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One of the Hardest Conepts for Me to Grasp...


Mudcat

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As an Evangelical Christian, I beleive God always was and matter, man, etc...is all his work.

Its my understanding that LDS theology teaches that God was a man first...and became an "exalted man" God who then organized our world, us, etc... out of pre-existing matter.

So, if God was a man and their was a God that made him (following the same line of logic) and was at one point a man....and so on. Well, it sort of sets a scenario for an infinite number of Gods streaming back through time. Each one apparantley creating their own worlds from pre-existing matter. Here are my questions about this theory.

Was there a first God, if so was he a man first?

Who made matter or was it constant?

If matter is finite...why haven't we already run out?

. If you have something like this in previous posts feel free to paste'em in. I know there are a lot "thinkers" on this site..your input is most welcome. BTW, I will probably ask more questions along the way

Thanks,

Mud

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As an Evangelical Christian, I beleive God always was and matter, man, etc...is all his work.

Its my understanding that LDS theology teaches that God was a man first...and became an "exalted man" God who then organized our world, us, etc... out of pre-existing matter.

So, if God was a man and their was a God that made him (following the same line of logic) and was at one point a man....and so on. Well, it sort of sets a scenario for an infinite number of Gods streaming back through time. Each one apparantley creating their own worlds from pre-existing matter. Here are my questions about this theory.

Was there a first God, if so was he a man first?

Who made matter or was it constant?

If matter is finite...why haven't we already run out?

. If you have something like this in previous posts feel free to paste'em in. I know there are a lot "thinkers" on this site..your input is most welcome. BTW, I will probably ask more questions along the way

Thanks,

Mud

Why is that any more difficult to grasp than a God who has always been, who, after an unfathomable amount of eternities, decided to create man and that this earth, less than a spec of dust in the infinite universe, is the only world He created with humans. Is it easy for you to grasp the fact that there is no end to the universe, that space has always existed.

T-Shirt

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[...]

Was there a first God,

Maybe. Maybe there was a set of first G-ds. Or maybe "G-d" isn't a being, but a shared essence amongst all divine entities. In that sense, there was probably a first "G-d." But then again, if we throw in the LDS belief that we are all eternal, then any gods/G-ds/Gods that exist, have existed, or will exist have in actuality always existed.

if so was he a man first?

I'd imagine that He is still a man.

Who made matter or was it constant?

No one made matter. Such is what science (and true religion :P ) teaches us.

If matter is finite...why haven't we already run out?

I donâ??t believe that matter being eternal (and not created) necessitates that it is also finite. G-d is eternal (and not created per se), and not finite.

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As an Evangelical Christian, I beleive God always was and matter, man, etc...is all his work.

I believe that too, in a sense. :P

Its my understanding that LDS theology teaches that God was a man first...and became an "exalted man" God who then organized our world, us, etc... out of pre-existing matter.

I think it is more correct to say that God, our Father, once became a man, like us, just as Jesus did, while still being God... and both before and after that our Father organized our world, us, etc... creating everything that was created out of what there was to work with.

So, if God was a man and there was a God that made him (following the same line of logic) and was at one point a man....and so on. Well, it sort of sets a scenario for an infinite number of Gods streaming back through time. Each one apparantley creating their own worlds from pre-existing matter.

Yes, I think you've got it, basically. We believe there are an infinite number of persons who are God, in some form, and each one of those persons can create what is created.

Here are my questions about this theory.

Was there a first God, if so was he a man first?

No, there was never a first God. All persons who are God are eternal.

There never was a beginning for God, or any of the persons who will ever be God.

Who made matter or was it constant?

Matter is eternal, just as all persons who are God are eternal.

There never was a beginning for matter.

There never was a universe full of absolutely nothing.

If matter is finite...why haven't we already run out?

Matter can't be destroyed. It simply becomes another form of matter, which with God's help, can become either what it once was at one time or remain another form of matter.

If you have something like this in previous posts feel free to paste'em in. I know there are a lot "thinkers" on this site..your input is most welcome. BTW, I will probably ask more questions along the way

I like responding to each person, personally, even though I may say the same things I have said to someone else. ;)

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As an Evangelical Christian, I beleive God always was and matter, man, etc...is all his work.

Its my understanding that LDS theology teaches that God was a man first...and became an "exalted man" God who then organized our world, us, etc... out of pre-existing matter.

So, if God was a man and their was a God that made him (following the same line of logic) and was at one point a man....and so on. Well, it sort of sets a scenario for an infinite number of Gods streaming back through time. Each one apparantley creating their own worlds from pre-existing matter. Here are my questions about this theory.

Was there a first God, if so was he a man first?

Who made matter or was it constant?

If matter is finite...why haven't we already run out?

. If you have something like this in previous posts feel free to paste'em in. I know there are a lot "thinkers" on this site..your input is most welcome. BTW, I will probably ask more questions along the way

Thanks,

Mud

I believe I can speak for most if not all of us, that this concept is hard to fully understand due to our natures. Does this mean that it is a flase concept if you cant understand it??

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I believe I can speak for most if not all of us, that this concept is hard to fully understand due to our natures. Does this mean that it is a flase concept if you cant understand it??

I think one of the keys to understanding is the knowledge that our natures are the same as God's nature, if we are truly born again of God.

... and I am in no way saying that we are now as perfect as our Father.

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As an Evangelical Christian, I beleive God always was and matter, man, etc...is all his work.

Its my understanding that LDS theology teaches that God was a man first...and became an "exalted man" God who then organized our world, us, etc... out of pre-existing matter.

So, if God was a man and their was a God that made him (following the same line of logic) and was at one point a man....and so on. Well, it sort of sets a scenario for an infinite number of Gods streaming back through time. Each one apparantley creating their own worlds from pre-existing matter. Here are my questions about this theory.

Was there a first God, if so was he a man first?

Who made matter or was it constant?

If matter is finite...why haven't we already run out?

. If you have something like this in previous posts feel free to paste'em in. I know there are a lot "thinkers" on this site..your input is most welcome. BTW, I will probably ask more questions along the way

Thanks,

Mud

First of all, God, Angels and men are all of the same species. We are also eternal beings, our spirits were born of Heavenly Parents. We are literally His spirit children, His offspring.
(Acts 17:28-29) "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and manâ??s device."
Now if we are indeed His offspring, then we also partake of His nature. Our spirits are capable of advancement and we came to this earth as a testing ground, a school for the gods so to speak.
(Romans 8:16-17) "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."
If we pass the tests of this mortal life and accept the Gospel then we overcome the flesh and are again born of God and become his sons and daughters and also heirs, even joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it that we inherit? Eternal life, or the type of life that God lives. Because of the atonement of Christ we are able to be made holy again and are able to be as God is:
(Revelation 3:21) "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."
So it is not so far fetched to think that through the cleansing blood of Christ we are able to overcome the world and sit with our Father in His throne. Jesus is our prototype, our example. He said "come follow me." As we do this we are able to become through His grace and our obediance to the Gospel of Jesus Christ like Him.
(Philipians 2:5) "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Also the following:
(Hebrews 5:8-9) "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

As for you question about matter being finite, where did you get that idea? Matter is eternal, thus it is by very definition infinite. Here is a scripture that explains some of our beliefs in this reguard:

(D&C 93:29-39) "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation. For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy. The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple. The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth. Light and truth forsake that evil one. Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God. And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers."
Thus we are eternal beings just as God is an eternal being, we are in a different state of progression than God is in. He has an eternal spirit and a resurrected eternal body of flesh and bone. Our bodies are at present earthly, our spirits are eternal and these spirits will determine the nature of what our resurrected body will be like. Hope this helps.
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All gods are from the beginning and have been and will continue to be through all eternity. They also passed through a probation yet still have existed forever.

I blame our pathetic inability to imagine a timestream beyond our own limited past, present, and future.

I blame the neoplatonists!

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All this talk about Gods has made me curious as well.

Are the Gods organized in a Quorum with the High God as President or is it more like a group with a group leader?

Do the Gods conduct their meetings in a Celestial auditorium? Do the Gods have a Celestial rules-of-order to allow for well run meetings? What is the speculation about these things?

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All this talk about Gods has made me curious as well.

Are the Gods organized in a Quorum with the High God as President or is it more like a group with a group leader?

Do the Gods conduct their meetings in a Celestial auditorium? Do the Gods have a Celestial rules-of-order to allow for well run meetings? What is the speculation about these things?

Actually I think it is more like the organization of a family council. But when I get there and find out for sure I'll let you know. :P
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All this talk about Gods has made me curious as well.

Are the Gods organized in a Quorum with the High God as President or is it more like a group with a group leader?

Do the Gods conduct their meetings in a Celestial auditorium? Do the Gods have a Celestial rules-of-order to allow for well run meetings? What is the speculation about these things?

I imagine that our imagination is not equipped to even begin to fathom how they interact. Anyone who has ever sampled eternity that I have talked to agrees that there is no human vocabulary to explain it. To those who haven't it sounds like gibberish. To those who have there is a sense of shared understanding but no way to communicate it.

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All this talk about Gods has made me curious as well.

Are the Gods organized in a Quorum with the High God as President or is it more like a group with a group leader?

Do the Gods conduct their meetings in a Celestial auditorium? Do the Gods have a Celestial rules-of-order to allow for well run meetings? What is the speculation about these things?

I imagine it's very much like a bunch of men sitting around and playing D&D. I really hate it when one of them rolls a double one in the middle of a big fight scene. Nothing like a critical fumble to mess up a good hack and slash scene.

Then there are those who take the Vow of Peace. They are wusses.

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Just a few more thoughts that may help Mudcat understand our (LDS) ideas:

We can see from scripture that God created man, and woman, in the beginning of the creation of this Earth, and that God did NOT create man and woman from out of nothing. God first created bodies from the dust (matter) of this Earth, and then God put the spirits of the man and woman inside the bodies he had created for them. I think special attention should be given to the fact that God said he was putting the spirits of the man and woman in their respective bodies, indicating that the man and woman already existed in some form, ie, as the breath of life, respectively, of each person.

It should be noted that We (LDS) also know from other revelations from God that God had earlier created, or organized, our spirits, from what our spirits were at that time... light and truth... or the essence of life.

Life, itself, or light and truth, cannot be created. The spirits of all beings are infinite, and/or eternal.

We will all go somewhere after this life, in some other form, forever.

There will never be an end to our existence, just as there never was a beginning to what we really are.

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All this talk about Gods has made me curious as well.

Are the Gods organized in a Quorum with the High God as President or is it more like a group with a group leader?

Do the Gods conduct their meetings in a Celestial auditorium? Do the Gods have a Celestial rules-of-order to allow for well run meetings? What is the speculation about these things?

I dunno, does Adam have a belly button?

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I imagine it's very much like a bunch of men sitting around and playing D&D. I really hate it when one of them rolls a double one in the middle of a big fight scene. Nothing like a critical fumble to mess up a good hack and slash scene.

Then there are those who take the Vow of Peace. They are wusses.

Better than that lame Vow of Poverty......obnoxious.

There also aren't critical fumbles anymore. The dragon just fails to eat you on a 1.

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I imagine it's very much like a bunch of men sitting around and playing D&D. I really hate it when one of them rolls a double one in the middle of a big fight scene. Nothing like a critical fumble to mess up a good hack and slash scene.

Then there are those who take the Vow of Peace. They are wusses.

Have you noticed that each person has their own dice?

Mine are loaded. :P

I dunno, does Adam have a belly button?

Jesus did. Why not Adam?

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Its my understanding that LDS theology teaches that God was a man first...and became an "exalted man" God who then organized our world, us, etc... out of pre-existing matter.

Yes. Just I can become a God and organize a world (or universe) out of pre-existing matter.

So, if God was a man and their was a God that made him (following the same line of logic) and was at one point a man....and so on. Well, it sort of sets a scenario for an infinite number of Gods streaming back through time. Each one apparantley creating their own worlds from pre-existing matter. Here are my questions about this theory.

Was there a first God, if so was he a man first?

No. It is all one eternal round. A trinitarian has the same problem only it is reached much quicker because there is only one generation of God. What came before God?

Who made matter or was it constant?

It has always existed in one form or another, so nobody made it, but it is certainly not in a constant state or amount as anyone who studies the universe knows.

If matter is finite...why haven't we already run out?

Moot.

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Why is that any more difficult to grasp than a God who has always been, who, after an unfathomable amount of eternities, decided to create man and that this earth, less than a spec of dust in the infinite universe, is the only world He created with humans. Is it easy for you to grasp the fact that there is no end to the universe, that space has always existed.

T-Shirt

Thats what my question would be as well. :P

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As an Evangelical Christian, I beleive God always was and matter, man, etc...is all his work.

Its my understanding that LDS theology teaches that God was a man first...and became an "exalted man" God who then organized our world, us, etc... out of pre-existing matter.

So, if God was a man and their was a God that made him (following the same line of logic) and was at one point a man....and so on. Well, it sort of sets a scenario for an infinite number of Gods streaming back through time. Each one apparantley creating their own worlds from pre-existing matter. Here are my questions about this theory.

Was there a first God, if so was he a man first?

Who made matter or was it constant?

If matter is finite...why haven't we already run out?

. If you have something like this in previous posts feel free to paste'em in. I know there are a lot "thinkers" on this site..your input is most welcome. BTW, I will probably ask more questions along the way

Thanks,

Mud

Within Mormon theology this is known as the Adam-God Theory. The concept was "borrowed' by Smith from Freemasonry's Kabbalistic roots, being no more then a remix of the Ain Sof/Adam Kadmon theory of hermetic gnosticism.

here's two examples of Smith's hermetic gnostics....

In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted [prepared] a plan to create the world and people it. When we begin to learn this way, we begin to learn the only true God, and what kind of a being we have got to worship.

Joseph Smith's King Follet Sermon - History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 302-317

and...

I will show from the Hebrew Bible that I am correct, and the first word shows a plurality of Gods; and I want the apostates and learned men to come here and prove to the contrary, if they can. An unlearned boy must give you a little Hebrew. Berosheit baurau Eloheim ait aushamayeen vehau auraits, rendered by King James' translators, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." I want to analyze the word Berosheit. Rosh, the head; Sheit, a grammatical termination, The Baith was not originally put there when the inspired man wrote it, but it has been since added by an old Jew. Baurau signifies to bring forth; Eloheim is from the word Eloi, God, in the singular number; and by adding the word heim, it renders it Gods. It read first, "In the beginning the head of the Gods brought forth the Gods," or, as others have translated it, "The head of the Gods called the Gods together."

Joseph Smith's Sermon on Plurality of Gods - History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473-479)

[note the word Berosheit....see Library: Joseph Smith's Translation Of Genesis 1:1

see also.... Joseph Smith and Kabbalah: The Occult Connection

However of note, when Spencer Kimball, declared the Adam God Theory as false doctrine....

We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance is the Adam-god theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine. (Spencer W. Kimball, Church News, 9 October 1976)

....he, in effect had labeled both Smith and Young as false prophets.....

But, as not to lose folks with this posting, a few definitions from the Kabbalistic Dictionary

Ain Sof (ah-een sof)

"Without end" in Hebrew. This is the title of God who is everywhere, immanent in all things. Ain Sof is the number 1 that appears over the number 0 when creation is about to manifest. Ain Sof has no attributes, because attributes can manifest only within existence, and existence is finite. Ain Sof is the second Veil of Negative Existence. Traditional Kabbalists us this word to refer to God.

Adam Kadmon

The primordial Atziluthic Man (The Kabod), called forth in the configuration of the ten Sephiroth, an Adam before the Adam of Genesis. He is the first of four reflections of God to become manifest. Conceived in human shape, Adam Kadmon contains everything that is needed to complete the task of Divine reflection. He is both the mirror and the viewer and has within his being will, intellect, emotion, and capacity for action. Traditionally, he is the fifth and highest World, providing the potential for the lower four.

Atziluth

The World of "Proximity;" the World of Emanation-one of the Four Worlds of the Tree of Life. All the dynamics and laws inherent in Atziluth are complete, except that nothing has happened. Time and space do not exist here because Atziluth is at the stage of pure Will.

see also.... The Forty Stages of Creative Process from God's Infinite Light to Our Physical World

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