The 8 Witnesses

[Rommelator]

Over at CARM, on the thread about the word-print studies, one poster made a snide remark about Joseph Smith's "invisible" golden plates.

That has gotten me thinking.

I think that the 3 & 8 Witnesses to the Book of Mormon plates constitute one of the strongest piece of evidence that Joseph Smith was telling the truth. The 3 Witnesses testified that the translation was correct and that it was from God while the 8 Witnesses testified simply that Joseph Smith had plates. Nothing supernatural or spiritual about it. They simple say that they felt and saw physical plates.

Now, here is what I think.

Critics, usually atheists, like to point out that a lot of people have claimed to having visions or seeing angels, etc. They therefore simply dismiss the 3 Witnesses as delusional or as being hypnotized. I can understand this criticism, even though I think it is misguided.

The 8 Witnesses, on the other hand, are an entirely different story. There are no angels, visions or supernatural forces involved. They simply say that they felt the plates. They talk about weight, color, density, and other physical details.

This is why I think the 3 & 8 Witnesses are so amazing. The 3 testify that it came from God while the 8 simply state that there were plates. If the 8 Witnesses were missing, then one could simply say the 3 Witnesses were delusional. If the 3 were missing, then one could question whether or not Joseph Smith correctly translated the plates. They come together to support and back up each other.

So, here is my question for the critics who claim that Joseph Smith never had gold plates:

How do you explain the 8 Witnesses? Let us leave the 3 Witnesses out of the picture for now and only focus on the 8 Witnesses. How do you explain, if Joseph Smith never had any plates, how these men gave distinct details, all of which agree with each other, about the plates if there were none ever there? And how do you explain that to their dying days they affirmed that they saw and handled those plates? Even after becoming bitter apostates they affirmed that they handled the plates. How do you account for this?

Furthermore, if you go with Dan Vogel's ad hoc approach that Joseph Smith crafted some tin plates, then how do you explain that:

1. Joseph was never caught manufacturing these plates by his eager and prying neighbors.

2. That Joseph Smith's neighbors never thought it possible that Joseph Smith could have made these bogus plates. I am thinking specifically about Martin Harris's comments wherein, when asked if Joseph could have done such with either tin or gold, he said that Joseph never even had enough money to buy so much tin.

3. Why, when his neighbors were eager to give any scrap of dirt to E. D. Howe on the Smith family, it never occurred to them to make up some story about Joseph Smith crafting tin plates? We know that they falsified stories about Joseph and his family, so why would they never think to make up some story about Joseph making plates?

Also, do you not think it is significant that Joseph's bitter neighbors took Joseph serious enough to try to rob him again and again of the plates? I sure do.

Anyhow, I would appreciate your input and ideas. But, like I said, let us keep it to the 8 Witnesses.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_wi...Eight_witnesses

http://en.fairmormon.org/%22shown_to_me_by...atural_power%22

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=357

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=235

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?id=21&table=transcripts

http://www.mormonfortress.com/witness1.html

[Avatar4321]

Good questions. I've always thought it interesting that critics continue to claim no one but Joseph ever saw the plates despite the witnesses.

[Cold Steel]

Amen. It's what we have in common with early Judaism and Christianity. Both the ancient prophets and the apostolic Christians had witnesses. Muhammad, Mary Harmon White and the many, many other false prophets failed to produce anyone but the principalsâ??and when they died, it was a free for all.

You can always tell God's church because it will have witnesses. The restoration of the priesthood, the return of Elijah, the Book of Mormon, the vision of the Three Degrees of Glory were all witnessed by Joseph Smith and at least one other person who could say they were there and saw it with their own eyes. This one fact will condemn most of the ones who reject the gospel.

It's a very strong point.

[Billy]

I think that the 3 & 8 Witnesses to the Book of Mormon plates constitute one of the strongest piece of evidence that Joseph Smith was telling the truth. The 3 Witnesses testified that the translation was correct and that it was from God while the 8 Witnesses testified simply that Joseph Smith had plates. Nothing supernatural or spiritual about it. They simple say that they felt and saw physical plates.

Now, here is what I think.

Critics, usually atheists, like to point out that a lot of people have claimed to having visions or seeing angels, etc. They therefore simply dismiss the 3 Witnesses as delusional or as being hypnotized. I can understand this criticism, even though I think it is misguided.

The 8 Witnesses, on the other hand, are an entirely different story. There are no angels, visions or supernatural forces involved. They simply say that they felt the plates. They talk about weight, color, density, and other physical details.

This is why I think the 3 & 8 Witnesses are so amazing. The 3 testify that it came from God while the 8 simply state that there were plates. If the 8 Witnesses were missing, then one could simply say the 3 Witnesses were delusional. If the 3 were missing, then one could question whether or not Joseph Smith correctly translated the plates. They come together to support and back up each other.

So, here is my question for the critics who claim that Joseph Smith never had gold plates:

How do you explain the 8 Witnesses? Let us leave the 3 Witnesses out of the picture for now and only focus on the 8 Witnesses.

I think that the witnesses are also the strongest piece of evidence for the LDS church.

Your question specifically revolves around the 8 witnesses. This reminds me a lot of the plates that James Strang had and translated. Notice he had 7 witnesses who examined them and handled them with their hands.

http://www.strangite.org/Law.htm

"T E S T I M O N Y .

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, to whom this Book of the Law of the Lord shall come, that James J. Strang has the plates of the ancient Book of the Law of the Lord given to Moses, from which he translated this law, and has shown them to us. We examined them with our eyes, and handled them with our hands. The engravings are beautiful antique workmanship, bearing a striking resemblance to the ancient oriental languages; and those from which the laws in this book were translated are eighteen in number, about seven inches and three-eights wide, by nine inches long, occasionally embellished with beautiful pictures.

And we testify unto you all that the everlasting kingdom of God is established, in which this law shall be kept, till it brings in rest and everlasting righteousness to all the faithful.

SAMUEL GRAHAM,

SAMUEL P. BACON,

WARREN POST,

PHINEAS WRIGHT,

ALBERT N. HOSMER,

EBENEZER PAGE,

JEHIEL SAVAGE."

[Phinehas]

From what I understand,

None of the witnesses ever saw the plates with their own physical eyesight. Like we see while driving a car.

They were all "spiritual" sightings or visions/dreams

[Phinehas]

This one fact will condemn most of the ones who reject the gospel.

It's a very strong point.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[Rommelator]

From what I understand,

None of the witnesses ever saw the plates with their own physical eyesight. Like we see while driving a car.

They were all "spiritual" sightings or visions/dreams

False. Read the materials I linked as well as Richard L. Anderson's Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses. All of the Witnesses affirmed that they physically beheld the plates while in a spiritual state. That is not to say that they were only having "visions" but that the Spirit was abiding with them while they beheld the plates. See here:

http://en.fairmormon.org/%22Eye_of_Faith%2...y_Martin_Harris

[Rommelator]

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 3: 17-19

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18

[Obiwan]

From what I understand,

None of the witnesses ever saw the plates with their own physical eyesight. Like we see while driving a car.

They were all "spiritual" sightings or visions/dreams

You clearly DON'T KNOW SQUAT about the actual history.....

It was one or two of the Three Witnesses which this "type" of testimony came. NOT any of the 8 Witnesses!

Clearly, when seeing an Angel of God at the same time while seeing the plates, I would think that a man would be uplifted in the SPIRIT to see such, wouldn't you???

Plus, there were no "all spiritual sightings or visions/dreams" as you represent.

There were predominately ONLY TWO EVENTS! First, Joseph presented the plates and the 8 witnesses saw and handled the plates, without any "fantasy" involved.

And the second event occured with Joseph and the Three witnesses, seeing the Angel and the plates both together.

Man, why do people pretend to be experts on things they are utterly ignorant of, and thereby bear false witness?

Go read some REAL scholarship instead of drive by anti-mormonism which uses a little truth to tell great lies!

[John Larsen]

What exactly do you have 8 witness of? These men did not claim any kind of heavenly manifestation as you aptly pointed out. None of these men were very educated. There wasnâ??t a metallurgist, linguist, historian, goldsmith or engraver among the whole lot. Joseph Smith produced something they all thought was an ancient record engraved in gold. However, not a one wrote any description of what they saw other than the signed affidavit that was written by the man they already accepted as a prophet.

What you have is 8 men who were not impartial. They were principally family and church members who had already accepted Josephâ??s extraordinary claims. The early Church was marked by belief in supernatural activities, folk magic and heavenly manifestations. Every street magician knows that the best tool in fooling an audience is their preconceived idea of what they are going to see.

Who knows what they saw? Maybe Joseph made something up. Maybe he used tricks of prospective and low light, having them peer into a box. If you sit and think about, there are probably 1000s of things he could have done. He had time to prepare. Add this to the willing audience and the need to see and I am sure you can see why outsiders do not find this â??evidenceâ? compelling.

[Obiwan]

What exactly do you have 8 witness of? These men did not claim any kind of heavenly manifestation as you aptly pointed out. None of these men were very educated. There wasnâ??t a metallurgist, linguist, historian, goldsmith or engraver among the whole lot. Joseph Smith produced something they all thought was an ancient record engraved in gold. However, not a one wrote any description of what they saw other than the signed affidavit that was written by the man they already accepted as a prophet.

What you have is 8 men who were not impartial. They were principally family and church members who had already accepted Josephâ??s extraordinary claims. The early Church was marked by belief in supernatural activities, folk magic and heavenly manifestations. Every street magician knows that the best tool in fooling an audience is their preconceived idea of what they are going to see.

Who knows what they saw? Maybe Joseph made something up. Maybe he used tricks of prospective and low light, having them peer into a box. If you sit and think about, there are probably 1000s of things he could have done. He had time to prepare. Add this to the willing audience and the need to see and I am sure you can see why outsiders do not find this â??evidenceâ? compelling.

All of which goes against the actual record..... Simply negative assumptions without any evidence.

There is however evidence as to "who" those people were, their education, their intellects, their character, etc.

There's lot's of other evidence of the plates reliable existance etc.

Now Joseph's a "Street Magician"..... haaaaa haaaaa haaaa

Man.... I had my "lucky charms" when I was a kid, I guess that means I practiced "folk magic" and was a "street magician".

[Rommelator]

However, not a one wrote any description of what they saw other than the signed affidavit that was written by the man they already accepted as a prophet.

Did you read this link?

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=235

The early Church was marked by belief in supernatural activities, folk magic and heavenly manifestations. Every street magician knows that the best tool in fooling an audience is their preconceived idea of what they are going to see.

This might pass off with the 3 Witnesses, but not the 8. There is no hocus pocus or anything supernatural with their account. They simply describe the plates.

Who knows what they saw?

I do. They saw plates with the appearance of gold.

Maybe Joseph made something up.

Evidence please.

Maybe he used tricks of prospective and low light, having them peer into a box.

Evidence please.

If you sit and think about, there are probably 1000s of things he could have done. He had time to prepare.

Time to prepare? Yes, between his farming to stay alive, providing for Emma, translating the plates from dawn till dusk, seeing the Book of Mormon printed, traveling, etc. he also had time to make 60lbs of gold into thin sheets of metal and bind them in a D shaped ring all without anyone noticing.

Add this to the willing audience and the need to see and I am sure you can see why outsiders do not find this â??evidenceâ? compelling.

A willing audience? Martin Harris is so skeptical that he takes characters back to New York City with him to prove they are true, and you call this a "willing audience"?

Nice mind reading there John. Care to show me evidence that they were a "willing audience"?

[MormonPeasant]

What exactly do you have 8 witness of? These men did not claim any kind of heavenly manifestation as you aptly pointed out. None of these men were very educated. There wasnâ??t a metallurgist, linguist, historian, goldsmith or engraver among the whole lot. Joseph Smith produced something they all thought was an ancient record engraved in gold. However, not a one wrote any description of what they saw other than the signed affidavit that was written by the man they already accepted as a prophet.

What you have is 8 men who were not impartial. They were principally family and church members who had already accepted Josephâ??s extraordinary claims. The early Church was marked by belief in supernatural activities, folk magic and heavenly manifestations. Every street magician knows that the best tool in fooling an audience is their preconceived idea of what they are going to see.

Who knows what they saw? Maybe Joseph made something up. Maybe he used tricks of prospective and low light, having them peer into a box. If you sit and think about, there are probably 1000s of things he could have done. He had time to prepare. Add this to the willing audience and the need to see and I am sure you can see why outsiders do not find this â??evidenceâ? compelling.

Your fanciful speculation doesn't agree with their signed testimonies. Please re-read their declaration, then try to come up with a better excuse for why you think they were deceived.

[John Larsen]

Did you read this link?

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=235

A willing audience? Martin Harris is so skeptical that he takes characters back to New York City with him to prove they are true, and you call this a "willing audience"?

Martin Harris was not one of the 8 witnesses. I am willing to address you other concerns when you can get on the page of what we are even talking about. Please review the OP, revise you misdirected attack and I will be happy to address you relevant concerns.

[Billy]

All of which goes against the actual record..... Simply negative assumptions without any evidence.

There is however evidence as to "who" those people were, their education, their intellects, their character, etc.

I find it odd that JS picked within two families for the 8 witnesses. I wonder why he did not spread it out a little bit more like James Strang did?

Christian Whitmer

Jacob Whitmer

Peter Whitmer, Jun

John Whitmer

Hiram Page (Page married Catherine Whitmer, daughter of Peter Whitmer, Sr.)

Joseph Smith, Sen

Hyrum Smith

Samuel H. Smith

[John Larsen]

I think you are all misunderstanding my point. Let us suppose that they saw what they thought were gold plates with characters engraved upon them. My argument is simply that these men could not possibly verify that what they saw was of ancient origin or was the source of the Book of Mormon.

[MormonPeasant]

From what I understand,

None of the witnesses ever saw the plates with their own physical eyesight. Like we see while driving a car.

They were all "spiritual" sightings or visions/dreams

CFR that none saw the plates with their own physical eyesight.

Quit playing fast and lose with your own desire of what you wish truly happened from what was actually reported by the 8 witnesses.

[Rommelator]

Martin Harris was not one of the 8 witnesses.

No, but John Whitmer was.

""There were fine engravings on both sides."37 â??John Whitmer"

Also read Anderson's piece. He reports on the other writings of the 8 Witnesses: http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=357

[Rommelator]

Let us suppose that they saw what they thought were gold plates with characters engraved upon them. My argument is simply that these men could not possibly verify that what they saw was of ancient origin or was the source of the Book of Mormon.

Who said anything about them being ancient. I was talking just about Joseph Smith having plates, period. People assume he never had any. I say the 8 Witnesses, along with others such as Emma and Lucy Mack Smith, contradict this.Furthermore, this still begs the question as to how Joseph was able to fabricate plates. If the plates were not ancient, as you imply, then who made them, how, when, where and why did no one else seem to notice?

I find it odd that JS picked within two families for the 8 witnesses. I wonder why he did not spread it out a little bit more like James Strang did?

Celsus mocked the early Christian witnesses to Jesus' resurrection. Why, he asked, did Jesus only show himself to a select few of his family and friends and not the whole world? Certainly that would prove he has been risen, yes?

[Rommelator]

From Emma Smith:"The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen table cloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I once felt of the plates, as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metalic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book."

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?fi...p;type=cmV2aWV3

From Richard L. Anderson:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publicatio...&chapid=181

This is an important treatise on both the 3 and 8 Witnesses.

[Billy]

If the plates were not ancient, as you imply, then who made them, how, when, where and why did no one else seem to notice?

Does the physical plates that the 8 witnesses saw prove the truthfulness of the LDS church? Or does it just prove the existence of metallic plates?

Is it possible that JS could of arranged for somebody to have the plates made and brought to him in a discrete manner?

Take for instance the Kinderhook plates which were manufactured by men to look old, these plates were found in 1843. Although these plates would not be as fancy as would be expected for the B of M plates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_Plates

[Rommelator]

Does the physical plates that the 8 witnesses saw prove the truthfulness of the LDS church? Or does it just prove the existence of metallic plates?

The latter. It proves that Joseph had plates. Whether or not they are ancient is a different story. (This is where the 3 Witnesses come in, IMO.) But it shows he had plates.

Is it possible that JS could of arranged for somebody to have the plates made and brought to him in a discrete manner?

Highly unlikely. There are too many unknowns and not enough concrete evidence.

1. Who is this person?

2. How did Joseph Smith know him/her?

3. How did Joseph Smith pay this person for his/her services when he could barely support himself? To produce plates would be neither cheap nor easy to do.

4. When did Joseph inform this person that he needed plates? To make something as described by the witnesses would not be easy, and most assuredly very time consuming. At what point did Joseph decide he needed plates?

5. What happened to the plates? This is a biggy, since, as critics assure me, this would "prove" Joseph Smith's story, right?

6. How did this conspiracy go unnoticed by everyone?

Take for instance the Kinderhook plates which were manufactured by men to look old, these plates were found in 1843. Although these plates would not be as fancy as would be expected for the B of M plates.

Yes. Some palm sized plates is nothing compared to 60lbs of metal flattened into thin sheets and bound with a D shaped ring.

[Avatar4321]

Does the physical plates that the 8 witnesses saw prove the truthfulness of the LDS church? Or does it just prove the existence of metallic plates?

Is it possible that JS could of arranged for somebody to have the plates made and brought to him in a discrete manner?

Take for instance the Kinderhook plates which were manufactured by men to look old, these plates were found in 1843. Although these plates would not be as fancy as would be expected for the B of M plates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_Plates

Milk could shoot out of my nose. Doesn't mean it did or is likely to happen anytime soon.

Are you admitting that Joseph actually had physical plates that appeared like Gold?

[Phinehas]

You clearly DON'T KNOW SQUAT about the actual history.....

It was one or two of the Three Witnesses which this "type" of testimony came. NOT any of the 8 Witnesses!

Clearly, when seeing an Angel of God at the same time while seeing the plates, I would think that a man would be uplifted in the SPIRIT to see such, wouldn't you???

Plus, there were no "all spiritual sightings or visions/dreams" as you represent.

There were predominately ONLY TWO EVENTS! First, Joseph presented the plates and the 8 witnesses saw and handled the plates, without any "fantasy" involved.

And the second event occured with Joseph and the Three witnesses, seeing the Angel and the plates both together.

Man, why do people pretend to be experts on things they are utterly ignorant of, and thereby bear false witness?

Go read some REAL scholarship instead of drive by anti-mormonism which uses a little truth to tell great lies!

\

You must think capitalizing and underlining makes your insult more authoritative?

LOL!

Try again

Now all you have given is your own opinion like I have.

What makes yours better than mine?

Enough to make you hurl insults?

[Phinehas]

From Emma Smith:"The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen table cloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I once felt of the plates, as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metalic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book."

This is an important treatise on both the 3 and 8 Witnesses.

Is this anything like another "showing" Joseph made?

"the bank vault was lined with many boxes, each marked $1,000. These boxes were actually filled with "sand, lead, old iron, stone, and combustibles," but each had a top layer of bright fifty-cent silver coins. Anyone suspicious of the bank's stability was permitted to lift and count the boxes.

Joseph was quite the trickster.

Form an outsiders view, it is hard to believe anything the man said.