One of the Hardest Conepts for Me to Grasp...

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

All this talk about Gods has made me curious as well.

Are the Gods organized in a Quorum with the High God as President or is it more like a group with a group leader?

Do the Gods conduct their meetings in a Celestial auditorium? Do the Gods have a Celestial rules-of-order to allow for well run meetings? What is the speculation about these things?

T "Q" continuum.

[Lightbearer]

Personally, I don't believe in the Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden account as recorded in the scriptures. I realize that I'm going to be condemn by several for saying that. I believe that the early civilizations weren't very good at philosophy, but they were very good at telling stories, so when they wanted to explain the beginning of mankind, the Garden and Adam and Eve account was a great way of doing it. The only problem is, as the understanding of this culture disappeared, so did the understanding of the story.

Even within the Church, I have never understood how Adam and Eve could be totally lacking in their knowledge of what was right and what was wrong or why God would create them totally ignorant of the difference between right and wrong. I have come to believe that, in the story, they knew the difference and it wasn't until they chose to not act in harmony with God's will were they kicked out of the Garden. I can see a bit of that story in everybody's life, especially mine.

I know that the account of Adam and Eve in the Garden is hard to accept for some people, but the fact is it is linked with our belief in the atonement of Christ. And it is spoken of so often in the scriptures one would have to conclude that all of the scriptures are wrong or telling us lies to hold such a position. I do think that there is a lot we do not understand about the creation and the fall, but I do not "thow out the baby with the bathwater." What do these verses mean:

(Alma 42:3-10) "Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruitâ??And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God. For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated. But behold, it was appointed unto man to dieâ??therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earthâ??and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man. And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will. Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness. Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death. Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state."

I cannot see how anyone can believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and reject the doctrine of the fall, for without the fall there is no need for an atonement.

As far as Adam and Eve being prototypes of each of us, yes there is a definate connection, in fact there is a connection between us and the fall itself:

(Mosiah 3:19) "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."

For me it is no harder to believe in Adam and Eve and the Fall as it is to believe in Christ and the resurrection. As for why God created Adam and Eve innocent, I think that has a lot to do with the "veil of forgetfullness" that cover all our minds so we can live by faith. I do not fully understand why God could not create them with a "knowledge of good and evil" but I believe it had to do with agency and I think the veil and that by all things being created in a paradisical state it was a "neutral state" and from there men had to fall to experience mortality. I think that all of us inherit the "knowledge of good and evil" by virtue of our being born as decendants of Adam and Eve. As for the culture of the ancients and their "storytelling" and that Adam and Eve being just a legend this directly contradicts modern revelation:

(Moses 6:45-57) "And death hath come upon our fathers; nevertheless we know them, and cannot deny, and even the first of all we know, even Adam. For a book of remembrance we have written among us, according to the pattern given by the finger of God; and it is given in our own language. And as Enoch spake forth the words of God, the people trembled, and could not stand in his presence. And he said unto them: Because that Adam fell, we are; and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe. Behold Satan hath come among the children of men, and tempteth them to worship him; and men have become carnal, sensual, and devilish, and are shut out from the presence of God. But God hath made known unto our fathers that all men must repent. And he called upon our father Adam by his own voice, saying: I am God; I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh. And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you. And our father Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden. Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world. And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good. And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment. Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time."

Thus Adam was taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ and is a dispensation head and he was a real man and he and Eve fell just as the scriptures say they did.

[cdowis]

A quick summary of your original post and our answers:

So, if God was a man and their was a God that made him (following the same line of logic) and was at one point a man....and so on.

Well, it sort of sets a scenario for an infinite number of Gods streaming back through time. Each one apparantley creating their own worlds from pre-existing matter. Here are my questions about this theory.

Was there a first God, if so was he a man first?

No. There is no "first" anything. For example, which came first, the chicken or the egg? The answer is that they are co-eternal. There has always been chickens, there have always been eggs. Every chicken came from an egg, and every egg came from a chicken.

Who made matter or was it constant?

It has always existed.

If matter is finite...why haven't we already run out?

It is infinite.

. If you have something like this in previous posts feel free to paste'em in. I know there are a lot "thinkers" on this site..your input is most welcome. BTW, I will probably ask more questions along the way

Thanks,

Mud

[Mudcat]

Oh bother...and just when we I thought we were all getting along so well.

Then you would be wrong in the first part of that understanding (as are all anti-mormons).

Obi,

That is a great opening line. You should use it all the time, especially if you go on a mission. (lol)

Guess I'll have to hop out of the old meditation chamber and put my game face on.

Matter can be neither created or destroyed, but only changed.

Never learned basic science?

Matter is Eternal, thus Infinate.

Yes, I get the concept of the law of conservation of matter and energy "Matter can be neither created or destroyed, but only changed". Did you know that same law states that there is only so much matter..and so much energy in the universe. Which means matter is infinite in duration but not in quantity. Its quantity is finite.

It seems to me that if God was created by another God who was created by another God and so on would mean there are an infinite amount of God's. Now these Gods were bound by the fact that they could only organize matter and not create it. These Gods, if they all had bodies and each body was made up of matter....well... since matter is finite in quantity and there are an infinite number of Gods consuming matter, we would have run out of matter to make Gods with and none of us would exist. But we do exist, so this train of logic doesn't seem the likely way things worked out.

May the Force be with you,

Darth Mudcat

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

7,000 year old Earth? What do you think? Is there an offical stand on this the LDS church takes?

Saw something on an evolution post and thought it applied here as well.

There is nothing offical even as far as the actual Bible is concearned, It simply doesnt say. It could be 6007 and 7 days, or it could be 1 day is = to 1000 years, so it could be 13,007 years old, Im assuming we just take our callendar. Sometimes the bible goes off of days as years then back to days then years, I know this is confusing but lets look at it. 1 year has 365 days and there are 7 time periods and 1000 years to each time period looks like this 365*1000*7*1000=2.5billion years

[urroner]

Oh bother...and just when we I thought we were all getting along so well.

Obi,

That is a great opening line. You should use it all the time, especially if you go on a mission. (lol)

Guess I'll have to hop out of the old meditation chamber and put my game face on.

Yes, I get the concept of the law of conservation of matter and energy "Matter can be neither created or destroyed, but only changed". Did you know that same law states that there is only so much matter..and so much energy in the universe. Which means matter is infinite in duration but not in quantity. Its quantity is finite.

It seems to me that if God was created by another God who was created by another God and so on would mean there are an infinite amount of God's. Now these Gods were bound by the fact that they could only organize matter and not create it. These Gods, if they all had bodies and each body was made up of matter....well... since matter is finite in quantity and there are an infinite number of Gods consuming matter, we would have run out of matter to make Gods with and none of us would exist. But we do exist, so this train of logic doesn't seem the likely way things worked out.

May the Force be with you,

Darth Mudcat

How many universes are out there? Is there any end to the number of universes? How many 2 dimensional universes can be stacked on top of each other in order to get a pile an inch tall? A hint, you can never stack enough to get an inch high.

How many three spatial dimensional universes can be stacked on top of each other in order to fill an 11+ dimensional universe? A hint, you can never stack them high enough to fill it. What created this matter has always existed and will always exist and apparently, there is an infinite supply of it.

[Mudcat]

urroner brought up a good point about the 4th dimension being time.

We being 3 dimensional beings are constrained to follow the natural course of time, like a boat without a paddle going down the river.

However, Is God?

Is he a 4th dimensional being that can be anywhere on the river(in time) whenever he chooses?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Oh bother...and just when we I thought we were all getting along so well.

Obi,

. Its quantity is finite.

May the Force be with you,

Darth Mudcat

This is true to a point, however, there is no way to prove that this "law" is true. It has been observed as much as our tiny little understanding can handle, but is this actually the case? Can you prove it?

[sean0scott]

Yes, I get the concept of the law of conservation of matter and energy "Matter can be neither created or destroyed, but only changed". Did you know that same law states that there is only so much matter..and so much energy in the universe. Which means matter is infinite in duration but not in quantity. Its quantity is finite.

It seems to me that if God was created by another God who was created by another God and so on would mean there are an infinite amount of God's. Now these Gods were bound by the fact that they could only organize matter and not create it. These Gods, if they all had bodies and each body was made up of matter....well... since matter is finite in quantity and there are an infinite number of Gods consuming matter, we would have run out of matter to make Gods with and none of us would exist. But we do exist, so this train of logic doesn't seem the likely way things worked out.

May the Force be with you,

Darth Mudcat

1. The quantity of matter is finite.

2. God was created by another God who was created by another God, ad infinitum.

3. Gods are bound in that they cannot create matter, only organize it.

4. If all Gods had bodies made up of matter, the God-making matter would have been depleted. (1)(2)(3)

5. If matter has been depleted, we (supposed Gods in embryo) could not exist.

6. We do exist.

7. Therefore the train of logic is flawed.

Is that right Mudcat?

[Mudcat]

1. The quantity of matter is finite.

2. God was created by another God who was created by another God, ad infinitum.

3. Gods are bound in that they cannot create matter, only organize it.

4. If all Gods had bodies made up of matter, the God-making matter would have been depleted. (1)(2)(3)

5. If matter has been depleted, we (supposed Gods in embryo) could not exist.

6. We do exist.

7. Therefore the train of logic is flawed.

Is that right Mudcat?

Yes/No/Maybe...but that is a great disection of my quote. Looking forward to your next post..gotta go play in a tennis match..cya

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

However, Is God [subject to time]?

[...]

IMO, yes. But I tend to think that G-d is subject to all of the forces, laws, etc. of the cosmos. I have heard some propose that He is simultaneously in all points of time: past, present, and future (which is why He is "all-knowing").

[Paul Ray]

1. The quantity of matter is finite.

2. God was created by another God who was created by another God, ad infinitum.

3. Gods are bound in that they cannot create matter, only organize it.

4. If all Gods had bodies made up of matter, the God-making matter would have been depleted. (1)(2)(3)

5. If matter has been depleted, we (supposed Gods in embryo) could not exist.

6. We do exist.

7. Therefore the train of logic is flawed.

Is that right Mudcat?

But who said the quantity of matter is finite?

I wouldn't trust anyone other than God.

[Mudcat]

How many universes are out there? Is there any end to the number of universes? How many 2 dimensional universes can be stacked on top of each other in order to get a pile an inch tall? A hint, you can never stack enough to get an inch high.

How many three spatial dimensional universes can be stacked on top of each other in order to fill an 11+ dimensional universe? A hint, you can never stack them high enough to fill it. What created this matter has always existed and will always exist and apparently, there is an infinite supply of it.

So, is there a 1 god per universe rule....If so, who makes the other universes for the gods to occupy.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So, is there a 1 god per universe rule....If so, who makes the other universes for the gods to occupy.

This goes back to the chicken or the egg.

[Mudcat]

But who said the quantity of matter is finite?

I wouldn't trust anyone other than God.

The same law of physics that said "matter can neither be created or destoyed", that law was hypothesized by man. I think it would be better written if it said, "Man can neither create or destroy matter, or so we think right now." Maybe with an underlying warning (like on a pack of cigarettes) "This law is offered only for a limited time and may change when we figure something else out"

I beleive that God created the laws of physics, matter, etc... and is not subject to them, and that this universe and the world we live in is held together by his will alone.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The same law of physics that said "matter can neither be created or destoyed", that law was hypothesized by man. I think it would be better written if it said, "Man can neither create or destroy matter, or so we think right now." Maybe with an underlying warning (like on a pack of cigarettes) "This law is offered only for a limited time and may change when we figure something else out"

I beleive that God created the laws of physics, matter, etc... and is not subject to them, and that this universe and the world we live in is held together by his will alone.

You realize that science can go only so far, in explaining things. We simply cant comprehend it all, let alone the number 1,000,000,000. Sure you can see it on the screen but try counting that high. Can you really comprehend it?

[Mudcat]

This goes back to the chicken or the egg.

Oh...BTW...which do you think came first the chicken or the egg?

Sorry just had to. No response neccessary.

[urroner]

The problem we are having here is our finite mind banging up against concepts that spill over into more dimensions than our mind can comprehend. I can understand something not having an end, but not for the life of me can I understand something without a beginning. It's just a concept that, while I understand has to exist, I just wrap my mind around that concept.

So, when I am asked if the amount of matter in the multiverse if finite and constant, I really don't know, but then again, I'm not going to worry about it either. I have more important things to worry about, like rearranging my cat hairball collection.

I have also learnt not to stick a sword in the sand and say "Here and no farther," because all God usually does is take a large cast iron frying pan and whack me up the side of the head and He'll say "I don't think so buddy." I also have to laugh at those who insist that they will never join the Church or that they will never leave the Church because I've both types do what they said would they would never do.

Oh...BTW...which do you think came first the chicken or the egg?

Sorry just had to. No response neccessary.

Actually, the chicken egg came first. The first chicken, assuming the it came from the egg, had parents who weren't chickens, but they were just barely not chickens, so the egg came first.

[Son]

Oh...BTW...which do you think came first the chicken or the egg?

Sorry just had to. No response neccessary.

God created the Chicken first, and the seed for the egg was within itself. Genesis explains it, we just choose to ignore it.

[sean0scott]

IMO, yes. But I tend to think that G-d is subject to all of the forces, laws, etc. of the cosmos. I have heard some propose that He is simultaneously in all points of time: past, present, and future (which is why He is "all-knowing").

It's actually a way to explain how his being all-knowing doesn't negate our free will.

...

[ed2276]

All this talk about Gods has made me curious as well.

Are the Gods organized in a Quorum with the High God as President or is it more like a group with a group leader?

Do the Gods conduct their meetings in a Celestial auditorium? Do the Gods have a Celestial rules-of-order to allow for well run meetings? What is the speculation about these things?

Please see David Bokovoy's Divine Council writings.

Kerry Shirts also has some podcasts and links about this at his site , The Backyard Professor.

I would just say that earthly things bear witness of heavenly. It would seem to me then that the gods are organized much the way that our quorums function here , as it appears there is a structure in the Divine Council which admits of debate and even trial , each of its members having a say before a decision is rendered. For instance , I believe that the nations were divided among the gods , one god per nation , with Jacob being Jehovah's inheritance...the total number being 70 nations , if I remember correctly , which corresponds to that quorum's earthly counterpart , the Sanhedrin and before that the 70 elders God commanded Moses to call.

There are more informed folks here who can go into greater detail about this than I.

[ed2276]

As an Evangelical Christian, I beleive God always was and matter, man, etc...is all his work.

Its my understanding that LDS theology teaches that God was a man first...and became an "exalted man" God who then organized our world, us, etc... out of pre-existing matter.

So, if God was a man and their was a God that made him (following the same line of logic) and was at one point a man....and so on. Well, it sort of sets a scenario for an infinite number of Gods streaming back through time. Each one apparantley creating their own worlds from pre-existing matter. Here are my questions about this theory.

Was there a first God, if so was he a man first?

Who made matter or was it constant?

If matter is finite...why haven't we already run out?

. If you have something like this in previous posts feel free to paste'em in. I know there are a lot "thinkers" on this site..your input is most welcome. BTW, I will probably ask more questions along the way

Thanks,

Mud

I think this was addressed on another thread recently , but I can't remember which one. Anyway , my short answer to this question is , "I don't know".

I have often wondered about this. If there was a time when there was a first God that means there would have been a time with no God. Assuming that there was just matter which then became intelligence , the question is how did the first being get formed and why? That being having been formed and intelligent , why would things have played out as they have? Why are things the way they are? Why did that first being have to do anything other than exist? Couldn't there have been another path taken that didn't require the creation of an earth? Why did there have to be such a thing as a law and sin and the need for a Saviour?

On the other hand , if God has always existed many of the same questions can be asked. But , in the first instance the same intial question has to be asked , why is God who He is? Why must things be as they are? Wasn't there another way? What need was there for anyone other than God to exist , that is , why did He create us?

So , whether God has always existed or whether there was a first God , the questions end up being the same and the answers are , at least for the present , unknowable and incomprehensible , at least to my mind. Either way , I cannot get my arms around the matter and come up with an answer to the questions, "Why and how?".

[ed2276]

http://www.mrm.org/topics/god-father/adam-...divine-doctrine

Ok , you've take occasion to use this thread as a forum to bring up Adam-God ; however , this thread is not about Adam-God. Mudcat asked questions completely unrelated to that subject. If you want to discuss Adam-God then may I suggest you open a thread dedicated to that subject.

[Mudcat]

Ok , you've take occasion to use this thread as a forum to bring up Adam-God ; however , this thread is not about Adam-God. Mudcat asked questions completely unrelated to that subject. If you want to discuss Adam-God then may I suggest you open a thread dedicated to that subject.

I agree, lets stay on topic. Its been good so far. This is the 1st thread Ive been on so far that we seem to actually be getting everyones thoughts, which I think is a good thing....not everyones arguments vs. counterarguments that have done to death. Don't get me wrong...I like that sort of thing to ...but we can do that on any other thread as well.

[Mudcat]

Where did your God originate? Sorry, your post causes me to ask questions as well.

He did not originiate...he was. It seems we both have difficult concepts in our thoughts on God..how he got here etc..

Nothing, no one, made God. He was before all things. He made (took nothing and made something) all things. We are here because he loves us. If it had to all begin somewhere, Im glad it began with him.

What is matter that it cannot generate more of itself? For instance, where did I come from in the light of my conception was only made up of 'matter seed'?

If matter couldn't generate and increase along with everything God has dominion over, there would be no trees, fruit, compost, etc.

Well, I don't think matter can make more of itself. I do think God can make more if he wants to. Light of conception? It sounds like your reffering to the pre-existence....I don't think we did pre-exist, but I don't want to spend a lot of time on this thread dealing with it.

As far as the trees/fruit and stuff go...there not really making matter in the sense that new matter(atoms) are being formed. They are just taking sustenance from the ground and converting it into apples, oranges, etc...Its pretty miraculous in and of itself..but it doesn't create any more matter than it did before it grew fruit. It just moves it around...so to speak.