Myth Or Fact

[why me]

The flip side to the story is of course, Emma still supporting her husband even after his death. According to her second husband Bidemon, she never denied the book of mormon or Joseph's prophethood.

I do believe however that she loved the Kirkland Joseph more than she loved the Nauvoo Joseph. Emma had ample opportunity to distance herself from mormonism and expose the 'fraud'. She would have made a small fortune by doing so. She didn't. The ill feelings that she had for Brigham and the testimony that she had for her husband Joseph go in hand in hand when it comes to her never deny the book of mormon.

Also, I didn't get the impression that she was excited about creating the Reorganized church. Perhaps she did it for her son but I don't believe that her own heart was in it. And we still need to remember that she denied the polygamy angle to her children. Joseph the third needed a Utah trip to get it confirmed, I believe.

[grego]

I suppose, in a bearing false witness kind of way.

Or a telling of the truth sort of thing, eh?

[katherine the great]

You know, when I went home tonight I wondered why my response was to blame Brigham and not Emma. And after four hours of pondering, I think the honest answer is that I'm still a Tongan raised with cultural biases about women; and although I view some of them as chivalrous (sp?), they still remain sexist. That was a tough pill to swallow. Dang introspection...

Yeah, well..you're still the man. (or the woman--can't tell from your avatar.) I'm not a Tongan, but from the Polynesians I know, those cultures seem to produce exceptionally strong women. Are they really sexist?

[katherine the great]

Back to the poisoning thing... I've been reading the Journal of Joseph Smith. I read a couple of entries that indicated that he had a couple of bouts of sudden, violent nausea and vomiting. I think these are probably the incidents to which Brigham Young refers. Frankly though, his description of them really sounds very much like a food poisoning incident I had once. It came on very suddenly, I felt like I was going to die for about five hours, and then I felt much better (although extremely weak.) In Joseph Smith's first incident, he was violently ill for a couple of hours and then felt well enough to attend a meeting that evening. His next incident (which was not too long afterward) made him sick for a couple of days, and then he was fine. If Emma poisoned Joseph with an eye to kill him (like with arsenic), he would have been sicker for much longer. At worst, it sounds like she may have poured some Ipecac syrup in his Postum. Maybe she hoped it would keep him home more. I can't argue that Emma did lie to her children about the plural marriage thing. I think that was wrong, but I also understand that it was an extremely painful experience for her, and if she said Joseph only had one wife--legally she was right.

[aspire]

I know it doesn't justify Emma lying to her children about truth of plural marriage. But for how many years were Emma and others lied to about plural marriage? I could see her point, polygamy had caused her nothing but pain. It took Joseph away for her in many ways, first by denying there was anything of that sort going on, second bring other women into their lives (I don't know any woman who in their heart of hearts would want to share their husband with another) and than polygamy was part of the reason for Joseph's death.

[katherine the great]

I know it doesn't justify Emma lying to her children about truth of plural marriage. But for how many years were Emma and others lied to about plural marriage?

That is a very good point. Emma was lied to about plural marriage, (of course because she wouldn't accept it.) But, this is a very good example of how one lie begets another. Joseph lied to Emma. Emma lied to her children. Emma gets branded a damnable liar. It's easy to understand the motivation of all the lies involved, but it does make a bigger mess than if Joseph would have been forthcoming in the first place. The worst case scenario: He would have lost Emma.

[aspire]

Sorry about the quote cut and paste. I haven't figured out the quote thing yet.

"The worst case scenario: He would have lost Emma." ktg

From what I have read on the two (Joseph and Emma) if he would have lost her early on he wouldn't have been able to eatablish the Church. She was a very strong woman and at times I think she was his only strength.

[Lamanite]

Yeah, well..you're still the man. (or the woman--can't tell from your avatar.) I'm not a Tongan, but from the Polynesians I know, those cultures seem to produce exceptionally strong women. Are they really sexist?

I'm a man (remember the bikini thread ). And yes, by todays standards-and especially if measured by todays femenist standards, Tongan culture would be considered extremely sexist. It is still a Patriarchical society where power, land, title, and authority is still passed down through first born male birthright. However, some of our customs are wonderfully chivalrous and caring, and could be construed as condescending and sexist. It is some of the latter that make me come down hard on Brigham.

And yes, I feel because of our culture, and the addition of the American culture has produced some of the greatest women I know. One could also make the argument that American culture is destroying us and our children. I tend to disagree, but that is another discussion.

[selek]

Sorry about the quote cut and paste. I haven't figured out the quote thing yet.

"The worst case scenario: He would have lost Emma." ktg

From what I have read on the two (Joseph and Emma) if he would have lost her early on he wouldn't have been able to eatablish the Church. She was a very strong woman and at times I think she was his only strength.

While I generally agree that Emma was in many respects his strength and his refuge, I wonder if you aren't discounting the influence, witness, and comfort of the Spirit.

No one person (save Christ only) is essential to the Gospel. Had Joseph fallen- or never been born- the Lord would simply have tasked with another with the Restoration. Had Joseph lost - or never had- Emma at his side, another would have been appointed to fill her place.

I also begin to wonder if this thread isn't in danger of becoming a bit unseemly. Whatever her faults- and whatever rumors circulated about Emma, Joseph did not condemn her. We, therefore, have no reason to do so, either.

No one really knows what goes on between two people in a marriage save the particpants themselves (and the Lord). Joseph loved Emma and she loved him. Let it rest there. It is not our place to speculate on what went on between them unless there is evidence to support it.

And third hand rumors repeated fifty years after the fact (even by a Prophet of God) don't count.

Yes, there was bad-blood between Brigham and Emma following the Prophet's murder- but we need not speculate on what went on between Emma and her husband.

[why me]

That is a very good point. Emma was lied to about plural marriage, (of course because she wouldn't accept it.) But, this is a very good example of how one lie begets another. Joseph lied to Emma. Emma lied to her children. Emma gets branded a damnable liar. It's easy to understand the motivation of all the lies involved, but it does make a bigger mess than if Joseph would have been forthcoming in the first place. The worst case scenario: He would have lost Emma.

I don't think that he would have lost emma. I think that JS was just a little 'yellow' to tell emma the truth at first. I can see him between a rock and a hard place on this one. Many people have been in similiar circumstances of darned if I do, and darned if I don't. It was a no win for JS. And this is what makes JS and the revelation that he received so understandable. He would never have placed himself in such a position unless he believed that god commanded it.

He even attempted to justify plural marriage to Nancy Ridgon. Accordingly he said: "God said thou shall not kill,----at another time he said thou shall utterly destroy...that which is wrong under one circumstance, may be and often is, right under another". I seem to think that this shows a little confusion about the whole issue and an attempt to come to an understanding.

His lying was commited in confusion on what was right and what was wrong as he attempted to grasp the issue of plural wives.

[aspire]

selek, I agree with you if it hadn't been Joseph to restore the Gosple the Lord would have had someone else in his sted do it. And if it hadn't been Emma at Joseph's side there most likely would have been someone else. But they were the ones that were involvened in the restroation. I truly believe they loved each other very much.

"And third hand rumors repeated fifty years after the fact (even by a Prophet of God) don't count.

Yes, there was bad-blood between Brigham and Emma following the Prophet's murder- but we need not speculate on what went on between Emma and her husband." selek

Again I agree.

[katherine the great]

His lying was commited in confusion on what was right and what was wrong as he attempted to grasp the issue of plural wives.

I agree, and her "lying" was done out of motherly concern for her children. Sometimes good people find themselves resorting to lies to protect others. I agree with you though, that we should get this thread back on the topic of Brigham Young and Emma Smith. It is kind of hard to do though when the problems between the two were directly related to Joseph Smith.

[why me]

I agree, and her "lying" was done out of motherly concern for her children. Sometimes good people find themselves resorting to lies to protect others. I agree with you though, that we should get this thread back on the topic of Brigham Young and Emma Smith. It is kind of hard to do though when the problems between the two were directly related to Joseph Smith.

I think that it is impossible to separate polygamy, JS and Emma and the problem of succession and BY. Emma after losing her husband and Hyrum was devastated and sick of the entire mormon thing. It caused her too much pain and anguish. And we need to remember the loss of her children indirectly to mob violence earlier. She was not in good shape at that time.

Her heart was in pain and her soul was probably a T.S. Elliot waste land. This needs to be taken into consideration when discussion Brigham and Emma. Property rights also came into the fore. I would not hold her responsible for anything that may have happened after JS's death. For after all she was a human being and a woman who lost much for a faith that she believed in. After awhile, she moved to Nauvoo and led a peaceful life with Bidamon. She died in dignity.

Too much pain in mormonism for dear Emma. Perhaps BY could have been more sympathic but then again maybe he was. I don't know.

Taken this all into account, if the JS was a fraud the pain would have been more severe and the feeling of waste more dramatic. The evidence points to belief and yet, resignation to what life brought her. And peace that she found with a man, a nonmember and yet, a defender of the faith, Bidamon.

[mocnarf]

Was Emma ever officially excommunicated?

[HiJolly]

Was Emma ever officially excommunicated?

Wow. I never thought of that. I await the answer with bated breath!!

HiJolly

[katherine the great]

Was Emma ever officially excommunicated?

I don't think so.

[AddamS]

Some of Joseph's childen had mental disorders. Could this have come from Emma's side? Could she have been bi-polar?

It doesn't look good for a man claiming to have visions of God to have so much mental disarray in his own family.

Emma: Rejcts the idea of plural marriage, will not abandon her family, fights to keep what belongs to her children, protects her children at all costs, etc...

Joseph: Sees angels, talks to Jesus of Nazareth (in person and in New York no less), rejects the oaths he took to be true to only his wife, Son of an alcoholic, etc...

And you think mental disorder comes from Emma's side of the family?

[USU78]

I do have to say that I think the whole Brigham/Emma thing would make a great Mormon movie. You have all the elements of good drama.

As for the horse story, I can only add this bit of perspective as a horse owner and father. When I ride a horse, I tend to ride it hard. Why? Because, frankly, they like it. At least some of them do. They love to go. And in the process, the outward appearance of the horse can suffer -- at least temporarily. I have brought home a horse who is absolutely a total sweaty, exhausted mess. And when it happened to be my daughter's favorite horse, she was aghast that I had done such a thing to her "pet." Of course, a 14-year-old girl has a different conception of a horse than does a 40-year-old man. The horse in question was perfectly fine the following day. In fact, the horse was even stronger, more toned, and ready to go hard again.

My point is that I've read the story to which you refer. Young Joseph III felt like Brigham Young had somehow mistreated his "pet" horse. But it all could have simply been a difference of perspective, and one not based in reality.

Did you really just call JSIII a 14-year-old girl?

[selek]

Did you really just call JSIII a 14-year-old girl?

No. He was referring to the fact that his own 14-year-old-daughter was upset with him for riding her horse too hard. It was a parallel to the JS situation, not a reference.

[mocnarf]

I don't think so.

Ok, were others (that stayed behind and form their own church based on JS BOM) ever excommunicated? Were Joseph's son's ever excommunicated? If not, then their claim to priesthood authority should be just as valid as BY's claim.

Since Emma and Joseph had recieved the "Second Annointing" and their "election made sure" maybe BY was powerless to be able to excommunicate someone who has already been declared a God (rather Goddess) in the Celestial Kingdom? ????

[grego]

Too much pain in mormonism for dear Emma. Perhaps BY could have been more sympathic but then again maybe he was. I don't know.

Also. We don't know what they might have talked about, what privated discussions they might have had, what BY had tried (or not) to do, etc.