Joseph Smith Died In A "shoot-out"

[LifeOnaPlate]

Take a look, the left side of his nose there, you can see where the death mask shows a bulge from where the bullet hit.

[Buckeye]

Sounds like he was shot in the head AND the chest. Shot from the back going through his body and hitting his pocket watch is awfully close to the chest, IMO. Most any shot in the face a fairly close range and the ball entering the head would kill instantly. When would he have the opportunity to exclaim, "I am a dead man?"

I think you are confusing Hyrum with Taylor. The pocketwatch belonged to John Taylor, who was shot in the chest during the raid, but survived - quite possibly because of the pocketwatch.

[HanClinto]

Even if I agreed with you, how does this make Joseph Smith not a martyr?

You might want to ask someone who thinks that Joseph Smith wasn't a martyr. As for me, I've been saying:

...I don't think I would have ever denied that Joseph was killed for his beliefs (and the actions that were driven from his beliefs). In this way, he is certainly a martyr -- previous pages laid it out pretty well that many people fall under this umbrella -- both surrendered lambs like Perpetua and fighting bulls that kill men as they themselves are taken down. It's a wide umbrella.

So while LoudmouthMormon's post was good, it wasn't addressing the same point that I was. I wasn't arguing the "martyr" term...

I may not realize all of the implications, but for the record, I don't have any more of a problem calling Joseph Smith a martyr than I do of calling Husayn or Ghandi martyrs as well.

Yes, that was a major part of it, I agree, and used as the corroborating evidence against him. However, his act in the Temple is what most historians believe was the final breach that gave the Jews the evidence they needed to send Jesus to the Romans for death.

...

This is what I've read of the history of the time. I don't really care about your quotes from the Bible.

Hey, no worries -- you don't have to care about it, I'm just going off of what the Bible says. As far as "most historians", do you mean "most secular historians"? Even so, that seems like a hasty generalization. To pitch in a generalization of my own, the theological historians I've met personally tended to feel that the Bible is fairly authoritative on the subject when it comes to Jesus' life and death.

I'm still new here, and I'm not yet caught up here as far as who's pro/anti-Mo, and who trusts the Bible/BoM/PoGP/etc.

I was going off of the idea that the Bible was a fairly common ground between Mormons and Christians that we could use to reason together.

What do you think the mob would have done if JS had surrendered? Let all the witnesses to their illegal actions live after they had murdered JS?

I imagine if he had surrendered himself that he would have been killed as a lamb to the slaughter, either via lynching or firing squad. As far as his friends, I imagine things would have worked out similarly to the way it did, though if JS had been a little more preemptive in surrendering himself, his brother might not have been killed in the scuffle (if indeed the mob was only after Joseph).

Okay, I think that catches me up. If I didn't respond to someone's reply that still wants addressing, please bring it to my attention. Phew, this thread moves fast.

Cheers!

--clint

[Scott Lloyd]

But since Joseph's actions that precipitated the event, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press was illegal, this takes away the martyr points he would have received for submitting to the arrest. Slobodan Milo

[maklelan]

When Jesus overturned the money changing tables in the Temple, he WAS breaking established Jewish law at this time. As a matter of fact, it was probably what finally gave the Sanhedrin the excuse they needed to finally arrest Him and it was certainly one of the most serious 'transgressions' they used to plead for Rome to put Him to death.

No it wasn't. There's no justification for this theory anywhere outside of mere speculation.

[alter idem]

Sounds like he was shot in the head AND the chest. Shot from the back going through his body and hitting his pocket watch is awfully close to the chest, IMO. Most any shot in the face a fairly close range and the ball entering the head would kill instantly. When would he have the opportunity to exclaim, "I am a dead man?"

Hyrum was not shot in the chest. He was only shot in the face--to the side of his nose. Apparently he could still talk if he said "I am a dead man", but He was not shot in the chest.

[emeliza]

I'm still new here, and I'm not yet caught up here as far as who's pro/anti-Mo, and who trusts the Bible/BoM/PoGP/etc.

I was going off of the idea that the Bible was a fairly common ground between Mormons and Christians that we could use to reason together.

The Bible is common ground between Mormons and Christians (as far as using it, not in interpretation obviously). However within every group you will get someone who thinks a bit differently than the 'norm'.

[alter idem]

The mob was after one thing only - Joseph. That is why when Joseph fell through the window, the mob on the stairs left the building to pursue him. They were not interested in Taylor and Richards.

I believe Willard Richards said that the mob scattered only when they heard others shouting "the Mormons are coming!"(which wasn't true but he thought it saved their lives)--otherwise, he and Taylor would have been killed as well. I don't think the mob was being selective.

[HanClinto]

John Larsen and others labor under the false conception that to qualify as a martyr, one must passively submit to death.

Maybe *this* is where people keep thinking I'm trying to say that JS wasn't a martyr. By the definition that seems to have the most popular support in this thread, any person who is killed for refusing to give up their beliefs (such as the thousands and millions of soldiers killed over issues like slavery in the Civil War) are all martyrs.

To be perfectly clear, I'm only suggesting that in order for one to qualify as a "lamb to the slaughter," one must passively submit to death. I'm fine giving JS the moniker of "martyr", especially if we use the definition that Scott Lloyd put forth.

--clint

[Daniel Peterson]

Maybe *this* is where people keep thinking I'm trying to say that JS wasn't a martyr. To be perfectly clear, I'm suggesting that in order for one to qualify as a "lamb to the slaughter," one must passively submit to death.

Which Joseph actually did. Both when he voluntarily recrossed the Mississippi to be taken into custody and when he went to the window at Carthage.

In the interim, though, he did not passively submit to the murder of his brother or to the attempted murder of the two innocent friends who were merely visiting him in the jail. To which I say Bravo!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

He wasn't shot point blank with an Uzi, for Pete's sake,

Who is Pete? Also I thought of terminator 2 the movie when Arnold gets up on the big rig and unloads the m16 into the t1000. Is that what happened to Hyrum? Lol.

Note it isnt funny what happened to Hyrum Smith, only funny about LoaP's comparison.

[HanClinto]

Which Joseph actually did. Both when he voluntarily recrossed the Mississippi to be taken into custody and when he went to the window at Carthage.

You're leaving out the part where he kicked the hornet nest by emptying a revolver hopelessly into a charging mob.

Particularly contrasted with Jesus' reaction to Peter cutting off the ear of the high priest's servant, I just see an incredibly stark difference, when the prophecies imply there should be more similarities.

[maklelan]

You're leaving out the part where he kicked the hornet nest by emptying a revolver hopelessly into a crowd.

He "emptied" three chambers. The crowd was an angry mob bent on killing him, and they were already firing shots at him. The hornets nest was already emptied, and any assertion to the contrary is utterly idiotic. Why you call his efforts "hopeless" I don't know, but he knew what his fate would be before he ever set foot in the jail, and the mob knew what his fate would be long before he ever fired a shot. He did nothing to instigate anything at that point.

Particularly contrasted with Jesus' reaction to Peter cutting off the ear of the high priest's servant, I just see an incredibly stark difference, when the prophecies imply there should be more similarities.

Like comparing when Paul got slapped by the high priest to when Jesus did? That kind of similarity? Perhaps you've just got a warped perspective on what does and does not constitute proper prophetic behavior. Since you have never actually been exposed to any prophetic behavior, I am inclined to accept that reasoning.

[MormonMason]

...

To be perfectly clear, I'm only suggesting that in order for one to qualify as a "lamb to the slaughter," one must passively submit to death....

Which he did in initially submitting to have himself confined to prison and which he afterward did again when he sat there quietly on the ground while the mob discharged their weapons into him. He did not die in the gunbattle. He died on the ground outside of the jail, defenseless, after being shot to death. He did not utter a word at that time and sat still as they fired lead balls into his body, killing him where he sat quietly.

[maklelan]

To be perfectly clear, I'm only suggesting that in order for one to qualify as a "lamb to the slaughter," one must passively submit to death. I'm fine giving JS the moniker of "martyr", especially if we use the definition that Scott Lloyd put forth.

--clint

I wonder if any of you have ever actually tried to slaughter a lamb. I have. Sure, they're calm while you are leading them out back where you have everything set up for them, but once the knife comes out they don't just sit there with a cute smile on their face. The insistence of the critics on this thread that he did not go as a lamb to the slaughter betrays an abysmal lack of understanding of what exactly that means.

[Scott Lloyd]

Maybe *this* is where people keep thinking I'm trying to say that JS wasn't a martyr. By the definition that seems to have the most popular support in this thread, any person who is killed for refusing to give up their beliefs (such as the thousands and millions of soldiers killed over issues like slavery in the Civil War) are all martyrs.

Soldiers in the Civil War were never in danger of death for refusing to announce anti-slavery convictions.

Let's not be ridiculous.

To be perfectly clear, I'm only suggesting that in order for one to qualify as a "lamb to the slaughter," one must passively submit to death. I'm fine giving JS the moniker of "martyr", especially if we use the definition that Scott Lloyd put forth.

--clint

Anyone with an agrarian background will attest that animals, when they have the sense that they are in danger, are anything but passive. The die is cast for the lamb going to the slaughter, but that doesn't mean the lamb is passive during the procedure.

Similarly, I am convinced that the die was cast when Joseph Smith submitted to the authorities at Carthage, and my conviction is that the Prophet knew it. But that doesn't mean he was required to submit passively for the Bible imagery to apply, especially when caring friends who were with him were in danger themselves. (Suppose Peter, when standing with Christ at the time the soliders took him, was on the verge of being killed as well. Would Christ have done nothing to prevent the disciple's death? Who knows? There was much for Peter to accomplish in his life.)

If anything, Joseph's resistance devolves to the further condemnation of the mobbers who murdered him, as they had to try that much harder to carry out their evil deed.

[alter idem]

You're leaving out the part where he kicked the hornet nest by emptying a revolver hopelessly into a charging mob.

Particularly contrasted with Jesus' reaction to Peter cutting off the ear of the high priest's servant, I just see an incredibly stark difference, when the prophecies imply there should be more similarities.

No...this is a strange way to look at this situation. When Joseph made the statement of going "as a lamb to the slaughter" he was referring to going to Carthage and allowing himself to be taken by his enemies. He felt that he was walking into certain death--which he was.

Joseph and his companions were sitting ducks in an upper room of the Jail. They did not "kick a hornets nest"-- a murderous mob descended on them in the jail and at this point, Joseph made a futile attempt to defend himself and his friends by shooting back at those who were shooting at them. Why should his desire to defend himself and his companions make him something other than a martyr. A martyr is someone who seals his testimony with his blood. Joseph and Hyrum were made martyrs by a deranged mob who took advantage of their vulnerable situation.

[Amulek]

The pocketwatch belonged to John Taylor, who was shot in the chest during the raid, but survived - quite possibly because of the pocketwatch.

Last time I visited the Church History Museum in SLC I was informed that this version of the story (which I had heard growing up) is no longer taught. If I remember right, I believe it had something to do with the damage to the pocket watch being caused by his falling upon something after being shot â?? rather than by the watch being physically struck by the bullet itself. I donâ??t have a hard reference, but if anybody else does I would love to see it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You're leaving out the part where he kicked the hornet nest by emptying a revolver hopelessly into a charging mob.

Particularly contrasted with Jesus' reaction to Peter cutting off the ear of the high priest's servant, I just see an incredibly stark difference, when the prophecies imply there should be more similarities.

Oh so if JS didnt have a gun then Im sure the mob would have left him alone. Is that what you are saying?

[Scott Lloyd]

You're leaving out the part where he kicked the hornet nest by emptying a revolver hopelessly into a charging mob.

"Kicked the hornet's nest"?

That's ridiculous! What do you think the mobbers would have done had Joseph not tried to fend them off? Given him a stern talking-to and then left?

Particularly contrasted with Jesus' reaction to Peter cutting off the ear of the high priest's servant, I just see an incredibly stark difference, when the prophecies imply there should be more similarities.

Was Peter in danger on this occasion? The scriptures don't say so. Why didn't the soldiers kill him after such an overtly violent act? What do think Christ would have done had they tried?

[HanClinto]

He "emptied" three chambers.

You're right -- I worded it insufficiently. He dropped the hammer on all 6 cylinders, but only 3 of them discharged properly.

The crowd was an angry mob bent on killing him, and they were already firing shots at him. The hornets nest was already emptied, and any assertion to the contrary is utterly idiotic. Why you call his efforts "hopeless" I don't know, but he knew what his fate would be before he ever set foot in the jail, and the mob knew what his fate would be long before he ever fired a shot. He did nothing to instigate anything at that point.

If you care to know, I merely meant "hopeless" in the sense that he was acting in a last-ditch "Alamo" style Hail-Mary last-stand, rather than waving a white flag of surrender rather than barring the door and trying to hold them off as long as possible.

It may have been effective in slowing them down for a little bit -- I can't help feeling that it was equally or more effective in causing the mob to increase their volley of fire.

Re: instigation -- I recognize that Joseph probably didn't fire the first shot -- I'm not saying that he instigated it. I'm merely examining how things played out when the armed mobs came to capture and kill Jesus and Joseph.

Like comparing when Paul got slapped by the high priest to when Jesus did? That kind of similarity? Perhaps you've just got a warped perspective on what does and does not constitute proper prophetic behavior. Since you have never actually been exposed to any prophetic behavior, I am inclined to accept that reasoning.

Paul never prophesied that he would be led like a lamb to the slaughter. Paul didn't draw these parallels to himself the same way that Joseph Smith drew parallels to Jesus. The closest that Paul said was that he would share in the sufferings of Christ. I respectfully submit that it's one thing to be abused in the same way, it's another to react in the same way.

Is it just me, or is it getting heated in here?

--clint

[emeliza]

Last time I visited the Church History Museum in SLC I was informed that this version of the story (which I had heard growing up) is no longer taught. If I remember right, I believe it had something to do with the damage to the pocket watch being caused by his falling upon something after being shot â?? rather than by the watch being physically struck by the bullet itself. I donâ??t have a hard reference, but if anybody else does I would love to see it.

The still tell the story of John Taylor's pocket watch when you go visit Cathage Jail.

[Aquilifer]

You're leaving out the part where he kicked the hornet nest by emptying a revolver hopelessly into a charging mob.

I think you're missing the part where the mob had arrived at the jail with painted faces and weapons, caused the guards to flee, and were charging up the stairs of the jail to take care of business. They were there to kill him, and there was no mistaking that intent. Surrender and negotiation were not among the limited options of the four people in that jail cell.

Taking a few shots at the attackers was waaaaaaaaay past the point of kicking the hornet's nest. That ship had sailed, the die was cast, etc, etc.

[HanClinto]

Oh so if JS didnt have a gun then Im sure the mob would have left him alone. Is that what you are saying?

"Kicked the hornet's nest"?

That's ridiculous! What do you think the mobbers would have done had Joseph not tried to fend them off? Given him a stern talking-to and then left?

I answered this earlier, when Bluebell asked the same question.

I replied:

I imagine if he had surrendered himself that he would have been killed as a lamb to the slaughter, either via lynching or firing squad. As far as his friends, I imagine things would have worked out similarly to the way it did, though if JS had been a little more preemptive in surrendering himself, his brother might not have been killed in the scuffle (if indeed the mob was only after Joseph).

[Daniel Peterson]

You're leaving out the part where he kicked the hornet nest by emptying a revolver hopelessly into a charging mob.

Yes, he certainly upset them. And to think that, until then, they were so serene and orderly!

I don't know that his attempted defense of his brother and his friends was hopeless. Many people, though filled with violent hatred, back down when they find themselves staring into hot lead. And, in fact, Willard Richards and John Taylor did actually, contrary to their own expectations, survive the onslaught of the mob.

Your response reminds me, though, of a small portion of an article that I wrote some years back, entitled "'Shall They Not Both Fall into the Ditch?' What Certain Baptists Think They Know about the Restored Gospel," FARMS Review 10/1 (1998):

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publicatio...10&number=1

I have a paragraph in a section of that lengthy essay that bears the subtitle "Fuel on the Fire of the Auto-da-F