consiglieri Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 I was reading a book of New Testament Apocrypha last night called The Questions of Bartholomew, which purports to contain teachings of the risen Jesus in response to certain questions put to him by the apostle Bartholomew.At one point, I was struck that it seemed the apocryphal text was virtually quoting the Book of Mormon:29. And Bartholomew said to him: Lord, what sacrifice is offered in paradise? Jesus answered: That souls of the righteous, when they leave the body, go to paradise, and unless I am present there they cannot enter.Most here on the board with even a passing knowledge of the Book of Mormon may be put in mind of a similar quote from Alma:Alma 40:11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrectionâ??Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. 12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.Now I will not go so far as to say this is a bull's-eye. This is only one verse from an apocryphal book which is generally dated to the 3rd century A.D.What I will say is that, when I read it, I sensed a "familiar spirit." All the Best!--Consiglieri
Scottie Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 I'm sure it never occured to you that the BoM might be quoting the Apocrypha?? Although I'd be VERY hard pressed to call this a "quote". It is a mildy similar concept that uses a couple of the same words. And it's not a very unique concept at that. Righteous souls will go to paradise. WOW!! Who could have possibly thought of that???
consiglieri Posted October 8, 2008 Author Posted October 8, 2008 I'm sure it never occured to you that the BoM might be quoting the Apocrypha?? Although I'd be VERY hard pressed to call this a "quote". It is a mildy similar concept that uses a couple of the same words. And it's not a very unique concept at that. Righteous souls will go to paradise. WOW!! Who could have possibly thought of that???I hear what you're saying, Scottie, and good morning to you, by the way!While we might think of it as hardly unique, it should be noted at least in passing that this particular concept is sufficiently unusual to have not found its way into a rather lengthy Bible dealing pretty much exclusively with this kind of stuff.And actually, it did occur to me that the Book of Mormon might be quoting the Apocrypha, but considering that we are talking about The Questions of Bartholomew here, as opposed to Susannah and the Elders, I think either option is equally unlikely. All the Best!--Consiglieri
Aquilifer Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 Chalk it up to another fruitful excursion to the Palmyra library.
Scottie Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 Chalk it up to another fruitful excursion to the Palmyra library. IIRC, Joseph was well versed in the Apocrypha.
The Nehor Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 This is not part of the Apocrypha you'd find in some Bibles in New England (or today). You'd have to go hunting.
Aquilifer Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 IIRC, Joseph was well versed in the Apocrypha.Before or after the publication of the BOM?
Scottie Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 I hear what you're saying, Scottie, and good morning to you, by the way!I'm still mourning the loss of my Angels, but I'm surviving......somehow.... While we might think of it as hardly unique, it should be noted at least in passing that this particular concept is sufficiently unusual to have not found its way into a rather lengthy Bible dealing pretty much exclusively with this kind of stuff.I'm curious. It's pretty well known, and was in JS day as well, that good souls will go to a paradisaical heaven, and bad souls will go to hell. Where does this come from if not the Bible? Was this just something taught and passed on from generation to generation without scriptural support?And actually, it did occur to me that the Book of Mormon might be quoting the Apocrypha, but considering that we are talking about The Questions of Bartholomew here, as opposed to Susannah and the Elders, I think either option is equally unlikely. And, as I stated earlier, calling this an exact quote is a HUGE stretch. If you have to pick out the word souls in the previous verse and then somehow mish-mash them together to make it appear as a direct quote, it really isn't.Before or after the publication of the BOM?I'm not sure. But, as I said before, you'd have to stretch REEEEALLY hard to believe that this was copied from the Apocrypha.
Aquilifer Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 I'm not sure. But, as I said before, you'd have to stretch REEEEALLY hard to believe that this was copied from the Apocrypha.True. I'm certainly not declaring victory for my side on this one.
rpn Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 What is most interesting is how this appears to be a pretty universal question.
Jason Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 And, as I stated earlier, calling this an exact quote is a HUGE stretch. If you have to pick out the word souls in the previous verse and then somehow mish-mash them together to make it appear as a direct quote, it really isn't.You should probably keep in mind that both quotes are independent translations (from different languages, no less - Reformed Egyptian for the BoM, Greek or Latin for The Questions of Bartholomew), so they are unlikely to exactly match each other word-for-word even if they were originally direct quotes of each other.
The Nehor Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 I'm curious. It's pretty well known, and was in JS day as well, that good souls will go to a paradisaical heaven, and bad souls will go to hell. Where does this come from if not the Bible? Was this just something taught and passed on from generation to generation without scriptural support?I'm genuinely curious if this is what was believed. I think the heathen got a little less slack then.I think this teaching comes from the exaggeration of some parts of the Bible and ignoring others. This is not unique to our time period. I think the case is more critical in our time period as biblical literacy is at a pathetic low. Most people have an idea of Christ's life that comes from a few stories heard as a kid, a documentary or two, and an odd consensus image. This has made him into a caricature of what the records say in the same way as Gandhi has.I can't count how many times I've been told I'm acting unChristlike when I'm doing something he in fact DID.I think general illiteracy about Christianity has led to the same mistake being made about Christian doctrine. It is not about becoming good so you get some reward. It's about using the divine power Christ offers to transform into a new kind of person.
consiglieri Posted October 8, 2008 Author Posted October 8, 2008 I'm curious. It's pretty well known, and was in JS day as well, that good souls will go to a paradisaical heaven, and bad souls will go to hell. Where does this come from if not the Bible? Was this just something taught and passed on from generation to generation without scriptural support?Whereas most people would think the Bible talks about this frequently and plainly, the remarkable fact is that the Bible has precious little to say about the state of the soul between death and the resurrection; so much is this this the case that some Bible-believing Christians such as Jehovah's Witnesses can sincerely believe the Bible teaches no existence whatsoever between death and the resurrection.Sorry about your Angels, man!All the Best!--Consiglieri
Scottie Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 The BoM talks about spirit paradise, but does it mention spirit prison anywhere? Does the Apocrypha?
consiglieri Posted October 8, 2008 Author Posted October 8, 2008 The BoM talks about spirit paradise, but does it mention spirit prison anywhere? Does the Apocrypha?You know, I have read quite a bit of apocryphal literature, but certainly not all.Having said that, I find it remarkable that I have not encountered in any of my apocryphal readings another passage like the one above; just like there is none such in the Bible itself.This makes me think, that contrary to our expectations that this type of teaching would be expressed frequently, it surprisingly was not.Which of course tends to make me more surprised to find it in both the Book of Mormon and the Questions of Bartholomew.All the Best!--ConsiglieriAnd in answer to your question, 1 Peter 3:19 speaks of the spirits in prison, as does Moses, but I do not know about the Book of Mormon.
bluebell Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 Whereas most people would think the Bible talks about this frequently and plainly, the remarkable fact is that the Bible has precious little to say about the state of the soul between death and the resurrection; so much is this this the case that some Bible-believing Christians such as Jehovah's Witnesses can sincerely believe the Bible teaches no existence whatsoever between death and the resurrection.As i understand it, seventh day adventists use the bible to support their belief that our souls sleep in the grave after death and before the judgement as well.
Jason Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 The BoM talks about spirit paradise, but does it mention spirit prison anywhere? Does the Apocrypha?2 Nephi 9:12 speaks of hell yielding up its captive spirits, just before it speaks of paradise also yielding up its spirits for the resurrection.Alma 40 mentions spirit prison, calling it "outer darkness". It's clear from the text that it is spirit prison being referred to though, not the final destination of the Sons of Perdition.I don't know the Apocrypha well enough to say if it mentions spirit prison anywhere, but I do know that Jesus' descent to hell was a popular subject of many Apocryphal texts, including The Questions of Bartholomew.
Cold Steel Posted October 8, 2008 Posted October 8, 2008 I'm willing to give Joseph Smith a lot, but this, I think, is stretching it a bit. What do we learn from the Bartholomew text? That the spirits of the righteous go to a place called "paradise," and unless Jesus is there, the spirits cannot enter. We also know from Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." Thus the spirits of the righteous go to paradise, a place of rest. Hugh Nibley quotes Origen as saying: "After death, I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of teaching, a school of the spirits, in which everything they saw on Earth will be made clear to them. Those who were pure in heart will progress more rapidly, reaching the kingdom of heaven by definite steps or degrees." (Old Testament and Related Studies, edited by John W. Welch, Gary P. Gillum, and Don E. Norton, p.150-151)Nibley also notes: "In Origen's universe there are more exalted beings who leave the less exalted beings further and further behind. He compares their advancements to a series of examinations and makes much of the three degrees of gloryâ??'three celestial levels, like the sun, the moon, and the stars.'"Also: "For Origen, according to Father Danielou, evil is nothing else than refusal to accept progress. This recalls a statement from the Pistis Sophia that hell is what lies in the opposite direction from that of progress, a state of inert and helpless being. Hell is not lively; it is the opposite of action, energy, purpose, and motion. The devil has no real purpose; all he is trying to do is thwart someone else's purpose. He has no principle of action within himself. He is apolyon, the destroyer; satan or diabolos, the accuser."What many Bible believing Christians fail to understand is that "hell" is simply the place of departed spirits, period. In today's parlance it is a place for the wicked, while paradise is the godly counterpart. This distinction, as I understand it, was not always made anciently. Today we make the distinction between Jehovah and Eloheim, hell and paradise, but these distinctions didn't always apply. Bartholomew's comment in your reference shows that he was making the same sort of distinction that Alma was making: a good place for departed spirits and a bad place. But one could have inferred such from Christ's statement to the thief. Still, it was an area where Joseph Smith could have easily dropped the ball. Is it significant enough to give the prophet a Brownie point? I don't think so, as this distinction is a popular one throughout all Christianity. The Jews, as far as I know, still don't make a distinction.
consiglieri Posted October 8, 2008 Author Posted October 8, 2008 I don't know the Apocrypha well enough to say if it mentions spirit prison anywhere, but I do know that Jesus' descent to hell was a popular subject of many Apocryphal texts, including The Questions of Bartholomew.And quite famously The Gospel of Nicodemus.The Book(s) of Enoch have a lot to say about the spirits in prison; which is a nice parallel to the PGP Enoch.All the Best!--Consiglieri
consiglieri Posted October 8, 2008 Author Posted October 8, 2008 I'm willing to give Joseph Smith a lot, but this, I think, is stretching it a bit.And just so you know, I titled the thread with a bit of hyperbole to try to increase interest. (I have been known to do that before.)My true feelings are expressed in the OP itself, where I said it struck me as having a "familiar spirit."Obviously, I do not really think the Questions of Bartholomew was actually quoting the Book of Mormon or the other way round.But thanks to the questions raised by Scottie, it strikes me that these twin similar sentiments are far from common in the extant relevant literature. All the Best!--Consiglieri
MormonMason Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 IIRC, Joseph was well versed in the Apocrypha.No, he wasn't all that well-versed. Besides, this particular book is not part of the Apocrypha Joseph Smith knew. Here are the books in that collection:1 Esdras (also called 3 Ezra)2 Esdras (also called 4 Ezra)TobitJudithThe Rest of EstherWisdom of SolomonEcclesiasticusBaruch with the Epistle of JeremiahThe Song of the Three Holy ChildrenThe Story of SusannaThe Idol Bel and the DragonThe Prayer of Manasseh1 Maccabees2 MaccabeesJoseph Smith came to become aware of the so-called Book of Jasher after the late 1830s but this also was not a source for him.
Rommelator Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 Isn't the Questions of Bartholomew a Gnostic text? One of which was discovered at Nag Hammadi? If so, then we can safely say that Joseph Smith did not know about it... unless you give credence to the Joseph Smith-time-traveling-to-the-1940's theory to explain this.
MormonMason Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 Isn't the Questions of Bartholomew a Gnostic text? One of which was discovered at Nag Hammadi? If so, then we can safely say that Joseph Smith did not know about it... unless you give credence to the Joseph Smith-time-traveling-to-the-1940's theory to explain this. If it is the one I am thinking of, it is not a Gnostic document. It is otherwise known as the Gospel of Bartholomew in its entirety.Note: Just checked...it is the one I am thinking of.... If you want to read an English translation, see Willis Barnstone's The Other Bible or volume 1 of Wilson's New Testament Apocrypha.
Rommelator Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 If it is the one I am thinking of, it is not a Gnostic document. It is otherwise known as the Gospel of Bartholomew in its entirety.Note: Just checked...it is the one I am thinking of.... If you want to read an English translation, see Willis Barnstone's The Other Bible or volume 1 of Wilson's New Testament Apocrypha.Oh man, talk about serendipity. The other day I was at the SLC downtown library's used book sale and saw this book. I debated whether or not I wanted to get it, since I could not think of how I would need it immediately. (That and the fact that I already have published collections of the Nag Hammadi texts and DSS.) However, since it was only a couple of bucks and my motto is that you can never have too many books, I picked it up!Ha! Looks like I made the right decision to get the book!
MormonMason Posted October 20, 2008 Posted October 20, 2008 Oh man, talk about serendipity. The other day I was at the SLC downtown library's used book sale and saw this book. I debated whether or not I wanted to get it, since I could not think of how I would need it immediately. (That and the fact that I already have published collections of the Nag Hammadi texts and DSS.) However, since it was only a couple of bucks and my motto is that you can never have too many books, I picked it up!Ha! Looks like I made the right decision to get the book! Lucky-lucky you! By the way, the earliest English translation into English of this apocryphal text was 1963. I think that is a bit late for Joseph Smith to have gotten his hands on it or set his eyes on it.
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