Angels

[MatthewG]

Where if anywhere, does it describe in the Bible, the nature of angels? Does it? Where are Protestants/Evangelicals getting the notion that angels are separate beings different than Man, created by God? It's part of an ongoing discussion I am having on another board (Have a Nice Day thread).

Just curious, prior to having this discussion, I had no idea people thought that angels where something other than humans.

[selek]

Where if anywhere, does it describe in the Bible, the nature of angels? Does it? Where are Protestants/Evangelicals getting the notion that angels are separate beings different than Man, created by God? It's part of an ongoing discussion I am having on another board (Have a Nice Day thread).

Just curious, prior to having this discussion, I had no idea people thought that angels where something other than humans.

It's all Michaelangelo's fault.

When he started painting wings on cherubs, people came to the startling realization that since angels have wings and they don't- angels must be something other than human or God.

[MatthewG]

It's all Michaelangelo's fault.

When he started painting wings on cherubs, people came to the startling realization that since angels have wings and they don't- angels must be something other than human or God.

So there is nothing in the bible describing or talking about their physical nature, or anything remotely similar that someone could take out of context?

[The Nehor]

In non-LDS Christianity angels are ill-defined. This is not really a weakness as such. It's simply not needed.

Some believe humans become angels.

Some believe angels are pure intelligences (C.S. Lewis).

I've heard that they are not actually independent beings but something more like an eidolon, a construct temporarily used by God.

The guardian angel idea is more recent.

In the old texts there is a large hierarchy or angels and archangels and they had domains of power.

In essence, a Christian can believe what they choose to believe without violating scripture or creed.

[MatthewG]

In essence, a Christian can believe what they choose to believe without violating scripture or creed.

Sounds familiar and consist with other topics.

[The Nehor]

Sounds familiar and consist with other topics.

Well, it's true and consistent with most religions. The LDS faith has many concepts that I can choose to interpret in different ways. I think of how many of our writers have written a story of eons out of a few verses describing us as intelligences when really we have no idea how that works or those who believe the sacrament actually has power to alter the body for the better (or worse) against those who see it as symbolism or the debate between those who describe all sinful impulses to devils and those who mostly ascribe them to our own nature as fallen beings.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Don't have time to flesh it out, but I recommend looking towards Zorastrianism for some of the origens on the nature of angels. I have a great book called "Angels: A-Z", but can't get to it right now.

[saemo]

Catholics

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth

Hebrews 1

13 But to which of the angels has he ever said: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool"?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent to serve, for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

Psalms 148

1 Hallelujah! Praise the LORD from the heavens; give praise in the heights.

2 Praise him, all you angels; give praise, all you hosts.

3 Praise him, sun and moon; give praise, all shining stars.

4 Praise him, highest heavens, you waters above the heavens.

5 Let them all praise the LORD'S name; for the LORD commanded and they were created,

6 Assigned them duties forever, gave them tasks that will never change.

Colossians 1

16 For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.(Catholics interpret the description of "thrones or dominions or principalities or powers" as describing orders of angels)

Seraphim, the highest servants of God - seen in the vision of Isaiah (6), guarding the throne of God, and proclaiming His glory. Described as having 6 wings, 2 to bear them up, 2 to cover their faces and 2 to cover their feet.

Cherubim - they carry or veil God, they guarded Paradise from Adam and Eve after the fall, seen in the vision of Exekial, guarded the ark of the covenant -- cherubim are not described anywhere in the Bible, other than being winged.

In OT usage they are described as: two large carved figures that were set to guard the Holy of Holies in the Temple of Solomon, they were embroidered on the veil of the tabernacle, engraved in wood and metal (the interior and exterior wood panel of the temple was covered in these engravings).

It is believed that cherubim were very prominent, found in figures, carving, embroideries, but what these carving represented, what they looked liked, has been lost.

As to Guardian Angels

Matthew 18:10 See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my heavenly Father.

1 Kings 19:

5 He lay down and fell asleep under the broom tree, but then an angel touched him and ordered him to get up and eat.

6 He looked and there at his head was a hearth cake and a jug of water. After he ate and drank, he lay down again,

7 but the angel of the LORD came back a second time, touched him, and ordered, "Get up and eat, else the journey will be too long for you!"

Tobit 12:

12 I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead.

13 When you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner in order to go and bury the dead,

14 I was sent to put you to the test. At the same time, however, God commissioned me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah.

15 I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord."

[saemo]

OK, blueadept brought up a good point in a PM to me.

We (Catholics) see the word angel (a messenger, one who is sent) used to describe the hosts of heaven. Which, is what I covered in my first response. Now, to other usages of the word.

The Bible sometimes calls angels, "gods", which we understand as describing their nature: divine nature (not GOD) and immortal.

Also, the verse that comes up around here often and every conversation I've ever had with a Mormon is the verse where Jesus describes us as not being married or being given in marriage but become as angels.

We understand this as describing the beatific vision, or theosis, where we are One with God (not gods), partaking of His divine nature and also immortal.

Also, the Bible names men as angels, which we see in terms of a human who has been sent as a messenger by God, for God. But such a person is not immortal, and is not the created being that we call Angels.

[MormonMason]

...

We understand this as describing the beatific vision, or theosis, where we are One with God (not gods), partaking of His divine nature and also immortal.

...

And, yet, the Catechism, the Liturgy, and the writings of the Fathers all use the terms gods or even Gods and God to describe what we become as a result of this union. Hmmm...

[saemo]

And, yet, the Catechism, the Liturgy, and the writings of the Fathers all use the terms gods or even Gods and God to describe what we become as a result of this union. Hmmm...

Yet, the Catechism, the Liturgy and the writings of the Fathers never conive "gods" to mean "eternal progression". Especially regarding God Himself. That is a Mormon invention.

[MormonMason]

Yet, the Catechism, the Liturgy and the writings of the Fathers never conive "gods" to mean "eternal progression". Especially regarding God Himself. That is a Mormon invention.

Not entirely true. In the case of Irenaeus (and a couple others whose names I do not recall at the moment), he very much held an idea of eternal progression ("a long course of ages") and receiving the faculties of the Uncreated and taking upon them eternal existence bestowed upon them by God, being first a man and afterward being God.

If you are referring to our view of God the Father, you are mostly right except for the old Armenian texts that very much teach an idea very close to the LDS view concerning the Father. You can read one of such quotes in a paper entitled "I Have Said, 'Ye are Gods'" somewhere on the FAIR site.

But, please remember that the doctrine of eternal progression came first amongst the Mormons, followed by the next logical step, e.g., the idea that the Father himself once did as Jesus did and was once as man is.

[Jason]

So, the long and the short of it is that the typical Christian conception of "angels" is based mostly on extra-biblical traditions and speculation.

[3DOP]

I gotta get home early if I want to give the Catholic answer to a question anymore. Hebrews tells what an angel is. Simple. Good job. Evangelicals don't necessarily go that way though Matthew. Great Catholic answers everywhere I look around here. Keep it up. I guess I can go play a video game. Hehe.

[T-Shirt]

Cherubim - they carry or veil God, they guarded Paradise from Adam and Eve after the fall, seen in the vision of Exekial, guarded the ark of the covenant -- cherubim are not described anywhere in the Bible, other than being winged.

Humans are, also, described as having wings:

Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Best,

T-Shirt

[Lachoneus]

Humans are, also, described as having wings:

Including Jesus; Malachi 4:2 - "2

[johnny]

MatthewG

Where if anywhere, does it describe in the Bible, the nature of angels? Does it

Hebrews 2 talks about "the nature of angels", the pre-incarnate Christ did not take on him "the nature of angels", he partake of "flesh and blood". I would emphasize that means the pre-incarnate Christ was not an angel before the incarnation like the Mormon Church teaches.

• Heb.2 ([16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. )
  

Where are Protestants/Evangelicals getting the notion that angels are separate beings different than Man, created by God?

The LORD (Jehovah) commanded and angels were created, see verses below

• Pss.148 ([1] Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. [2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. [5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.)
  
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• Neh.9 (. [6] Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee. )
  

Just curious, prior to having this discussion, I had no idea people thought that angels where something other than humans.

Catholics believe that angels are different than men (327), and that all angels were created through Christ (331).

• 327 God "from the beginning of time made at once (simul) out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal, that is, the angelic and the earthly, and then (deinde) the human creature, who as it were shares in both orders, being composed of spirit and body"
  
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• 331 Christ is the center of the angelic world. They are his angels: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him" [Mt 25:31]. They belong to him because they were created through and for him [Col 1:16].
  

[johnny]

MormonMason

Not entirely true. In the case of Irenaeus (and a couple others whose names I do not recall at the moment), he very much held an idea of eternal progression ("a long course of ages") and receiving the faculties of the Uncreated and taking upon them eternal existence bestowed upon them by God, being first a man and afterward being God.

Irenaeus clearly did not teach the Mormon doctrine of eternal progression.

Irenaeus taught:

- angels were created out of nothing

- angels were created by a command, by his Word (the Son of God)

- angels did not form men, they do not have the power

• Irenaeus "For, to attribute the substance of created things to the power and will of Him who is God of all, is worthy both of credit and acceptance. It is also agreeable [to reason], and there may be well said regarding such a belief, that 'the things which are impossible with men are possible with God.' While men, indeed, cannot make anything out of nothing, but only out of matter already existing, yet God is in this point proeminently superior to men, that He Himself called into being the substance of His creation, when previously it had no existence." Against Heresies,2,10:4(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:370
  
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• Irenaeus "For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]). "Nor is he moved by anyone; rather, freely and by his Word he made all things. For he alone is God, he alone is Lord, he alone is Creator, he alone is Father, he alone contains all and commands all to exist" (ibid., 2:1:1). "Of his own accord and by his own power he made all things and arranged and perfected them; and his will is the substance of all things. He alone, then, is found to be God; he alone is omnipotent, who made all things; he alone is Father, who founded and formed all things, visible and invisible, sensible and insensate, heavenly and earthly, by the Word of his power. And he has fitted and arranged all things by his wisdom; and while he comprehends all, he can be comprehended by none. He is himself the designer, himself the builder, himself the inventor, himself the maker, himself the Lord of all" (ibid., 2:30:9).
  
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• Irenaeus "It was not angels, therefore, who made us nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor anyone else. . . . For God did not stand in need of these in order to accomplish what he had himself determined with himself beforehand should be done, as if he did not possess his own hands. For with him [the Father] were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, he made all things, to whom also he speaks, saying, â??Let us make man in our image and likenessâ?? [Gen. 1:26]" (Against Heresies 4:20:1 [A.D. 189].
  

[The Nehor]

Hebrews 2 talks about "the nature of angels", the pre-incarnate Christ did not take on him "the nature of angels", he partake of "flesh and blood". I would emphasize that means the pre-incarnate Christ was not an angel before the incarnation like the Mormon Church teaches.

• Heb.2 ([16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. )
  

Laying aside that I would not characterize the PreMortal Christ as an angel I do not think this scripture supports saying even that. I think it is a statement that when Christ came he came not as an angel but as a member of the House of Israel. To take upon yourself a nature suggests that you had a different nature beforehand. I think we would both call that nature God but differ on specifics.

[MatthewG]

So the bible says angels were created beings, and so are we. Still nothing of substance to differentiate angels from humans other than they are commanded by God.

[sean0scott]

The thing that bugs me about The Angels is they can't for the life of them beat the Red Sox in the playoffs. Criminitly...

[johnny]

MatthewG

So the bible says angels were created beings, and so are we. Still nothing of substance to differentiate angels from humans other than they are commanded by God

The difference is that:

- when all the angels were created with a command they are only spirit

- when a man is created they are spirit and body, the LORD forms the spirit of man within him (Zech 12:1).

• Zech.12 ([1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.)
  

[Hoops22]

The thing that bugs me about The Angels is they can't for the life of them beat the Red Sox in the playoffs. Criminitly...

Finally, someone willing to discuss something REALLY important.

[MatthewG]

MatthewG

The difference is that:

- when all the angels were created with a command they are only spirit

- when a man is created they are spirit and body, the LORD forms the spirit of man within him (Zech 12:1).

• Zech.12 ([1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.)
  

Where does it say they are spirit ONLY?

[johnny]

MatthewG

Where does it say they are spirit ONLY?

It does not say "spirit ONLY" ... do you think the angel Satan is "spirit ONLY"?