MADB As Part Of Deconversion Narrative

[selek]

And I'd agree with you also. From your definition of "apostates-in-training" I assume you mean future exmormons. Strictly from my personal observations it seems that the majority of those coming to the boards eventually fall away. Either resigning formally or deciding to be a "new order mormon". Like you said about one in ten seem to choose to stay and believe.

My experience, of course, is somewhat different. I tend to agree with Stuess that those looking to believe will find reason to do so and those looking for excuses not to will likewise find them. I stand by my assertion, though, that most who come looking are looking for the latter. The numbers are not a representative sample of the Church membership- or even of those struggling.

However I disagree that it's important to know which is which. I think it's important to assume people are honest until you know otherwise and to treat everyone with equal measures of respect.

Equal respect, perhaps, but not equal license. MABD is a forum for inquiry and discussion. It should not become a hunting preserve for the disaffected, dishonest, and devilish.

There should be plenty of room for dissent and discussion, but not a single allowance for predation.

[Severian]

Do you really think monsters such as Shaf, Bob Betts, and Neighbor are here only to poke the tiger? Of course, not! They're here because they think they have a chance of picking off stragglers- and nothing more.

Do you think spoilers such as Severian are here only to share the misery of their own condescension, or because they think they've actually got a chance of influencing someone? I'm betting it's the latter.

That's why I've been so vocal and passionate in my defense of the Church and my advocacy of the Gospel- because there are liars, fools, and frauds who come here to sow doubt and to lead astray those who are unsure.

Chris, don't make me reconsider whether to classify you as a thoughtful, contributing member.

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

Try posting something more substantive than "how much you don't like Juliann". We've heard that song before.

Wow, so you think some of us have been extra naughty? Holding a differing opinion or feeling the need for a candid answer rather than continually toeing the party line is not really being a spoiler is it? I suspect newcomers may seek these candid answers rather than being subjected to an environment of judging and being judged.

You are right in I do imagine that we all have the capacity to influence things for the better. Through adding all our thoughts and voices together, we can move onward and upward and achieve a better understanding.

Selek, as for liking you when you are angry, we all have our moments. Acting out can sometimes be cathartic, however, it is more pleasant for everyone when we are able to be loving.

[selek]

Wow, so you think some of us have been extra naughty? Holding a differing opinion or feeling the need for a candid answer rather than continually toeing the party line is not really being a spoiler is it? I suspect newcomers may seek these candid answers rather than being subjected to an environment of judging and being judged.

First and foremost, you are neither candid nor a newcomer. Second, no- it is not necessary to continuously toe the party line and we have room for a variety of opinions, as I stated above.

On the other hand, we have little room and far less need for your habit of being relentlessly negative, snide, condescending, sneering, arrogant, dismissive, irrelevant, snarky, and utterly devoid of any capacity to make a meaningful contribution to a rational conversation.

Your entire presence on this board has been a sanctimonious sneer and criticism. You've contributed nothing to further the conversation, merely snarked at the faithful and patted yourself on the back for your wit. Your potshots and arrogance are counter-productive- whether the goal is strengthening the faithful, comforting the afflicted, or merely intelligent conversation.

You are right in I do imagine that we all have the capacity to influence things for the better. Through adding all our thoughts and voices together, we can move onward and upward and achieve a better understanding.

When you start contributing, let me know. So far I am astoundingly underwhelmed.

Acting out can sometimes be cathartic, however, it is more pleasant for everyone when we are able to be loving.

I think you just revealed (how ever unintentionally) the true rationale for your presence here- and for the existence of Shade's board, and RFM, and the Ex-Mo Whining Chorus, and the tin-foil hat brigades.

It's about you feeling better- not about anything meaningful to anyone beyond your own skin.

Thank you for the revelation- it is quite enlightening.

Oh....one more thing. Your histrionics can't disguise the fact that you still haven't answered multiple CFR's or retracted your earlier assertion.

Why not?

Let's keep the focus on the topic, not the posters. =Mods.

[Chris Smith]

Try posting something more substantive than how much you don't like Juliann. We've heard that song before.

First and foremost, you are neither candid nor a newcomer. Second, no- it is not necessary to continuously toe the party line and we have room for a variety of opinions, as I stated above.

On the other hand, we have little room and far less need for your habit of being relentlessly negative, snide, condescending, sneering, arrogant, dismissive, irrelevant, snarky, and utterly devoid of any capacity to make a meaningful contribution to a rational conversation.

Your entire presence on this board has been a sanctimonious sneer and criticism. You've contributed nothing to further the conversation, merely snarked at the faithful and patted yourself on the back for your wit. Your potshots and arrogance are counter-productive- whether the goal is strengthening the faithful, comforting the afflicted, or merely intelligent conversation.

When you start contributing, let me know. So far I am astoundingly underwhelmed.

I think you just revealed (how ever unintentionally) the true rationale for your presence here- and for the existence of Shade's board, and RFM, and the Ex-Mo Whining Chorus, and the tin-foil hat brigades.

It's about you feeling better- not about anything meaningful to anyone beyond your own skin.

Thank you for the revelation- it is quite enlightening.

Oh....one more thing. Your histrionics can't disguise the fact that you still haven't answered multiple CFR's or retracted your earlier assertion.

Why not?

Oh, the hypocrisy!

[juliann]

Indeed. The original poster in this thread has turned sneering at kettles into an art form. Never mind that she's treading on other people's religious experiences, which is utterly opposed to the alleged ideological basis of this forum.

This is priceless. I am on a message board I originated, I don't go to other people's message boards...let alone the exmos boards. Haven't even looked at one since August and probably won't again after seeing how more pleasant life is when you don't surround yourself with obscenity and hatred. But they come here to snarl at my beliefs...and me, of course.

Gee, what is missing in the thought processes here?

1. Does anyone but countermos have any difficulty whatsoever in discriminating a huge difference in attacking and defending?

2. Why won't the angry exmos and countermos stay on their own boards if they are so bothered by responses to their continual bashing?

[John Williams]

This is priceless. I am on a message board I originated, I don't go to other people's message boards...let alone the exmos boards. Haven't even looked at one since August and probably won't again after seeing how more pleasant life is when you don't surround yourself with obscenity and hatred. But they come here to snarl at my beliefs...and me, of course.

The OP mentioned this phenomenon wherein exmos say that MADB was instrumental in their leaving. If you're not on their boards, where are you getting this?

Gee, what is missing in the thought processes here?

1. Does anyone but countermos have any difficulty whatsoever in discriminating a huge difference in attacking and defending?

I can think of a few apologists who can't tell the difference.

2. Why won't the angry exmos and countermos stay on their own boards if they are so bothered by responses to their continual bashing?

Who's angry?

[juliann]

Wow, so you think some of us have been extra naughty? Holding a differing opinion or feeling the need for a candid answer rather than continually toeing the party line is not really being a spoiler is it? I suspect newcomers may seek these candid answers rather than being subjected to an environment of judging and being judged.

You are right in I do imagine that we all have the capacity to influence things for the better. Through adding all our thoughts and voices together, we can move onward and upward and achieve a better understanding.

Selek, as for liking you when you are angry, we all have our moments. Acting out can sometimes be cathartic, however, it is more pleasant for everyone when we are able to be loving.

Oh give us a break. Who in the world do you think doesn't see through your sneering, condescending sarcasm? This board has ample people who don't toe the party line and yet they can have an intelligent discussion instead of doing a bad imitation of Bill Maher. Has there been a positive comment about Mormons today that you have not zoomed in to sprinkle your juvenile smirking?

[Chris Smith]

This is priceless. I am on a message board I originated, I don't go to other people's message boards...let alone the exmos boards. Haven't even looked at one since August and probably won't again after seeing how more pleasant life is when you don't surround yourself with obscenity and hatred. But they come here to snarl at my beliefs...and me, of course.

Gee, what is missing in the thought processes here?

1. Does anyone but countermos have any difficulty whatsoever in discriminating a huge difference in attacking and defending?

2. Why won't the angry exmos and countermos stay on their own boards if they are so bothered by responses to their continual bashing?

I hardly come here to snarl. I come here to have respectful, two-way discussions. Your sneeringly condescending "this is my board and I can hate whoever I want to" attitude makes that awfully difficult, especially when it's backed by moderator enforcement. If this board is your personal ex-mo-hater playground, you can have it. I'll be on MDB if anyone wants to have a real discussion.

[juliann]

As a fairly new member of the church that was doubting for awhile after my first 6 months or so of membership and I can say that MADB, FAIR, and FARMS played a substantial role in me staying in the church and this is, I think, my third year now in the church. While the bishop met with me about my doubts and the SLC HQ let me talk to the public outreach department I think it was ultimately MADB, FAIR, and FARMS that pointed me in the right direction. I am now discovering Hugh Nibley videos and many apologetics sources that are strengthening my faith on an almost weekly basis. While I think doubting is normal for everyone I think it is important to know where to turn. So, I guess you could call me a sucess story.

Thank you for this, BTW...don't want it to get lost in the usual derailments.

Dr. Steuss: All-in-all though, Iâ??d imagine that at least a simple majority that happen upon this message board (or any other for that matter) have at least chosen which side of the fence they will ultimately land on and are ultimately looking for additional support to help justify that side (whether pro or con).

Few would dispute that...unless they are in a thread started by me regarding countermos. You are the posterboy for doubting without offense. You add to discussions not take away from them.

I hardly come here to snarl. I come here to have respectful, two-way discussions. Your sneeringly condescending "this is my board and I can hate whoever I want to" attitude makes that awfully difficult, especially when it's backed by moderator enforcement.

CFR

So why do you come here if it is so painful and you can have real discussions elsewhere? And no one said anything about you at all as far as I have seen. Isn't it interesting how we are not supposed to discuss countermos on our own board when countermo boards talk about us all day long without a second thought?

[juliann]

1. Does anyone but countermos have any difficulty whatsoever in discriminating a huge difference in attacking and defending?

2. Why won't the angry exmos and countermos stay on their own boards if they are so bothered by responses to their continual bashing?

[selek]

I hardly come here to snarl. I come here to have respectful, two-way discussions. Your sneeringly condescending "this is my board and I can hate whoever I want to" attitude makes that awfully difficult, especially when it's backed by moderator enforcement. If this board is your personal ex-mo-hater playground, you can have it. I'll be on MDB if anyone wants to have a real discussion.

Aside from your anti-Juliann rhetoric (hey, we all have our windmills), you have indeed been one of the brighter lights on this board, even if you are so frequently and consistently wrong (sorry, couldn't resist).

Rationale discussion is indeed the point, and thus you're entirely welcome here.

My posts above (and most of Juliann's, I'm sure) are not directed towards you personally or precisely- simply for the fact that you are able to discuss principles, able to reason coherently, and are neither limited to posts damning Mormons to Hell or pathologically incapable of presenting Mormon thought and scripture fairly.

We may not agree- but I can respect you and your opinion. And that's saying something.

[John Williams]

1. Does anyone but countermos have any difficulty whatsoever in discriminating a huge difference in attacking and defending?

Hate is hate, and attacks are attacks, no matter which side they come from.

2. Why won't the angry exmos and countermos stay on their own boards if they are so bothered by responses to their continual bashing?

You have a serious problem here if you consider Chris Smith a bashing, angry countermo.

[juliann]

Aside from your anti-Juliann rhetoric (hey, we all have our windmills),

My name is their blankie, my name is their pacifier. The invocation of the right names has become an ritual in the exmo narrative. It is thus hard to resist which shows the power of the exmo narrative and the conformity that is required to be part of the group.

My posts above (and most of Juliann's, I'm sure) are not directed towards you personally or precisely-

He wasn't even a twinkle in my eye before he came zooming in to protect the territory by invoking the most frightening presence on the net...Juliann! The name itself has power.

[John Williams]

My name is their blankie, my name is their pacifier.

Nah, I just bought a new electric blanket. I think my bed's too big for three of us.

The invocation of the right names has become an [sic] ritual in the exmo narrative. It is thus hard to resist which shows the power of the exmo narrative and the conformity that is required to be part of the group.

Yep, it's not a matter of pointing out hate and anger; it's a rite of passage. You aren't truly an exmormon until you've uttered the sacred word "Juliann."

[phaedrus ut]

My name is their blankie, my name is their pacifier. The invocation of the right names has become an ritual in the exmo narrative. It is thus hard to resist which shows the power of the exmo narrative and the conformity that is required to be part of the group.

He wasn't even a twinkle in my eye before he came zooming in to protect the territory by invoking the most frightening presence on the net...Juliann! The name itself has power.

I wouldn't say this is the case at all. Except for a few very personal battles that I've observed I wouldn't say you personally are as relevant to the discussion as you seem to believe. Whether your name "is their pacifier" or the name Juliann "itself has power" I can't really say. I do however suspect you may have a bit of a myopic distortion of perspective and importance.

I see the topics as most important in the eyes of those having the discussions. The players in the game, whether they be apologetic or critical, change and ultimately fade into the background.

Phaedrus

[alter idem]

After our latest "I just learned all this stuff/I have doubts/questions what do I do" poster who stomped off mad, I began to do a little board research on the phenomena of the doubting poster who not just thinks MADB is a rescue operation but demands it.

I think I've figured out part of the problem. This board used to be FAIR--which was a place that people could come to find apologetic defense against attacks on LDS beliefs, right? Therefore, it makes sense that people who were having doubts or struggles with their faith would come here looking for answers and support. So, in a way, it was a rescue operation. However, FAIR has changed--it now MADB and many active participants are not interested in rescuing--in fact, now, some on this thread have suggested that those who are struggling have no business being here.

If the purpose of the board has changed along with the new management, then maybe they shouldn't be here, however, I think we can be honest, that at one time, a part of the board's value was in helping some who needed answers.

This is what I found once these people (assuming they are not trolls) come to the board. They claim to be members who want help or answers but they only respond to the most negative posts. They will ignore two pages of supportive posts to hone in on someone they can battle.

Part of this is a person's mindset. If one is constantly on the look-out for trolls, they'll see them around every corner. I'm afraid we've shot more than a few innocent bystanders is our zeal to defend against trolls.

These posters then declare that they were treated rudely, attacked, yada yada by MADB not an individual or two but MADB, which they turned to as a last resort only to be rejected. Thus, the church is not what it says it is. This then becomes part of their story when they tell it. It is usually accompanied by statements about MADB (or FAIR/FARMS, fill in the blank) hurting the church despite the fact that what was formerly known as FARM is actually run by BYU.

Can we deny that they aren't treated rudely? Let's face reality here. We are rude to posters we think are trolls. Let's also admit that a few sincere ones who were labeled trolls and treated as such, have a valid complaint about their reception here. They didn't know they hit a hot button issue, or they shouldn't respond to the negative posters, or they shouldn't use certain phrases. They are ignorant of the dynamics of the board and so they're bound to step on a few toes when new.

Then they generalize their treatment here and blame the church which is hardly fair, but not surprising.

Is anyone else seeing this as a trend?

Maybe it's happening more often because of the change in the purpose of the board and we're all a little less patient. I don't know--I've only been here about 2 years so I don't know what it was like before, but I do think we are more trigger happy these days with newcomers than when I first arrived.

The collective mood on the board these days seems to be "shoot first and ask questions later"

[juliann]

I wouldn't say this is the case at all. Except for a few very personal battles that I've observed I wouldn't say you personally are as relevant to the discussion as you seem to believe. Whether your name "is their pacifier" or the name Juliann "itself has power" I can't really say. I do however suspect you may have a bit of a myopic distortion of perspective and importance.

How many times has my name been mentioned on MDB where you can go to have the really good discussions according to the above poster? Just in the last ten days. I'm going out on a limb here so disabuse me. Tell me if my name has not come up at all. If it has, that is importance and power under anyone's definition. If it hasn't I'm an egomaniac. But there has not been any period of time when I am not invoked so I'm sure I'm safe here. They should be going absolutely wild with the ritual invocations since I started posting again.

Anybody who goes there...have I lost my importance?

[John Williams]

How many times has my name been mentioned on MDB where you can go to have the really good discussions according to the above poster? Just in the last ten days. I'm going out on a limb here so disabuse me. Tell me if my name has not come up at all. If it has, that is importance and power under anyone's definition. If it hasn't I'm an egomaniac. But there has not been any period of time when I am not invoked so I'm sure I'm safe here. They should be going absolutely wild with the ritual invocations since I started posting again.

You seem to have a personal and acrimonious history with almost every poster on MDB, so it shouldn't surprise you that your name comes up frequently. What is interesting is the idea that the issue rests with everyone else, not you.

Anybody who goes there...have I lost my importance?

Starting now, you have for me.

[juliann]

I think I've figured out part of the problem. This board used to be FAIR--which was a place that people could come to find apologetic defense against attacks on LDS beliefs, right? Therefore, it makes sense that people who were having doubts or struggles with their faith would come here looking for answers and support. So, in a way, it was a rescue operation. However, FAIR has changed--it now MADB and many active participants are not interested in rescuing--in fact, now, some on this thread have suggested that those who are struggling have no business being here.

The FAIR message board started as a debate board and ended as one. It was meant to give apologists a place to hone their skills. It died for quite awhile and then came back to life. It has never been a rescue operation. That was for the website not the message board. The inability of so many to discriminate the difference between a website and a message board is the reason FAIR turned over the board to our current guru. And it is current management now saying anyone "struggling" is going to go to LDS Forums not a debate board. That is a ridiculously obvious move. I can understand why the countermos are having fits and trying to demand we keep them here, however.

If the purpose of the board has changed along with the new management, then maybe they shouldn't be here, however, I think we can be honest, that at one time, a part of the board's value was in helping some who needed answers.

I like you Alter, but outsiders really need to stop announcing what someone else's message board is or is not. I know it infuriates some people but you are really going to have to listen to the people who started and managed the original board. I'm not being dishonest. I'm sure there are many here who will confirm that my statements about the original FAIR board have remained the same throughout the years. It was never intended to "help" anyone. It was a place to have scholarly debates. It was contentious from the beginning. And it began with scholars like Carl Mosser. It was more scholarly and harder to keep up with than anything is now which is part of the reason why ZLMB took over.

edited to correct name

[juliann]

Can we deny that they aren't treated rudely? Let's face reality here. We are rude to posters we think are trolls. Let's also admit that a few sincere ones who were labeled trolls and treated as such, have a valid complaint about their reception here.

Why? Why in the world should this message board be any different than what it claims to be? Why do countermos get so furious when we won't wear their double standards? Why is anyone on this board expected to behave in any one way? And why should we continually have to listen to the whining when we won't comply to someone else's rules?

The trolls or whatever they are are going to be sent to LDS Forums. So what is the excuse for making up posting standards for this particular board now ?

All you rude Mormons, line up and admit it! I'm rude!

Now what.

[asbestosman]

Anybody who goes there...have I lost my importance?

Can't say I keep stats, but Juliann and Dr. Peterson come up frequently as does Alan Wyatt. You may have to fight those two for spot of most significance. There's also mention of Hammer and Charity from time to time, but you're still above them.

The only person that might be mentioned more than Juliann, Dr. Peterson, or Alan Wyatt would be any of the moderators, but since the mods are also known as "the Julianns", there is no cause for concern.

One last contender would be rcrocket, but since he posts there too, I don't suppose he's really much of a contender.

[gmormon]

Why? Why in the world should this message board be any different than what it claims to be? Why do countermos get so furious when we won't wear their double standards? Why is anyone on this board expected to behave in any one way? And why should we continually have to listen to the whining when we won't comply to someone else's rules?

The trolls or whatever they are are going to be sent to LDS Forums. So what is the excuse for making up posting standards for this particular board now ?

All you rude Mormons, line up and admit it! I'm rude!

Now what.

Okay!

Your rude ! Feel better now ?

[juliann]

Can't say I keep stats, but Juliann and Dr. Peterson come up frequently as does Alan Wyatt. You may have to fight those two for spot of most significance. There's also mention of Hammer and Charity from time to time, but you're still above them.

The only person that might be mentioned more than Juliann, Dr. Peterson, or Alan Wyatt would be any of the moderators, but since the mods are also known as "the Julianns", there is no cause for concern.

Oh, right...I control the universe! I get to count every mention of a mod. Now that puts me ahead. I am the most powerful and important in the naming ritual. Although actually...if Allan is still being invoked that gives him an omnipresent kind of power. He doesn't interact with them in any way at all yet still comes up as a VIP? Hmmm...I may have competition.

Okay!

Your rude ! Feel better now ?

See how easy that was? Did you break out in a rash? I didn't feel a thing when you typed it and my computer didn't explode.

[Dale]

After our latest "I just learned all this stuff/I have doubts/questions what do I do" poster who stomped off mad, I began to do a little board research on the phenomena of the doubting poster who not just thinks MADB is a rescue operation but demands it.

This is what I found once these people (assuming they are not trolls) come to the board. They claim to be members who want help or answers but they only respond to the most negative posts. They will ignore two pages of supportive posts to hone in on someone they can battle.

These posters then declare that they were treated rudely, attacked, yada yada by MADB not an individual or two but MADB, which they turned to as a last resort only to be rejected. Thus, the church is not what it says it is. This then becomes part of their story when they tell it. It is usually accompanied by statements about MADB (or FAIR/FARMS, fill in the blank) hurting the church despite the fact that what was formerly known as FARM is actually run by BYU.

Is anyone else seeing this as a trend?

I don't see these type of struggler's to be worth trying to help. Some of these person's do look for someone to battle. I don't see such a person is not putting any energy into resolving issues. That suggests they don't really want help, or answers. I have been concerned some of these people might be a part of a conspiracy. I was thinking of the possibility some of these people might be plant's. That they were bashing Mormonism on a message board where ex- MADB board participants were hanging out. That they come over here as plant's with a contrived story about needing help, but are hiding other motives secretly.

I do suggest caution though. It's important to read a few posts by the person before judging them. The facts I have seen this story told similarly several time's on another message board look's suspicious. I think FAIR became concerned this was going and it was one of several other reason's they got out of the message board business. I heard some Ex-Mormon's were using FAIR and the board as part of their leaving the faith testimony.

[phaedrus ut]

How many times has my name been mentioned on MDB where you can go to have the really good discussions according to the above poster? Just in the last ten days. I'm going out on a limb here so disabuse me. Tell me if my name has not come up at all. If it has, that is importance and power under anyone's definition. If it hasn't I'm an egomaniac. But there has not been any period of time when I am not invoked so I'm sure I'm safe here. They should be going absolutely wild with the ritual invocations since I started posting again.

Anybody who goes there...have I lost my importance?

I'm an occasional poster there so I can't quite tell you specifics. Excluding beastie I wouldn't say that I notice you coming up that often. I did notice this thread being mentioned. This board, and the moderators do come up quite often so I suppose that would count. The MDB board however is unique because it's population is made up of cast offs from MAD so there is a disproportionate amount of attention given to the goings on here.

I'm sure the thoughts of exmos going "absolutely wild" by invoking your name might sound exciting but it's not what I've seen. I did do a search on the exmo board and found a thread from the past 90 days that mentioned you. It was regarding how they were trying to use the "Fair" board to research both sides of an issue and apparently had a negative reaction mentioning your name.

Phaedrus

// Obviously I can only state my perception of the situation and my point of view may be equally as biased and distorted.