Massacre At Mountain Meadows

[emeliza]

And thus we see the practical consequences of joining the SSCE instead of the UMW....

By their fruits you shall know them, and all that...

And if you are in both, you get a lot of fruits....and nuts (but I love you SSCE guys).

Sorry for derailing. I would like to know people's relatives though, it would be cool to see if they are listed in the book.

[selek]

And if you are in both, you get a lot of fruits....and nuts (but I love you SSCE guys).

Yeah.......but stay away from the egg salad!

Okay, I'm going to bow out before I derail this thread right over the embankment and into the ravine beyond!

[Scott Lloyd]

And if you are in both, you get a lot of fruits....and nuts (but I love you SSCE guys).

Sorry for derailing. I would like to know people's relatives though, it would be cool to see if they are listed in the book.

That goes for descendants of the victims, too. Victims are also listed in the book.

[katherine the great]

Would you care to disclose their names? The book has an appendix listing militia members involved (or allegedly involved). I could look up the names and tell you what it has to say about them.

A good many, it seems, thought they were going to help bury the dead, not realizing that they would be called upon to produce the dead. Still, were I in that situation, I prefer to think I would have told the militia authorities to be damned, and left the scene.

My relatives were the Mangums and the Adairs. There's no doubt that the Iron county branch of the family participated in the massacre, but my direct ancestors were in Washington county. They had only been in Southern Utah for five months at the time of the attack and my ggrandfather (Joseph Adair) died in April of 1858. I have no idea whether or not he was actually at the attack although I do know he belonged to the Washington militia (as I believe all adult males did.)

" Still, were I in that situation, I prefer to think I would have told the militia authorities to be damned, and left the scene."

I've read that there were a few who did just that, but I haven't found any that actually mention any names. I like to think that my ggrandfather did not participate, but I really don't know. I haven't even been able to find out how he died. Records are very scarce from Washington county before 1860.

[katherine the great]

If it's the alleged cover-up you're talking about, you'll have to wait for volume 2.

I was actually just remarking on where my mind is right now on the massacre. I've read Juanita Brook's book, Will Bagley's book and scrolled through Sally Denton's (garbage imo.) I've also read several internet sources on the investigation and trials, etc. With everything I've read, including family lore, at this point, I believe that the church participated in a major cover up which started with the instigators and spread out from there. I reserve the right to change my mind after further study.

[Calm]

Oh just part-time. I think they thought I was attacking the Church or something. I was saying how it was basically just rumors about the poisoning of the cattle/water and such and the wife sort of jumped on me saying that the Seminary manual was pretty clear that it all actually happened and the Fancher party instigated some of it (though they didn't deserve what happened to them). I haven't read the seminary manual so I couldn't really say anything to that.

How long ago was this? I don't remember even seeing the MMM in the seminary manual. It is in the institute manual. I wonder if this part is what she is talking about, it certainly doesn't seem to go to the extremes she's claiming.

About this same time the Fancher Trainâ??an emigrant company composed

of several families from Arkansas and a group of horsemen who called

themselves the Missouri Wildcatsâ??made its way through central Utah. They

were taking the southern route to California because of the lateness of the

season.11 Since Utah was under martial law, the party was unable to buy grain

and supplies. Some of the travelers, however, pilfered from local farmers.

Some also boasted about participating in the Haunâ??s Mill Massacre, the

murder of Joseph Smith, and other mob actions against the Mormons. A few

local settlers connected the group from Arkansas with the recent brutal

murder of Elder Parley P. Pratt in that state. Some of the Saints thought this

party was a scouting or reconnoitering party in advance of the federal army.12

[katherine the great]

How long ago was this? I don't remember even seeing the MMM in the seminary manual. It is in the institute manual. I wonder if this part is what she is talking about, it certainly doesn't seem to go to the extremes she's claiming.

I can't seem to quote the quote. The part I would object to is where it stated that some members of the group bragged about being at Haun's Mill or at the death of Joseph Smith as if it were a fact. These people most likely didn't even know anything about Haun's Mill. I haven't seen ANY evidence that this really happened. I've seen much more evidence that this was part of the Southern Utah spin manufactured to justify the massacre.

[Scott Lloyd]

My relatives were the Mangums and the Adairs. There's no doubt that the Iron county branch of the family participated in the massacre, but my direct ancestors were in Washington county. They had only been in Southern Utah for five months at the time of the attack and my ggrandfather (Joseph Adair) died in April of 1858. I have no idea whether or not he was actually at the attack although I do know he belonged to the Washington militia (as I believe all adult males did.)

" Still, were I in that situation, I prefer to think I would have told the militia authorities to be damned, and left the scene."

I've read that there were a few who did just that, but I haven't found any that actually mention any names. I like to think that my ggrandfather did not participate, but I really don't know. I haven't even been able to find out how he died. Records are very scarce from Washington county before 1860.

Adair, George Washington, Jr. (1837-1909), 20. Private, Company I, Fifth Platoon, Washington City. One of the nine men indicted for the massacre. Adair admitted going to Mountain Meadows and was present for the massacre. He may have also been used as a messenger between the Meadows and Cedar City.

Mangum, James Mitchell (1820-88), 37. Private, Company I, Fourth Platoon, Washington City. James Mangum claimed he was recruited to go to Mountain Meadows by Carl Shirts to help with Indians but returned home after the Indians threatened his life. William Young, however, recalled returning to Washington with Mangum after the massacre.

Mangum, John (1817-85), 40. Private, Company I, Fourth Platoon, Washington City. Lee's memoirs say that John Mangum helped him talk to Paiutes at Mountain Meadows before the massacre but may have mistaken James for John.

The listing gives an A or a B for each person, depending on whether or not the evidence of the person's participation is conclusive or inconclusive. James Mangum's listing has a B, indicating the evidence is inconclusive.

[gmormon]

I have always wondered about Samuel Groves, he was a brother-in-law of John D Lee. I have never seen him listed, but he was a member of the militia at that time, but if you try to find anything out about him after MMM you lose track of him, I haven't even found a place of death or any census info. on him. My interest is through my wife's family for they are decendents of Patience Groves who was a sister of Sameul, and John D Lee wife, her name escapes me right now, all chidren of Elisha Groves who was also in the militia at that time, but his life is better documented and I don't seriously believe he participated.

[erastus]

I have always wondered about Samuel Groves, he was a brother-in-law of John D Lee. I have never seen him listed, but he was a member of the militia at that time, but if you try to find anything out about him after MMM you lose track of him, I haven't even found a place of death or any census info. on him. My interest is through my wife's family for they are decendents of Patience Groves who was a sister of Sameul, and John D Lee wife, her name escapes me right now, all chidren of Elisha Groves who was also in the militia at that time, but his life is better documented and I don't seriously believe he participated.

Mary Leah Groves was John D. Lee's fifteenth wife. See here

I have very much been looking forward to the book. I attended a lecture by Dr. Turley at Rockville, UT in June.

I haven't seen the book in Southern Utah stores yet.

[katherine the great]

The listing gives an A or a B for each person, depending on whether or not the evidence of the person's participation is conclusive or inconclusive. James Mangum's listing has a B, indicating the evidence is inconclusive.

Interesting. Knowing how tight John and James both were with John D. Lee, I'd guess that he did not mix them up. I'm pretty sure both brothers were there. The Mangum men were my ggggrandmother's brothers. Just an interesting piece of trivia about them (at least I think it is interesting), James married John's daughter so she would have been his niece. Also, right around the time of the massacre, James' first wife gave birth to a baby girl (Lydia) and then abandoned them to return to Payson (which is where they came from.) James gave the baby to another family to raise and she became the grandmother of silent film star John Gilbert.

[gmormon]

Mary Leah Groves was John D. Lee's fifteenth wife. See here

I have very much been looking forward to the book. I attended a lecture by Dr. Turley at Rockville, UT in June.

I haven't seen the book in Southern Utah stores yet.

That's it! Thanks I actually knew that, but often times as in real life, I forget names, (this includes close family and friends,) so if you are ever around me and it looks like I am searching for a name... It's probably because I am.

[consiglieri]

My relatives were the Mangums and the Adairs.

We have some Adairs in our ward, with the patriarch being Darrell Adair. He is a very nice, white-haired man who has spoken regarding his ancestors getting stuck in the snowstorm coming across the plains with the handcart company.

Any relation?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. Who made Selek bottle washer for the SSCE without my knowledge?

That would explain my nasty case of anthrax.

[katherine the great]

We have some Adairs in our ward, with the patriarch being Darrell Adair. He is a very nice, white-haired man who has spoken regarding his ancestors getting stuck in the snowstorm coming across the plains with the handcart company.

Any relation?

Almost certainly. They were a very large family and spread out in Arizona and New Mexico mostly, but some stayed in Utah and went to Idaho and California. They could be most anywhere now. The weird thing is though, that my Adair patriarch was not one of the Adair brothers (and there were five or six of them), but he was some kind of cousin and no one can figure out exactly how he fits in. He went everywhere with the rest of the family though. I'm starting to wonder if he was an illegitimate child of the Adair dad and that the "cousin" story maybe was concocted because of the times. I could be wrong, but it would answer a lot of questions.

[consiglieri]

Almost certainly. They were a very large family and spread out in Arizona and New Mexico mostly, but some stayed in Utah and went to Idaho and California.

Our Adairs came north from California.

Maybe he knows about the MMM connection but just hasn't been as open about it as the Willie Handcart Company link.

I think I'll mention it to him.

Possibly during the next fast-and-testimony meeting.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[katherine the great]

Our Adairs came north from California.

Maybe he knows about the MMM connection but just hasn't been as open about it as the Willie Handcart Company link.

I think I'll mention it to him.

Possibly during the next fast-and-testimony meeting.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Very funny. If he had ancestors with the Willey handcart company, they wouldn't have been these Adairs. He either had non Adair ancestors with the handcart company or else they were different Adairs. These Adairs were all in Utah by 1850. The Willey tragedy was in 1856--the year before the MMM. I seriously doubt any of the Willie Handcart company members made it to Southern Utah in time to participate in the MMM. They wouldn't have even had the strength.

[consiglieri]

Very funny. If he had ancestors with the Willey handcart company, they wouldn't have been these Adairs. He either had non Adair ancestors with the handcart company or else they were different Adairs. These Adairs were all in Utah by 1850. The Willey tragedy was in 1856--the year before the MMM. I seriously doubt any of the Willie Handcart company members made it to Southern Utah in time to participate in the MMM. They wouldn't have even had the strength.

You are no doubt right, and as I think about it, Darrell Adair talked about his maternal line in relation to the Willie Handcart Company.

You are very up to snuff in your history department, Frauline Katherine.

[erastus]

Yesterday (August 4th, 2008) and today, Ronald Walker, Glenn Leonard, and Richard Turley were the guests on Radio West with Doug Fabrizio on KUER.

I have Listened to the first broadcast so far and it makes me even more eager to sit down with the book.

The broadcasts are available on MP3 here and

Also contained in the links is information for a book signing in Salt Lake City on Friday. Too bad that's a six hour drive for me.here

[gmormon]

Yeh for me! My Copy is finally here...almost. The USPS is holding it for me until I can go and get it

[Scott Lloyd]

Yesterday (August 4th, 2008) and today, Ronald Walker, Glenn Leonard, and Richard Turley were the guests on Radio West with Doug Fabrizio on KUER. I have Listened to the first broadcast so far and it makes me even more eager to sit down with the book. The broadcasts are available on MP3 here and

Do you know if there is a transcript available? Also in the radio program, was there a clash with any of the conclusions of previous authors on MMM, e.g. Bagley or Denton?

Yeh for me! My Copy is finally here...almost. The USPS is holding it for me until I can go and get it

I look forward to your observations.

[gmormon]

...I look forward to your observations.

So far I have enjoyed your and others input very much, and can only hope I can add to the conversation.

[Scott Lloyd]

For those who haven't read Will Bagley's book and want something of a capsulized summary of his position on Mountain Meadows, here is a link to a speech he gave back in 2002 to an annual conference of ex-Mormons.

http://www.salamandersociety.com/interviews/willbagley/

It also includes a September 2007 update. When I was on the Mormon History Association bus tour of Mountain Meadows in May 2007, it seemed to me that Turley and Bagley were quite cordial in their relations, but it appears from this that Bagley did not think too much of Turley's September 2007 Ensign article.

Also note the unflattering reference to FAIR, which Bagley renames as "Facts Aren't Important, Really."

[TAK]

Also note the unflattering reference to FAIR, which Bagley renames as "Facts Aren't Important, Really."

LOL.. That seems FAIR !

[LifeOnaPlate]

LOL.. That seems FAIR !

A funny joke but baseless and ignorant. There are volunteers for FAIR who could actually teach Mr. Bagley much about historical inquiry.

[Analytics]

For those who haven't read Will Bagley's book and want something of a capsulized summary of his position on Mountain Meadows, here is a link to a speech he gave back in 2002 to an annual conference of ex-Mormons.

http://www.salamandersociety.com/interviews/willbagley/

It also includes a September 2007 update. When I was on the Mormon History Association bus tour of Mountain Meadows in May 2007, it seemed to me that Turley and Bagley were quite cordial in their relations, but it appears from this that Bagley did not think too much of Turley's September 2007 Ensign article.

Also note the unflattering reference to FAIR, which Bagley renames as "Facts Aren't Important, Really."

Thanks for the link. One thing I found interesting in it is how what Bagley says about his own position differs from what Pahoran says about Bagley's position. Here is what Pahoran says:

Further, I am also aware of the "Brigham did it" conspiracy theory, and the various attempts that have been made to shore it up. I am quite au fait with the events surrounding the MMM, and can say with considerable confidence that Brigham didn't do it, and furthermore that being three hundred miles away, at the end of nothing we would recognise as a road, and in the absence of cell phones and owl post, he could not have done it.

Why couldn't he have done it? Here is what Bagley thinks happened:

What is NOT well known is what Elias Smith revealed in his journal. Because on the evening of the 23rd, when Orrin Porter Rockwell came thundering down into Emigration Canyon in that buckboard, sitting beside him was Eleanor Pratt . Now, that may not mean much to you, and I don't make a big deal out of it in this book, but my dear friend Harold Schindler spent forty years investigating every known fact about Porter Rockwell. And my opinion was that if Schindler didn't know about it, it didn't happen. My opinion's been revised as I began to see letters from Rockwell, which were written by other people, and a lot of other evidence that Schindler was simply barred from.

But I knew when I saw that, that this was a calculated act of vengeance---that the orders came from Brigham Young, and they originated when the apostles met on the evening of the 26th of July, 1857, at Salt Lake, and Brigham Young, recording their discussion, and Brigham Young wrote, "We discussed our enemies," and underlined "enemies" three times.

It was at that meeting that they decided to send George A. Smith south with orders to murder everyone in that party from Arkansas. And why do I know that? Because if you can expunge a fact like this from history, you didn't do it because it was just a trivial event. You did it because it told the tale.

Whether you believe Bagley's story is what happened or you don't, why can we say with certainty that it couldn't have happened? Six weeks would seem like plenty of time to send a message 300 miles.