The 8 Witnesses

[Thinking]

I said nothing about the eight witnesses. But THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer

Jacob Whitmer

Peter Whitmer, Jun

John Whitmer

Hiram Page

Joseph Smith, Sen

Hyrum Smith

Samuel H. Smith

I'm not sure what your point is because I wrote:

The 8 witnesses only testify that he had plates, not that he dug them out of the ground.

[Riptide]

CFR for the claim that there are 13 million Latter-day Saints WHO HAVE GAINED A TESTIMONY.

13 million? Actually it is only 4 million active members even after 170 years is hardly impressive. But that is a topic for another thread.

[Riptide]

To rely on the Burnett letter is very sketchy. Dr. Anderson covers it well in his book Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses.

Furthermore, to suggest that the witnesses cannot be reliable because they were related somehow to Joseph Smith, either as family or acquaintance, is an ad hominem attack. Look at their character individually, and you will see that each of them was honest and sincere his entire life.

I am so glad you can just invalidate letters that hold the truth and validate statements from others who hold a different opinion. Wow...simply amazing. I just wish members of the church would stop and think in a non-subjective manner. Of course you have a lot to lose if done so.

[auteur55]

There is no justification for assuming that the generations before us were fools, or that foolishness ended when we were born

Point taken

But in the context of Joseph Smith's community and the area in which he lived where the mythology of treasure digging was very popular at the time I can see how the idea of Golden Plates being dug out of the ground might be easily believed.

Plus after you throw in many that believed Joseph had had gold plates it would make sense that many would fall for Kinderhook or the Strang plates. Most believed the same thing had already happened.

[Phinehas]

Thinking:

JS did not get the plates from an angel. JS dug them out of the ground.

Now, HOW JS knew where to dig is another question.

The same way he dug for buried treasure. His peep stone told him

[flameburns623]

Source, please?

Try this:

- W. Wyl, Mormon Portraits, 1886, p. 36

No idea how reliable Mr. Wyl was as an historian but there's your source.

[Phinehas]

I am so glad you can just invalidate letters that hold the truth and validate statements from others who hold a different opinion. Wow...simply amazing. I just wish members of the church would stop and think in a non-subjective manner. Of course you have a lot to lose if done so.

It has always seemed to me also, that those who believed Joseph's story are the believable ones, and those who don't aren't believable.

Try this:- W. Wyl, Mormon Portraits, 1886, p. 36No idea how reliable Mr. Wyl was as an historian but there's your source.

He left mormonism so he is not to be believed. This is the standard story line... He had an agenda

[Daniel Peterson]

No idea how reliable Mr. Wyl was as an historian but there's your source.

He was an anti-Mormon hack writer whose real name was Wilhelm von Wymetal. He was never, so far as I know, a member of the Church. Academic historians regard him as, at best, a problematic source.

[thesometimesaint]

Phinehas:

"His peep stone told him."

CFR

[Honorentheos]

Moreover, it strikes me as amusing that the witnesses, a group of early nineteenth-century farmers who spent their lives rising at sunrise, pulling up stumps, clearing rocks, plowing fields, sowing seeds, carefully nurturing crops, raising livestock, milking cows, digging wells, building cabins, raising barns, harvesting their own food, bartering (in an often cashless economy) for what they could not produce themselves, wearing clothes made from plant fibers and skins, anxiously watching the seasons, and walking or riding animals out under the weather until they retired to their beds shortly after sunset in "a world lit only by fire," are being portrayed as estranged from everyday empirical reality by people whose lives, like mine, consist to a large extent of staring at computer and television screens in artificially air-conditioned and artificially lit homes and offices, clothed in synthetic fibers, commuting between the two in enclosed and air-conditioned mechanical vehicles while they listen to the radio, chat on their cell phones, and fiddle with their iPodsâ??all of whose inner workings are largely mysterious to themâ??who buy their prepackaged food (with little or no regard for the time or the season) by means of plastic cards and electronic financial transfers from artificially illuminated and air-conditioned supermarkets enmeshed in international distribution networks of which they know virtually nothing, the rhythms of whose daily lives are largely unaffected by the rising and setting of the sun.

I like the quote, DCP. It's worth keeping in mind. It reminds me of something written by Carl Jung in, "The Undiscovered Self" regarding empirical reality versus statistical reality used to interpret the world.

But I think the issue is that neither 19th century pioneers nor 21st century technophiles have access to empirical reality, except as it is interpreted through our own, current worldviews. The question, then, what evidence would have been required to persuade a person as you describe the 19th century witness to be to feel satisfied they had seen or handled the gold plates? And is this enough to satisfy the modern critic?

My skepticism is old, but worth considering I think.

First, the description of the plates with dimensions as linked to earlier left a quick question in my mind- gold plates of these dimensions (6"x8"x6")would not weigh 40-60 lbs. They would be heavier, by enough that a person who worked manually lifting things on a farm daily should have estimated higher. Closer to double would be more accurate or even higher depending on the purity of the gold used. A quick dig into the FAIR archives shows that there is an explanation for this suggesting that the plates were a copper/gold (66/33) alloy rather than pure gold. Which is a plausible explanation, though it gets back to the point made earlier that the witnesses were not examining the plates scientifically. We have only the statement, "gold in appearance" to tell us what they were made of with other incidental descriptions suggesting that they are not pure gold.

To my mind, though, it then becomes an easier matter to find simpler solutions than that JS manufactured plates or was given gold plates by supernatural means. A possibility would be the use of copper/tin/or other metal roofing shingles that were etched "with a sharp instrument" to form the initial 1/3 of the bound collection. Martin Harris's comparison of the leaves as being similar in thickness to tin sheet suggested this. It would explain the weigh to volume ratio as well.

The remaining sealed 1/2 to 2/3's would not have required etching, and could have been soldered together to prevent them from being opened. In other words, they would appear sealed.

Second, the list of first-person descriptions from the eight witnesses seems weighted towards a couple of principal authors. To me, this is not critical to my skeptical view, but does call the witness to question. While I believe that the signers of the Declaration of Independence, for example, held common cause, I do not think most shared the exact same vision for the break with Great Britain as did Thomas Jefferson. It is interesting to read the diverse views of these men and how they and the other founders formed the aggregate soil (and by no means homogeneous) from which our nation grew. In the same way, I have to suspect that the primary information in the Testimony of the Eight Witnesses comes from the author with whom the eight shared common cause, but not necessarily common views of what transpired. More, consolidated information on their individual testimonies is always of interest.

[Honorentheos]

For reference, the article on the plate's weight can be found here:

How much did the plates weigh?

[MormonPeasant]

The same way he dug for buried treasure. His peep stone told him

CFR on that statement. Or is that merely your personal opinion?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The same way he dug for buried treasure. His peep stone told him

That is so funny my elbow hurts. Come on get real.

13 million? Actually it is only 4 million active members even after 170 years is hardly impressive. But that is a topic for another thread.

I didnt realise anybody was out trying to impress you. You do realise that not everything in this world is about you?

[MormonPeasant]

For reference, the article on the plate's weight can be found here:

How much did the plates weigh?

The answer given were that the plates could be between 50-85 pounds, approximately. Yet, it was still a speculative answer well within the estimates given by those who actually handled and hefted the plates, which typically claimed about 60 lbs.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I am so glad you can just invalidate letters that hold the truth and validate statements from others who hold a different opinion. Wow...simply amazing. I just wish members of the church would stop and think in a non-subjective manner. Of course you have a lot to lose if done so.

All hail Riptide, he is the mightiest non-subjective thinker ( what ever the hell that means) out there. Come on gang, we can learn a thing or 2 from him. Please master teach your non-subjective ways.

Of course the same thing could be said about you. I just wish the Riptides of the world would stop and think in a non-subjective manner. Of course you ahve a lot to lose if done so.

See its so easy. You havent posted one thing worth a crap since you got here. pelase start posting things with some substance.

[Honorentheos]

The answer given were that the plates could be between 50-85 pounds, approximately. Yet, it was still a speculative answer well within the estimates given by those who actually handled and hefted the plates, which typically claimed about 60 lbs.

Exactly (noting that the weight is for Tumbaga plates, not gold). And based on this, they were not gold but at best a gold alloy. Or something else entirely.

Which goes back to my point- once one gets past the idea that the plates were in fact gold, the notion that JS may have constructed something that meets the appearance requirements handed down to us over time becomes very plausible vs having had to find enough gold and then form it into a book as described. I suggested a somewhat common material for the time (tin or copper roofing tiles) though this is speculative.

But it comes back to the idea that the eight witnesses were not scientificaly offering an objective witness to the existence of the gold plates, as proposed in the OP. Rather, their witness is a subjective one that states they saw plates gold in appearance but appear to hold non-gold physical properties in terms of mass and weight.

If they did not see gold plates, does their witness really matter anymore?

[MormonPeasant]

Exactly (noting that the weight is for Tumbaga plates, not gold). And based on this, they were not gold but at best a gold alloy. Or something else entirely.

Which goes back to my point- once one gets past the idea that the plates were in fact gold, the notion that JS may have constructed something that meets the appearance requirements handed down to us over time becomes very plausible vs having had to find enough gold and then form it into a book as described. I suggested a somewhat common material for the time (tin or copper roofing tiles) though this is speculative.

But it comes back to the idea that the eight witnesses were not scientificaly offering an objective witness to the existence of the gold plates, as proposed in the OP. Rather, their witness is a subjective one that states they saw plates gold in appearance but appear to hold non-gold physical properties in terms of mass and weight.

If they did not see gold plates, does their witness really matter anymore?

They witnessed the plates. They were not asked to verify their composition. The sole purpose of their testimony is to declare they actually existed. It still gets pretty fanciful for those who challenge Joseph Smith's personal account that he either made the plates himself or had someone else other than Moroni produce them for him.

Whether they were 24 carat or merely a gold-alloy, it matters not.

[Honorentheos]

They witnessed the plates. They were not asked to verify their composition. The sole purpose of their testimony is to declare they actually existed. It still gets pretty fanciful for those who challenge Joseph Smith's personal account that he either made the plates himself or had someone else other than Moroni produce them for him.

Whether they were 24 carat or merely a gold-alloy, it matters not.

It does in the sense that they may not have been gold at all. We don't know what they saw, but based on the evidence they reported plates "having the apperance of gold" but not the physical properties of gold. (Edited to add:) This calls into question the value of their witness as proposed in the OP- are they providing an effective objective physical witness of the existinance of the plates that works in tandum with the spiritual witness of the three witnesses if their witness can not even verify that the plates were, in fact, gold? With this one problem, it seems their value as witnesses is severly diminished within the context of the OP.

Along these lines, though not specific to the witnesses is the report from Emma Smith that she was able to move the plates around on the table as she performed her duties in the home (i.e.- dusting the table off where they lay under cover). She also describes her ability to thumb the pages as if they were thick paper. As much as I admire frontier women, I have a hard time believeing that she would describe moving a 60 lb. object around on a table so simply, and again the properties of tumbaga are hard, not like paper.

Based on this, I also suspect that what Emma handled (possibly a book?) and what the other's described (a manufactured version of the plates out of a common material such as tin or copper roofing tiles?) are two different objects.

[Honorentheos]

They witnessed the plates. They were not asked to verify their composition. The sole purpose of their testimony is to declare they actually existed. It still gets pretty fanciful for those who challenge Joseph Smith's personal account that he either made the plates himself or had someone else other than Moroni produce them for him.

Whether they were 24 carat or merely a gold-alloy, it matters not.

Also, it matters in that a book of 24 carat gold would be beyond even JS's ability to carry alone. It would weigh well over 200 lbs, even with the voids described in the ensign article.

[John Williams]

If you are going to suggest fraud on Joseph Smith's part, that is, he did not receive the plates from an angel but simply made them, then I am dying to know how he got said plates.

I can easily tell you how Joseph got plates if he indeed got them from and angel. If you suggest otherwise, then the burden of proof rests on you to show me how. Hey, I am just trying to follow the atheist maxim here of "Astonishing claims require astonishing evidence" or whatever.

Since when is it an "astonishing claim" that somebody managed to come up with allegedly ancient plates? James Strang managed to do it, and so did the Kinderhook fellows. Do you think it's astonishing that they managed to come up with passable plates? Or is Joseph Smith a special case who couldn't manage what others did? Add to this that Joseph Smith had been talking about plates since 1823, and you have plenty of time for him to come up with something. Again, that he did or did not show someone plates is irrelevant and is, despite your OP, no evidence that he translated an ancient record.

I agree. However, and we can discuss this on a different thread maybe, the fact that Joseph had plates shows they came from somewhere. If we believe they are ancient, as I do, then I would be happy to tell you how Joseph got them, etc. If they are modern, then I am all ears as to you explaining how Joseph made them, etc.

In case you missed it the first two times: whether or not he had plates is immaterial to a discussion of whether he actually translated an ancient record. You seem to have latched onto a tangential point of limited importance to the discussion.

No, not impossible, but very unlikely and highly improbable.

Honestly, why is it unlikely and highly improbable? Two other contemporaries managed to do it, so why not Joseph Smith?

[mnn727]

OK, I am a TBM now, however I am an adult convert. My in-laws had a copy of the BoM they got from a cousin well over 10 years before I converted and I looked at it including the Testimony of the 3 and the 8 witnesses. My conclusion at the time (a decade before I was even an investigator, just someone sitting down and opening up the BoM) was that the 8 witnsses only had 3 different last names. 3 of them were Smiths (imagine that -- 3 relatives), then 4 Whitmers and 1 Page. Sounded like a set up to me. JS got his family and friends together for a con-job and I never even started reading 1st Nephi. Just for the record I had a similar view of the Bible too, leaning as I did on the Agnostic side and even venturing into the Atheistic view.

I have a different opinion now, but that came after much soul searching and a spiritual witness.

The 8 Witnesses:

Christian Whitmer

Jacob Whitmer

Peter Whitmer, Jun

John Whitmer

Hiram Page

Joseph Smith, Sen

Hyrum Smith

Samuel H. Smith

[John Williams]

OK, I am a TBM now, however I am an adult convert. My in-laws had a copy of the BoM they got from a cousin well over 10 years before I converted and I looked at it including the Testimony of the 3 and the 8 witnesses. My conclusion at the time (a decade before I was even an investigator, just someone sitting down and opening up the BoM) was that the 8 witnsses only had 3 different last names. 3 of them were Smiths (imagine that -- 3 relatives), then 4 Whitmers and 1 Page. Sounded like a set up to me. JS got his family and friends together for a con-job and I never even started reading 1st Nephi. Just for the record I had a similar view of the Bible too, leaning as I did on the Agnostic side and even venturing into the Atheistic view.

I have a different opinion now, but that came after much soul searching and a spiritual witness.

The 8 Witnesses:

Christian Whitmer

Jacob Whitmer

Peter Whitmer, Jun

John Whitmer

Hiram Page

Joseph Smith, Sen

Hyrum Smith

Samuel H. Smith

When you realize that Hiram Page was a Whitmer in-law, you really only have two families here. Just saying.

[thesometimesaint]

John W:

I barely am able to claim that some are my In-Laws.

Just kidding. I do like my In-Laws most of the time anyways.

[LifeOnaPlate]

When you realize that Hiram Page was a Whitmer in-law, you really only have two families here. Just saying.

For anyone out there who still has faith in Christianity, I suggest you look into the backgrounds of Christ's 12 apostles, who, oddly, have some family relations going on...

[Honorentheos]

A quick question for anyone who may know, that impacts this thread- Were the sealed plates, which apparently held the vision given to the brother of Jared, supposed to be the originals? Or were they supposed to have been copied?

This has impacts because the original plates of Ether are described as being pure gold. It would mean at least 1/2 to 2/3 of the book would be pretty heavy on their own if this is the case.

Thoughts?