Joseph Smith Died In A "shoot-out"

[Mudcat]

One must be careful about defining the word â??martyrâ? as simply dying for a religious cause. This casts a very wide net. Wouldnâ??t the 9/11 perpetrators then be defined as martyrs? Or Japanese Kamikaze pilots? Or Palestine who blow themselves up on buses?

I donâ??t mean to imply Joseph was a terrorist. I think Joseph was justified in shooting back. I am just trying to hone in on the word martyr. Going back to the original post comparing the loaded word â??martyrâ? with the loaded words â??shoot outâ?. The latter implies Joseph was a criminal, the former implies he was innocent or passive. Both extremes are a stretch.

John

I would think that the people that support the same beliefs as terrorists, would support the fact that their actions are the actions of a martyr. After all, they are sacrificing themselves for their beleifs

However, the rest of the world would call them a terrorist.

I think Consig...has made a good point about the "defense of others".

However, to non LDS, the fact that JS fired at assailants (injuring and maybe killing men) with a smuggled in pistol, regardless of intention of defense, will put a "cloud" over his martyrdom to some degree.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I seem to be accused of making up my own definition of the word. I think I have made clear my understand. So those of you who don't like my definition, please give me a better definition.

Does wiki dictionary count:

A Christian martyr is one who is murdered or put to death for his Christian faith or convictions.

one who suffers for the sake of principle

Maybe Merriam-Websters will satisfy you?

1: a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion2: a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle

I see no clause about "not firing back" there.

Did OJ willing go to the LA County lockup? Eventually.

John

Right, compare OJ to Joseph Smith. THAT'S not ridiculous at all. [/sarcasm]

Actually, I do agree with the cause of the Palestinians. I just don't agree with these sorts of violent methods. There are many Palestinian martyrs. I just wouldn't count those who choose this path as martyrs.

John

So Joseph Smith was basically a suicide bomber? You can't be serious.

[maklelan]

This is compounded by the fact that Joseph was being held for violating the secular law, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press.

Perhaps you could tell us exactly which law was violated by that event.

[John Larsen]

I believe Joseph's act of martyrdom was when he surrendered to the law knowing he wasn't going to survive going to Carthage, and he had the means and power to avoid, and even fight that fate. The actual scene of his death, not the model martyr scene, but a single gun vs 200 guns was not a "battle" or "shoot out" in the context that he had any expectation to win.

But since Joseph's actions that precipitated the event, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press was illegal, this takes away the martyr points he would have received for submitting to the arrest. Slobodan Milo

[Buckeye]

I don't see how shooting back lessens the martyrdom. It is correct to say that a soldier "died for his countries" even if he didn't want to die and did everything he could to prevent his death, including shooting at the enemy.

It is also necessary to remember that Joseph's shots protected more than just himself. Though Hyrum was already dead, Richards and Taylor were still alive. The shots, coupled with Joseph then fleeing to, and falling through, the window, in all likelihood saved his friends' lives.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I think Consig...has made a good point about the "defense of others".

However, to non LDS, the fact that JS fired at assailants (injuring and maybe killing men) with a smuggled in pistol, regardless of intention of defense, will put a "cloud" over his martyrdom to some degree.

I look at his actions as pretty understandable, actually.

But since Joseph's actions that precipitated the event, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press was illegal, this takes away the martyr points he would have received for submitting to the arrest. Slobodan Milo

[Mudcat]

I believe Joseph's act of martyrdom was when he surrendered to the law knowing he wasn't going to survive going to Carthage, and he had the means and power to avoid, and even fight that fate. The actual scene of his death, not the model martyr scene, but a single gun vs 200 guns was not a "battle" or "shoot out" in the context that he had any expectation to win.

Then, are implying that JS's intent was to merely injure or kill as many as he could before he died. Would this then be an act of revenge and not defense?

[Lightbearer]

The Prophet Joseph Smith was a martyr and a hero in every sense of of the word. He willingly went to Carthage when he could have escaped to the Rocky Mountains. The reason for the "shoot-out" was in defence of his brethern who were in the jail with him. In fact he was fullfilling a promise that he would die for his friends...that was also the reason he leaped from the window to draw the mob away from the jail cell which probably saved John Taylor and Willard Richards life.

[emeliza]

I get John Larsen's point. Some people state that by shooting back and other actions JS was not willingly dying. Some don't believe he is a martyr, others do. We can't prove he was. Yes, he died for his beliefs, but he died fighting for them. So maybe hero is a better word. I can deal with either.

[Buckeye]

But since Joseph's actions that precipitated the event, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press was illegal, this takes away the martyr points he would have received for submitting to the arrest. Slobodan Milo

[LifeOnaPlate]

Joseph Smith doesn't need my approval, or the approval of John, Mudcat, or anyone else here to be seen in the eyes of God as a martyr.

Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr!

Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain

[cjcampbell]

Personally, I am going to continue to refer to Joseph Smith as a martyr, just as I am going to continue to call myself a Christian.

I am not going to let those who have a personal agenda against us create artificial definitions that are so narrow as to exclude me from calling myself a Christian or Joseph Smith a martyr.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Precipitating events, even if illegal, do not of themselves remove the martyr label. Paul would not have been martyred in Rome if he had not petitioned for Ceaser's aid. Christ broke many man-made laws (working on the sabbath, etc.), yet that does not lessen his death. Do you really think that all the early christians killed in the colleseum just sat there and didn't fight back?

Any Christian who ran from the lion is not a martyr.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Then, are implying that JS's intent was to merely injure or kill as many as he could before he died. Would this then be an act of revenge and not defense?

Perhaps avenging, though he may of had a sudden realization after his brother died in his arms that he was not the soul target for assassination there, and put up a fight in a bleak defense of his friends still alive, not necessarily in defense of himself, which in context of his statements when arrested, he was fully expecting that he was going to die and originally went unarmed.

[bluebell]

I get John Larsen's point. Some people state that by shooting back and other actions JS was not willingly dying. Some don't believe he is a martyr, others do. We can't prove he was. Yes, he died for his beliefs, but he died fighting for them. So maybe hero is a better word. I can deal with either.

I get his point to, but i disagree that people's opinions about shooting back etc. are a valid reason to change literal definitions of the word 'martyr'.

[LoudmouthMormon]

Hi John,

I appreciate the contributions you're making to this thread. I take interest in how we (meaning people in general) define a martyr, and what they presuppose one to look like. A comment:

But since Joseph's actions that precipitated the event, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press was illegal, this takes away the martyr points he would have received for submitting to the arrest.

Now, from where I'm standing, many of the original Christian martyrs were killed for breaking the law. It was usually the law against practicing Christianity. So, although they have a rightful claim to the title martyr because they were killed for believing in Christ, their killers claim they broke the law and were being justly punished.

Have you read Fox's book of Martyrs? If you're interested in the term like me, it's a good (and humbling) read.

When I read it, I was surprised by the events surrounding some of the martyrs. It kind of flies in the face of what you and I probably considered 'martyrable actions':

Polycarp tried to evade capture:

"Polycarp, the venerable bishop of Smyrna, hearing that persons were seeking for him, escaped, but was discovered by a child. After feasting the guards who apprehended him, he desired an hour in prayer, which being allowed, he prayed with such fervency, that his guards repented that they had been instrumental in taking him. He was, however, carried before the proconsul, condemned, and burnt in the market place."

Hermenigildus defended himself, and fled:

"Hermenigildus, a Gothic prince, was the eldest son of Leovigildus, a king of the Goths, in Spain. This prince, who was originally an Arian, became a convert to the orthodox faith, by means of his wife Ingonda. When the king heard that his son had changed his religious sentiments, he stripped him of the command at Seville, where he was governor, and threatened to put him to death unless he renounced the faith he had newly embraced. The prince, in order to prevent the execution of his father's menaces, began to put himself into a posture of defence; and many of the orthodox persuasion in Spain declared for him. The king, exasperated at this act of rebellion, began to punish all the orthodox Christians who could be seized by his troops, and thus a very severe persecution commenced: he likewise marched against his son at the head of a very powerful army. The prince took refuge in Seville, from which he fled, and was at length besieged and taken at Asieta. Loaded with chains, he was sent to Seville, and at the feast of Easter refusing to receive the Eucharist from an Arian bishop, the enraged king ordered his guards to cut the prince to pieces, which they punctually performed, April 13, A.D. 586."

Seven soldiers tried to escape:

"In the year of our Lord 251, the emperor Decius having erected a pagan temple at Ephesus, he commanded all who were in that city to sacrifice to the idols. This order was nobly refused by seven of his own soldiers, viz. Maximianus, Martianus, Joannes, Malchus, Dionysius, Seraion, and Constantinus. The emperor wishing to win these soldiers to renounce their faith by his entreaties and lenity, gave them a considerable respite until he returned from an expedition. During the emperor's absence, they escaped, and hid themselves in a cavern; which the emperor being informed of at his return, the mouth of the cave was closed up, and they all perished with hunger."

Fabian was martyred not because he professed Christ, but for other reasons:

"Fabian, the bishop of Rome, was the first person of eminence who felt the severity of this persecution. The deceased emperor, Philip, had, on account of his integrity, committed his treasure to the care of this good man. But Decius, not finding as much as his avarice made him expect, determined to wreak his vengeance on the good prelate. He was accordingly seized; and on January 20, A.D. 250, he suffered decapitation."

Nichomachus actually recanted his faith:

"Nichomachus, being brought before the proconsul as a Christian, was ordered to sacrifice to the pagan idols. Nichomachus replied, "I cannot pay that respect to devils, which is only due to the Almighty." This speech so much enraged the proconsul that Nichomachus was put to the rack. After enduring the torments for a time, he recanted; but scarcely had he given this proof of his frailty, than he fell into the greatest agonies, dropped down on the ground, and expired immediately."

Agatha was killed by the pretext that she was a Christian, but in reality because she refused the sexual advances of the Governor of Sicily:

"Agatha, a Sicilian lady, was not more remarkable for her personal and acquired endowments, than her piety; her beauty was such, that Quintian, governor of Sicily, became enamored of her, and made many attempts upon her chastity without success. In order to gratify his passions with the greater conveniency, he put the virtuous lady into the hands of Aphrodica, a very infamous and licentious woman. This wretch tried every artifice to win her to the desired prostitution; but found all her efforts were vain; for her chastity was impregnable, and she well knew that virtue alone could procure true happiness. Aphrodica acquainted Quintian with the inefficacy of her endeavors, who, enaged to be foiled in his designs, changed his lust into resentment. On her confessing that she was a Christian, he determined to gratify his revenge, as he could not his passion. Pursuant to his orders, she was scourged, burnt with red-hot irons, and torn with sharp hooks. Having borne these torments with admirable fortitude, she was next laid naked upon live coals, intermingled with glass, and then being carried back to prison, she there expired on February 5, 251."

Susanna was martyred because she didn't want to enter into arranged marriage:

"Susanna, the niece of Caius, bishop of Rome, was pressed by the emperor Diocletian to marry a noble pagan, who was nearly related to him. Refusing the honor intended her, she was beheaded by the emperor's order."

Didymus was martyred because he tried to save an innocent young lady from disgrace:

"Theodora, a beautiful young lady of Antioch, on refusing to sacrifice to the Roman idols, was condemned to the stews, that her virtue might be sacrificed to the brutality of lust. Didymus, a Christian, disguised himself in the habit of a Roman soldier, went to the house, informed Theodora who he was, and advised her to make her escape in his clothes. This being effected, and a man found in the brothel instead of a beautiful lady, Didymus was taken before the president, to whom confessing the truth, and owning that he was a Christian the sentence of death was immediately pronounced against him. Theodora, hearing that her deliverer was likely to suffer, came to the judge, threw herself at his feet, and begged that the sentence might fall on her as the guilty person; but, deaf to the cries of the innocent, and insensible to the calls of justice, the inflexible judge condemned both; when they were executed accordingly, being first beheaded, and their bodies afterward burnt."

An unnamed Christian was martyred because he destroyed a published edict:

"Diocletian and Galerius, who, not contented with burning the books, had the church levelled with the ground. This was followed by a severe edict, commanding the destruction of all other Christian churches and books; and an order soon succeeded, to render Christians of all denomination outlaws.

The publication of this edict occasioned an immediate martyrdom, for a bold Christian not only tore it down from the place to which it was affixed, but execrated the name of the emperor for his injustice. A provocation like this was sufficient to call down pagan vengeance upon his head; he was accordingly seized, severely tortured, and then burned alive."

[i wonder if he would still be considered a martyr if the Roman's had printing presses...]

In chapter IV, Fox's book of martyrs now tells stories of people persecuted by the Church of Rome. "We come now to a period when persecution, under the guise of Christianity, committed more enormities than ever disgraced the annals of paganism."

The Earl of Toulouse is considered a martyr, even though he fought back militarily, and even recanted:

"The brave earl defended Toulouse and other places with the most heroic bravery and various success against the pope's legates and Simon, earl of Montfort, a bigoted Catholic nobleman. Unable to subdue the earl of Toulouse openly, the king of France, and the queen mother, and three archbishops raised another formidable army, and had the art to persuade the earl of Toulouse to come to a conference, when he was treacherously seized upon, made a prisoner, forced to appear barefooted and bareheaded before his enemies, and compelled to subscribe an abject recantation. This was followed by a severe persecution against the Albigenses; and express orders that the laity should not be permitted to read the sacred Scriptures."

Fox's book records countless nameless Protestants as martyrs, being murdered by French soldiers, althouth they made no specific stand directly about their faith.

"This horrid butchery was not confined merely to the city of Paris. The like orders were issued from court to the governors of all the provinces in France; so that, in a week's time, about one hundred thousand Protestants were cut to pieces in different parts of the kingdom!"

Many martyrs tried to buy their freedom, but were killed anyway:

"Many who gave great sums of money for their ransom were immediately after slain; and several towns, which were under the king's promise of protection and safety, were cut off as soon as they delivered themselves up, on those promises, to his generals or captains."

"At Penna, after promising them safety, three hundred were inhumanly butchered; and five and forty at Albia, on the Lord's Day."

LM

[Buckeye]

Imagine if Joseph hadn't used the pistol. Not only would his friends have likely died with him, but he'd now be facing charges of disloyalty by not doing all in his power to protect his friends. Damned if you, or don't.

So, mudcat, let me ask you a question. You live in 100 AD. You are put in the colleseum, together with your 12 year old daughter, to be killed for believing in Christ. Do you:

1) Kneel, pray, and die?

2) Defend your life and your daughter's life, but still die?

3) Defend only your daughter's life, but still die?

4) other.

[HanClinto]

Who said anything about the martyrdom having to directly parallel the death of the Savior?

I was only saying that JS made a prophecy about himself that closely paralleled the language of a prophecy made about Christ. Joseph Smith drew that parallel -- not me.

--clint

[consiglieri]

But would he have been considered a fugitive after he was in Cathage Jail? I thought at the point he was put into jail again, he was no longer a fugitive, but a captive. Maybe I am wrong.

Well, actually I think he would still have been a fugitive from justice in Missouri, even though he had been taken into custody in Illinois on Illinois charges.

Just trying to be fair here.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[bluebell]

Hi John,

I appreciate the contributions you're making to this thread. I take interest in how we (meaning people in general) define a martyr, and what they presuppose one to look like. A comment:

Now, from where I'm standing, many of the original Christian martyrs were killed for breaking the law. It was usually the law against practicing Christianity. So, although they have a rightful claim to the title martyr because they were killed for believing in Christ, their killers claim they broke the law and were being justly punished.

Have you read Fox's book of Martyrs? If you're interested in the term like me, it's a good (and humbling) read.

When I read it, I was surprised by the events surrounding some of the martyrs. It kind of flies in the face of what you and I probably considered 'martyrable actions':

Polycarp tried to evade capture:

"Polycarp, the venerable bishop of Smyrna, hearing that persons were seeking for him, escaped, but was discovered by a child. After feasting the guards who apprehended him, he desired an hour in prayer, which being allowed, he prayed with such fervency, that his guards repented that they had been instrumental in taking him. He was, however, carried before the proconsul, condemned, and burnt in the market place."

Hermenigildus defended himself, and fled:

"Hermenigildus, a Gothic prince, was the eldest son of Leovigildus, a king of the Goths, in Spain. This prince, who was originally an Arian, became a convert to the orthodox faith, by means of his wife Ingonda. When the king heard that his son had changed his religious sentiments, he stripped him of the command at Seville, where he was governor, and threatened to put him to death unless he renounced the faith he had newly embraced. The prince, in order to prevent the execution of his father's menaces, began to put himself into a posture of defence; and many of the orthodox persuasion in Spain declared for him. The king, exasperated at this act of rebellion, began to punish all the orthodox Christians who could be seized by his troops, and thus a very severe persecution commenced: he likewise marched against his son at the head of a very powerful army. The prince took refuge in Seville, from which he fled, and was at length besieged and taken at Asieta. Loaded with chains, he was sent to Seville, and at the feast of Easter refusing to receive the Eucharist from an Arian bishop, the enraged king ordered his guards to cut the prince to pieces, which they punctually performed, April 13, A.D. 586."

Seven soldiers tried to escape:

"In the year of our Lord 251, the emperor Decius having erected a pagan temple at Ephesus, he commanded all who were in that city to sacrifice to the idols. This order was nobly refused by seven of his own soldiers, viz. Maximianus, Martianus, Joannes, Malchus, Dionysius, Seraion, and Constantinus. The emperor wishing to win these soldiers to renounce their faith by his entreaties and lenity, gave them a considerable respite until he returned from an expedition. During the emperor's absence, they escaped, and hid themselves in a cavern; which the emperor being informed of at his return, the mouth of the cave was closed up, and they all perished with hunger."

Fabian was martyred not because he professed Christ, but for other reasons:

"Fabian, the bishop of Rome, was the first person of eminence who felt the severity of this persecution. The deceased emperor, Philip, had, on account of his integrity, committed his treasure to the care of this good man. But Decius, not finding as much as his avarice made him expect, determined to wreak his vengeance on the good prelate. He was accordingly seized; and on January 20, A.D. 250, he suffered decapitation."

Nichomachus actually recanted his faith:

"Nichomachus, being brought before the proconsul as a Christian, was ordered to sacrifice to the pagan idols. Nichomachus replied, "I cannot pay that respect to devils, which is only due to the Almighty." This speech so much enraged the proconsul that Nichomachus was put to the rack. After enduring the torments for a time, he recanted; but scarcely had he given this proof of his frailty, than he fell into the greatest agonies, dropped down on the ground, and expired immediately."

Agatha was killed by the pretext that she was a Christian, but in reality because she refused the sexual advances of the Governor of Sicily:

"Agatha, a Sicilian lady, was not more remarkable for her personal and acquired endowments, than her piety; her beauty was such, that Quintian, governor of Sicily, became enamored of her, and made many attempts upon her chastity without success. In order to gratify his passions with the greater conveniency, he put the virtuous lady into the hands of Aphrodica, a very infamous and licentious woman. This wretch tried every artifice to win her to the desired prostitution; but found all her efforts were vain; for her chastity was impregnable, and she well knew that virtue alone could procure true happiness. Aphrodica acquainted Quintian with the inefficacy of her endeavors, who, enaged to be foiled in his designs, changed his lust into resentment. On her confessing that she was a Christian, he determined to gratify his revenge, as he could not his passion. Pursuant to his orders, she was scourged, burnt with red-hot irons, and torn with sharp hooks. Having borne these torments with admirable fortitude, she was next laid naked upon live coals, intermingled with glass, and then being carried back to prison, she there expired on February 5, 251."

Susanna was martyred because she didn't want to enter into arranged marriage:

"Susanna, the niece of Caius, bishop of Rome, was pressed by the emperor Diocletian to marry a noble pagan, who was nearly related to him. Refusing the honor intended her, she was beheaded by the emperor's order."

Didymus was martyred because he tried to save an innocent young lady from disgrace:

"Theodora, a beautiful young lady of Antioch, on refusing to sacrifice to the Roman idols, was condemned to the stews, that her virtue might be sacrificed to the brutality of lust. Didymus, a Christian, disguised himself in the habit of a Roman soldier, went to the house, informed Theodora who he was, and advised her to make her escape in his clothes. This being effected, and a man found in the brothel instead of a beautiful lady, Didymus was taken before the president, to whom confessing the truth, and owning that he was a Christian the sentence of death was immediately pronounced against him. Theodora, hearing that her deliverer was likely to suffer, came to the judge, threw herself at his feet, and begged that the sentence might fall on her as the guilty person; but, deaf to the cries of the innocent, and insensible to the calls of justice, the inflexible judge condemned both; when they were executed accordingly, being first beheaded, and their bodies afterward burnt."

An unnamed Christian was martyred because he destroyed a published edict:

"Diocletian and Galerius, who, not contented with burning the books, had the church levelled with the ground. This was followed by a severe edict, commanding the destruction of all other Christian churches and books; and an order soon succeeded, to render Christians of all denomination outlaws.

The publication of this edict occasioned an immediate martyrdom, for a bold Christian not only tore it down from the place to which it was affixed, but execrated the name of the emperor for his injustice. A provocation like this was sufficient to call down pagan vengeance upon his head; he was accordingly seized, severely tortured, and then burned alive."

[i wonder if he would still be considered a martyr if the Roman's had printing presses...]

In chapter IV, Fox's book of martyrs now tells stories of people persecuted by the Church of Rome. "We come now to a period when persecution, under the guise of Christianity, committed more enormities than ever disgraced the annals of paganism."

The Earl of Toulouse is considered a martyr, even though he fought back militarily, and even recanted:

"The brave earl defended Toulouse and other places with the most heroic bravery and various success against the pope's legates and Simon, earl of Montfort, a bigoted Catholic nobleman. Unable to subdue the earl of Toulouse openly, the king of France, and the queen mother, and three archbishops raised another formidable army, and had the art to persuade the earl of Toulouse to come to a conference, when he was treacherously seized upon, made a prisoner, forced to appear barefooted and bareheaded before his enemies, and compelled to subscribe an abject recantation. This was followed by a severe persecution against the Albigenses; and express orders that the laity should not be permitted to read the sacred Scriptures."

Fox's book records countless nameless Protestants as martyrs, being murdered by French soldiers, althouth they made no specific stand directly about their faith.

"This horrid butchery was not confined merely to the city of Paris. The like orders were issued from court to the governors of all the provinces in France; so that, in a week's time, about one hundred thousand Protestants were cut to pieces in different parts of the kingdom!"

Many martyrs tried to buy their freedom, but were killed anyway:

"Many who gave great sums of money for their ransom were immediately after slain; and several towns, which were under the king's promise of protection and safety, were cut off as soon as they delivered themselves up, on those promises, to his generals or captains."

"At Penna, after promising them safety, three hundred were inhumanly butchered; and five and forty at Albia, on the Lord's Day."

LM

Incredibly interesting LM.

[emeliza]

I get his point to, but i disagree that people's opinions about shooting back etc. are a valid reason to change literal definitions of the word 'martyr'.

I thought they were stating his situation didn't met the definition because the definition included willing. I personally don't think the willing is what matters though....especially in light of the comment about the Christians killed by lions in the collesuem. They were most likely not willing to be eaten by lions, however they weren't going to renounce their faith in light of the consequences. JS was the same way. He did not renounce his faith in light of the consequences that did end in his death. He might not have realized he was going to die (though I think he did), but he definitely knew he was going to have some problems as he had been for many years. I mean....he didn't renounce it when he was tarred and feathered. So my thought is the willingness is more about not changing your stanze to avoid the problem, rather than not fighting back.

Did I make sense to others or just in my own head?

[mledbetter]

But since Joseph's actions that precipitated the event, namely the destruction of the Nauvoo press was illegal, this takes away the martyr points he would have received for submitting to the arrest. Slobodan Milo

[bluebell]

I thought they were stating his situation didn't met the definition because the definition included willing. I personally don't think the willing is what matters though....especially in light of the comment about the Christians killed by lions in the collesuem. They were most likely not willing to be eaten by lions, however they weren't going to renounce their faith in light of the consequences. JS was the same way. He did not renounce his faith in light of the consequences that did end in his death. He might not have realized he was going to die (though I think he did), but he definitely knew he was going to have some problems as he had been for many years. I mean....he didn't renounce it when he was tarred and feathered. So my thought is the willingness is more about not changing your stanze to avoid the problem, rather than not fighting back.

Did I make sense to others or just in my own head?

No, i think you made good sense and i agree that he willingly went to carthage, even though he believed he would die through that decision.

[consiglieri]

I think that LoudMouthMormon's citations from Foxe's Book of Martyrs helps to inform our discussion of just what constitutes a martyr.

If somebody says Joseph Smith was not a martyr because he "fought back," or because he "broke the law," and is equally willing to exclude some of the early Christian martyrs on the same basis, then that is at least applying the term equally, I suppose.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[John Larsen]

Does wiki dictionary count:

Maybe Merriam-Websters will satisfy you?

This will allow me to sum up my point nicely:

1: a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion

1. Because Joseph fought back many would say that Joseph was not a martyr.

2. Because Joseph was being held on criminal charge which were apparently valid, the second clause of â??witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion was not met.

2: a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle

1. Because Joseph fought back, many would say that it wasnâ??t a sacrifice.

2. Because Joseph life ended while defending against secular charges, some would say that he didnâ??t die for the â??sake of a [religious] principle.â?

Right, compare OJ to Joseph Smith. THAT'S not ridiculous at all. [/sarcasm]

â?¦

So Joseph Smith was basically a suicide bomber? You can't be serious.

My Comparison of Joseph to Slobodan Milo