cdowis Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 He did not originiate...he was. It seems we both have difficult concepts in our thoughts on God..how he got here etc..Nothing, no one, made God. He was before all things. He made (took nothing and made something) all things. We are here because he loves us. If it had to all begin somewhere, Im glad it began with him.I think there is a basic difference in our understanding of the word "God".Let's take an analogy. I am a father. That is my title and will not go away. It is always with me.Am I the only one with that title? Of course not.So, in a sense, you are correct. He, the Father of us all, did not "originate". No one made God, even as no one made me a father. Fathers have always existed, and will exist in the future, forever. God has always existed as well. It did not "begin" anywhere. It was always there.The universe is not full of "gods", but God.The LDS concept is probably best describe by the concept of patrimony.
urroner Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 This idea of God having always been God and creating everything from nothing is a difficult concept for people to understand. One can accept it quite easily, but to comprehend it is most difficult and it brings up several questions:1. Was there ever a time when God hadn't created anything?2. What prompted Him to start creating things?3. If God is completely external to a temporal dimension, how could the change of Him not creating to Him deciding to create have happen since change demands a temporal dimension?4. Is this the only world that God has created and populated with people whom He saved and damns or are there other worlds also?If no, what does He plan on doing for the rest of the eternities?If yes, who is the Savior of these other people?5. Why did God create a Hell for the torturing of souls? Couldn't He just have created beings that weren't capable of doing evil?6. Does God need anything external to Him or is He totally self-sufficient?If He needs anything external to Him, what is it (glory, laud, honor, love, etc.) and why does He need it?, If He doesn't need anything external to Him and is totally self-sufficient, then why did He create anything in the first place? Was He just lonely and felt unloved which would mean He needed some external stimulation?7. If the only purpose for us be saved is to honor God and love Him, how many of us loving Him and honoring Him will be enough before there is too much and why does He needs to love and honor Him (see above question about self-sufficiency)?
Nofear Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Mudcat actually asked an interesting question. Unfortunately, he didn't ask it the right way (made wrong assumptions about LDS theology). Still, it is a problem not at all understood by most LDS. 1. Suppose that the universe is infinitely old.2. Suppose that the universe is infinite in size and that matter is infinite.3. Suppose that immortal worlds are created, which in turn or not reorganized. They will continue infinitely.-> Why haven't we run out of matter to organize into temporal worlds?Blake Ostler made some comments that are interesting to infinite regress, but he didn't really address the issue. Though he does make a comment that answers the question.PS: Any comment about multiverses, extra-dimensions and other stuff merely begs the question and tends to be an entirely unnecessary distraction.
Mudcat Posted November 9, 2007 Author Posted November 9, 2007 Mudcat actually asked an interesting question. Unfortunately, he didn't ask it the right way (made wrong assumptions about LDS theology). Still, it is a problem not at all understood by most LDS. 1. Suppose that the universe is infinitely old.2. Suppose that the universe is infinite in size and that matter is infinite.3. Suppose that immortal worlds are created, which in turn or not reorganized. They will continue infinitely.-> Why haven't we run out of matter to organize into temporal worlds?Blake Ostler made some comments that are interesting to infinite regress, but he didn't really address the issue. Though he does make a comment that answers the question.PS: Any comment about multiverses, extra-dimensions and other stuff merely begs the question and tends to be an entirely unnecessary distraction.Clarification on 3. please. I understand the concept of matter being infinite in duration...are you also saying it is infinite in quantity...if that is the case, how do we have space (areas of no matter) if matter is infinite in quantity?
urroner Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Clarification on 3. please. I understand the concept of matter being infinite in duration...are you also saying it is infinite in quantity...if that is the case, how do we have space (areas of no matter) if matter is infinite in quantity?Some infinites are larger than other infinites. For example, I have a number line, which is infinite since there are no end to numbers, and on one number line, there is a tic on every whole number while on another number line, there is a tic on every other whole number. It's obvious that there are twice as many tics on number line 1 as on number line 2, but on each line there are an infinite number of tics.A = infinity B = 2A B = 2(infinity)B = infinityB != A (B does not equal A)
rameumptom Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Clarification on 3. please. I understand the concept of matter being infinite in duration...are you also saying it is infinite in quantity...if that is the case, how do we have space (areas of no matter) if matter is infinite in quantity?The D&C tells us that spirit is matter and light is matter, and that God's light fills the immensity of space. We are also told that some matter is so fine that we cannot see it. I guess that could include dark matter that scientists talk about.We really don't know how time, space and matter affect God, nor how he affects them. Beyond what is found in the scriptures, we don't have much. And even then, sometimes knowing HOW to correctly interpret what the scriptures tell us can be a major challenge.Whether there are multiverses, multi-dimensions, or just one single universe, we do not know. All we know is what has been revealed through revelation and science, and how we interpret these things falls into philosophical dimensions and patterns we can only guess at. For example, Blake Ostler suggests that God's omniscience is limited to the past and present; and that God does not know the future, except as a chess player can anticipate the next move(s). Others do believe God has a complete foreknowledge of all things in the future. Both ideas can be found and supported out of scripture. Until God clarifies it, we can just speculate and philosophize about which way God might comport himself and run the universe.
Paul Ray Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Clarification on 3. please. I understand the concept of matter being infinite in duration...are you also saying it is infinite in quantity...if that is the case, how do we have space (areas of no matter) if matter is infinite in quantity?There is an infinite amount of matter spread out across an infinite amount of space. There's no reason why matter must be all bunched up together, when there's an infinite amount of space for it to occupy.Just think about it, some more.IF there were limits to the universe, what is it that would be on the borders of the universe that would be limiting, or confining, the universe?There is space and then there are things that occupy space.With an infinite amount of space why should things be bunched up all together?And btw, the offer of the above information is void where prohibited.Check with your Dealer for details.
Paul Ray Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Some infinites are larger than other infinites. For example, I have a number line, which is infinite since there are no end to numbers, and on one number line, there is a tic on every whole number while on another number line, there is a tic on every other whole number. It's obvious that there are twice as many tics on number line 1 as on number line 2, but on each line there are an infinite number of tics.A = infinity B = 2A B = 2(infinity)B = infinityB != A (B does not equal A)That's a pretty interesting idea you have there, and I see some truth to it, but to say there are more infinites than other infinites I think you would have to say there are a limited number for each set of infinites and then count both sets of infinites to find out how many more infinites there are in one set than the other, and since there is no end to an infinite number of things that are infinite, unless you can find a way to count all of them, I would say there are and always will be more.
Paul Ray Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 The universe is not full of "gods", but God.I think it's more correct to state that the universe is full of has persons who are God.Edit: Heh, it's not exactly correct to state that it is full of anything, because there is and always will be room, or space, for the persons who are God to occupy.
Paul Ray Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 He did not originiate...he was. It seems we both have difficult concepts in our thoughts on God..how he got here etc..Nothing, no one, made God. He was before all things. He made (took nothing and made something) all things. We are here because he loves us. If it had to all begin somewhere, Im glad it began with him.You started out well, IMO, but then you veered off track by talking about a beginning to a being who never, ever, had a beginning.God, as a being, didn't have to begin anywhere. God has always been. God is eternal.... and God, as a being, consists of persons who are God.Edit: I re-read your post and now see that you said "if". Sorry. I failed to connect.
Paul Ray Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Oh...BTW...which do you think came first the chicken or the egg?Sorry just had to. No response neccessary.I'm of the opinion that chickens are eternal as well.... and that every other form of life is eternal... in the pure form of that form of life.For example, chickens originated, as far as we know, from jungle fowl, from which all the (other) breeds of chickens were "created". Perhaps that jungle fowl was "created" from another form of fowl, from somewhere else, perhaps even on some other planet, and then brought here by God for this Earth.I think it's possible.
Mudcat Posted November 9, 2007 Author Posted November 9, 2007 Some infinites are larger than other infinites. For example, I have a number line, which is infinite since there are no end to numbers, and on one number line, there is a tic on every whole number while on another number line, there is a tic on every other whole number. It's obvious that there are twice as many tics on number line 1 as on number line 2, but on each line there are an infinite number of tics.A = infinity B = 2A B = 2(infinity)B = infinityB != A (B does not equal A)I grasp the dimension (or quantum) mechanics you are inferring...endless amounts of 3 dimensional universes can be pulled from a 4th dimensional universe....and endless amounts of 4ths can be made from a 5th dimensional....however...this only delays the subject even if God is an 11th dimensional being. If we can become like him (occupying the same dimensional properties whatever they may be in whatever dimension) that is. Then that system (dimension) becomes a closed system that can not be advanced past or does not exist past. The concept of an infinite amount of Gods in said closed system would defy the physics of the law of conservation of matter/energy, the only way around it would be if God can create matter, space, time, whatever is in the other dimensions, etc.., in any given system.
thesometimesaint Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Mudcat:As there are an infinite number of fractional numbers between 0 and 1. Could there not be an infinite number of Gods within an infinite number of universes?
cdowis Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 I think it's more correct to state that the universe is full of has persons who are God.Almost. There is only one God."individuals who is God" is more accurate.
ed2276 Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Mudcat:As there are an infinite number of fractional numbers between 0 and 1. Could there not be an infinite number of Gods within an infinite number of universes? We also have the model we know about that might give us some clues. We have our solar system in which planets rotate around one another. Our solar system rotates within our galaxy. Our galaxy rotates around other galaxies within our known universe. Would it also be just as likely that our universe may revolve around , or even within , other universes? I read a piece a while ago , I can't remember who wrote it , about an idea that God may reside at the center of our galaxy. If this is the case , then it might be that there are other gods within their own galaxies.
thesometimesaint Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 ed2276:A Multiverse? Sure I think it is possible. But I don't know enough math to prove it.
Mudcat Posted November 9, 2007 Author Posted November 9, 2007 Mudcat:As there are an infinite number of fractional numbers between 0 and 1. Could there not be an infinite number of Gods within an infinite number of universes?No, I don't think so. Let me try to form an analogy that equates the problem with the dimensional mechanics. Lets say God lives in a 5th dimensional universe, his closed system...there is only so much matter in it. We will represent his universe as a giant room that is half filled with sand(matter in his universe) and a stack of paper that is endless in quantity but doesnt take up any space. Lets say God takes a piece of paper(this represents a 4th dimensional universe that he can create with no loss of sand, like that 0 and 1 thing you were talking about) and puts dots on the paper(the dots represent worlds that he populates). His objective is to get people that are living on those dots to become like him. When the do..they appear in the room and enough sand in that room dissappears to equal their mass. God gives them a piece of paper and they start doing what he is doing. At some point all the sand in the room will be run out and no more people will be able to become gods.
Paul Ray Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Almost. There is only one God."individuals who is God" is more accurate.No, no, no. It's totally correct and okay to refer to the persons in the plural sense.There IS only one God, as a being (singular sense), but there are persons who are God (plural sense)You've been corrupted by those conspiring anti-Mormons and mainstream Christians, cdowis.
urroner Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 No, I don't think so. Let me try to form an analogy that equates the problem with the dimensional mechanics. Lets say God lives in a 5th dimensional universe, his closed system...there is only so much matter in it. We will represent his universe as a giant room that is half filled with sand(matter in his universe) and a stack of paper that is endless in quantity but doesnt take up any space. Lets say God takes a piece of paper(this represents a 4th dimensional universe that he can create with no loss of sand, like that 0 and 1 thing you were talking about) and puts dots on the paper(the dots represent worlds that he populates). His objective is to get people that are living on those dots to become like him. When the do..they appear in the room and enough sand in that room dissappears to equal their mass. God gives them a piece of paper and they start doing what he is doing. At some point all the sand in the room will be run out and no more people will be able to become gods.But suppose this fifth dimension being has access to a sixth dimensional universe where there are an infinite number of fifth dimensional universes full of fourth dimensional papers. Plenty of room still.
Paul Ray Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 No, I don't think so. Let me try to form an analogy that equates the problem with the dimensional mechanics. Lets say God lives in a 5th dimensional universe, his closed system...there is only so much matter in it. We will represent his universe as a giant room that is half filled with sand(matter in his universe) and a stack of paper that is endless in quantity but doesnt take up any space. Lets say God takes a piece of paper(this represents a 4th dimensional universe that he can create with no loss of sand, like that 0 and 1 thing you were talking about) and puts dots on the paper(the dots represent worlds that he populates). His objective is to get people that are living on those dots to become like him. When the do..they appear in the room and enough sand in that room dissappears to equal their mass. God gives them a piece of paper and they start doing what he is doing. At some point all the sand in the room will be run out and no more people will be able to become gods.Keep it simple, please.What I know right now is that God is in the same universe that I am in.Can God be in another universe, or universes, as well? Sure, why not.Can God be in another dimension than the one I am in? Sure, why not.I know there are many spirits we can't see living on this planet with us, unless God allows them to show themselves to one or more of us, and I think it's okay to refer to that as another dimension.
Nofear Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Our galaxy rotates around other galaxies within our known universe.Our galaxy is gravitationally bound to other galaxies, but we aren't in anything we'd describe as an "orbit" like our planets orbit the sun. Would it also be just as likely that our universe may revolve around , or even within , other universes? Define universe.
Nofear Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 A Multiverse? Sure I think it is possible. But I don't know enough math to prove it.Good. Because nobody of any intellectual level has proof. For that matter, there isn't really any evidence of multiverses. It all pure speculation. Ditto for extra-dimensions beyond 3 space and 1 time.
ed2276 Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 ed2276:A Multiverse? Sure I think it is possible. But I don't know enough math to prove it.I'll just have to keep wathcing Num3ers then. I'm sure Charlie will eventually prove it mathematically.
ed2276 Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Keep it simple, please.What I know right now is that God is in the same universe that I am in.Can God be in another universe, or universes, as well? Sure, why not.Can God be in another dimension than the one I am in? Sure, why not.I know there are many spirits we can't see living on this planet with us, unless God allows them to show themselves to one or more of us, and I think it's okay to refer to that as another dimension.If the Big Bang Theory is correct would not God have had to be in another universe when this one came into existence?
Nofear Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 No, I don't think so.Multiple universes are not (yet?) a necessary solution for any philosophical problem concerning infinities with Mormonism. They are quite simply irrelevant. Possible? Perhaps (whatever we mean by "universe"), but not necessary.The answer to the question as I phrased it ("Why haven't we run out of matter to organize into temporal worlds?"), is because the cardinality (size) of the infinite of an uncountable set is larger than the cardinality of a countable set.That is to say:A) The amount of matter in an infinite universe can't be counted. It is an innumerable quantity.B) The number of exalted worlds/beings/etc are denumerable. Thy can be represented by an integer set of numbers.Thus -> There will always be enough matter for a new world to be organized from.If the Big Bang Theory is correct would not God have had to be in another universe when this one came into existence?That's a whole 'nother barrel of monkeys. I'd suggest we understand this first problem before opening that one.
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