings of the DNA lineage research from the video i referenced in the OP. If God indeed used unorganized matter and put it together to make the earth, the odds that the fossils would line up in an organized fashion that parallels the DNA research is a pretty outrageous proposition.

This sounds like a nice way of saying we shouldn't look at anything we don't know the answer to, or that contradicts my currently held belief. To me, that sounds like a pretty pathetic way of looking at the world.

I have a question for you? Why do you care? Honestly, the only reason why a person would keep caring after leaving the church would be the same reason why they left it: Pride. Pride gets in the way of alot of things. First, it can't let people see that there may be more to life than they understand, and when they do end up leaving, their ego can't handle that their family and friends think they've gone wacko and they just can't leave it alone.

[maupayman]

Hey there Eva, I didn't realise you had changed your avatar. I'm surprised you still post here. What does Eunoia mean?

I don't see why you need to be so angry in your post. As I stated in the OP, I watched a movie which got me thinking about this subject. I am unaware of alternative opinions on the DNA research, which can be seen in the movie I linked in the OP and thought there may be some people on this site who would have some insight. There are a lot of people here that are far more educated in these matters than I.

I have a question for you? Why do you care?

Because I am interested in this research and its implications for the origins of mankind.

Honestly, the only reason why a person would keep caring after leaving the church would be the same reason why they left it: Pride. Pride gets in the way of alot of things. First, it can't let people see that there may be more to life than they understand, and when they do end up leaving, their ego can't handle that their family and friends think they've gone wacko and they just can't leave it alone.

Given the fact I have not posted on any LDS related site in probably close to 7 months, I don't think its fair to say that my ego can't handle my family and friends thinking i've gone wacko. Believe me, i've moved on; I thought there may be some people that knew of some good references on the DNA studies of mankinds lineage. This is not part of some vendetta against mormonism.

Pride gets in the way of alot of things.

Indeed, I think it may be getting in the way of your understanding of my motives. Eva, you are a grown woman and are entitled to your opinions, which you clearly have, of my motives. I just think you are way off in your supspicions of me and me neverending hatred for the LDS church. In my posts, I have maintained that many things are possible in the understanding of this subject, yet the evidence I am aware of seems to indicate that human life originated in Africa, left Africa roughly 50,000 years ago, spread throughout Eurasia and Australia and eventually made its way into the Americas roughly 15,000 years ago. This has implications for many beliefs and ideas about the origins of life, for instance we would all essentially be African. If you know of additional evidence regarding this matter, please share. Thats why I started the thread.

[maupayman]

Is anyone aware of any research that disputes the findings of the Y chromosome lineage study? I would be interested to gain some additional perspectives on this matter.

[maxrep12]

In conclusion, where there is missing evidence it's best not to make a judgement at all

Is it fair to say that since Joseph gave us an improper location for the Hill Cumorah, in upstate NY, that he likey gave a misguided opinion of the where abouts of the garden of Eden?

[thesometimesaint]

maxrep12:

One does not necessarily follow the other. It is a non sequitur

[Cold Steel]

One reason discussions like this go nowhere is that the entire Adam and Eve thing is the weakest link in a Christian's armor. Geology teaches us that the Earth is millions of years old and that man is a product of thousands of generations. We didn't step out of a garden, they say, we stepped out of the sea. Whether the garden was in present-day Independence, or in Africa, makes little difference.

How long did Adam live? Well, if we believe the scriptures it was well over 900 years. The pre-flood generations were much more long lived than the generations now (thankfully). Whether the fossil record would support that is dubious at best. In present day man, our bodies simply aren't designed to live that long. Our teeth fall out and they don't renew. In short, proving there was a garden would, itself, be a monumental achievement. But for evangelicals to laugh at Mormons for believing it was near present-day Independence, Missouri, is irony indeed. Even Bill Maher makes fun of them, pointing out that believing it's in North America is no more or less ridiculous than believing it was anywhere else.

Still, it's evident that Jesus believed in Adam and Eve, and he believed in the garden. The LDS position that they were brought there makes much more sense than making man from mud pies. But how all of this will work out satisfactorily in the end will be amazing to see.

[maxrep12]

maxrep12:

One does not necessarily follow the other. It is a non sequitur

Had battle remnants from millions of Nephite / Lamanite warriors been found on or around Hill Cumorah, then I would give Joseph every benefit in his Garden of Eden claim. I would even go so far as to introduce theories that strain at ones sensibilities, in an effort to allow Jackson County to some how align itself with Eden.

Since this is not the case, fighting for the Jackson County/ Garden of Eden placement feels sort of desperate. Do you see how this seems desperate?

[thesometimesaint]

maxrep12:

The non sequitur is in that I can be wrong about any number of things, and still be right about some things.

[LeSellers]

Is it fair to say that since Joseph gave us an improper location for the Hill Cumorah, in upstate NY, that he likey gave a misguided opinion of the where abouts of the garden of Eden?

CFR

I've never seen where Joseph gave us any location for the Hill Cumorah (the one in the Book of Mormon, the one in upstate New York was fist named "Cumorah" by Oliver Cowdery, not Joseph), so his supposedly giving an "improper" one is impossible.

So, again, CFR.

Lehi

[Luigi]

What do you guys think, both faithful and sceptical alike?

Thanks all.

For me this is one of the many problems with Mormonism and religion in general. The story of human origins goes against both the Genesis account and even more blaringly against the outline of events in Mormon scriptures and expounded upon by Joseph Smith. A few other problems with squaring some things taught by Mormon scripture or leaders with the early timeline of human existence while we're on the topic:

1. Genetic evidence suggests there was a biological Adam and Eve (ie one ancestral female and one ancestral male of all humans) but they did not live at the same time. The ancestral male of all humans lived approximately 60,000 years ago while the female lived around 200,000 years ago.

2. Origin of differing skin colors. While Mormon scriptures and teachings of LDS prophets suggests that black skin was given to Cain and Ham and later to the Lamanites and thus that black skin posdated white skin the evidence is that all our ancestors were black and that white skin evolved in order to increase Vitamin D production in the skin in northern climates.

3. The Bible suggests, and Joseph Smith verified as I understand, that Adam lived at around 4,000 B.C.. I also understand that CES material still has this date on their Old Testament Timelines. Many remains of humans have been discovered which pre-date 4,000 B.C.

[cinepro]

maxrep12:

The non sequitur is in that I can be wrong about any number of things, and still be right about some things.

You would be right if the "any number of things" were unrelated.

But if the question is "Could Joseph Smith reliably identify the location of ancient events?", then every identification he attempted to make would be an important data point in evaluating the question. Especially if it were falsifiable (which, apparently, the location of the Hill Cumorah is).

[maxrep12]

CFR

I've never seen where Joseph gave us any location for the Hill Cumorah (the one in the Book of Mormon, the one in upstate New York was fist named "Cumorah" by Oliver Cowdery, not Joseph), so his supposedly giving an "improper" one is impossible.

So, again, CFR.

Lehi

"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."

"It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

"Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history...." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)

"In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation .

[Editor's Note: About 20 short paragraphs later this speaker says the following]

"This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites , flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’" (Talk given by President Marion G. Romney in General Conference, October 4, 1975, Ensign Nov. 1975 pg. 35)

[maupayman]

1. Genetic evidence suggests there was a biological Adam and Eve (ie one ancestral female and one ancestral male of all humans) but they did not live at the same time. The ancestral male of all humans lived approximately 60,000 years ago while the female lived around 200,000 years ago.

Finally! I was curious about this, as it was mentioned in the movie. Luigi, how is it that they can trace the timeline in this way? I am not that familiar with the genetic methods and evidence utilized in this study. Do you know of any references where I might learn more about how this process works? Are there any problems with these methods? I would appreciate any insight you may have. Luigi you should change your avatar to a picture of Luigi from Nintendo