Elder Holland On Trinitarianism

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks, Scott. I'm really going to have to get that sarcasm checker fixed. It seems to be functioning at less than peak.

CKS

Oh, I caught the sarcasm. I took it to mean that Church leaders are behind the curve on discussion of doctrinal issues, a notion that is, frankly, ridiculous.

[Deborah]

Great talk and Elder Nelson's talk that followed on the scriptures of the restoration was just as powerful and unequivocal.

I think the theme of the this conference was "we are not going to let others tell the world what we believe." I think that is one of the reasons they are doing these press conferences now with Mormonism more in the limelight and some others who profess Christianity telling their version of Mormonism.

[flameburns623]

So much for the critics' claim that the Mormons are trying to remake themselves

in the image of "traditional" Christianity.

Bernard

I think that is still true. LDS leadership seems to want it both ways: they want to preserve some doctrinal and organizational distinctives, so that outsiders don't just shrug off Mormons as 'just like all the other churches'. On the other hand, they want some measure of acceptance and respect especially from the conservative Catholics and Evangelicals with whom they share so much else in common. I also think that there is some hope this sort of talk will help mute critics who declaim that the LDS are not Christians. We will see about that. I personally think that while one CAN say that in a strict theological definition of the term Christian, a lot of populist anti-LDS criticism carries the case way too far. I mean--certainly the LDS are 'Christian' as opposed to Buddhist, Hindu, or Jewish, even if they are not Trinitarians. So the criticism has merit in a limited way but gets misused too often simply because it has shock value and inspires bigotry.

You are one of at least three of us. Alter idem has suggested we use this one.

I concur.

[charity's child]

Now if only he'd said we don't worship Joseph Smith I think that'd take care of most of the recent controversy here.

[Scott Lloyd]

Now if only he'd said we don't worship Joseph Smith I think that'd take care of most of the recent controversy here.

Maybe we can send in suggestions for his address next April.

[simply_disappear]

Thanks be to God.

[Deborah]

Now if only he'd said we don't worship Joseph Smith I think that'd take care of most of the recent controversy here.

Given that the last Conference addressed several issues being discussed on the forum, and now this one is doing the same, I still wonder if the GA's have a spy amongst us!!!

[jwhitlock]

Great talk and Elder Nelson's talk that followed on the scriptures of the restoration was just as powerful and unequivocal.

I think the theme of the this conference was "we are not going to let others tell the world what we believe." I think that is one of the reasons they are doing these press conferences now with Mormonism more in the limelight and some others who profess Christianity telling their version of Mormonism.

I agree; I get this sense of the conference also, so far.

Elder Holland was quite restrained in his remarks - which was appropriate for conference. Those of us who understand the personal effects of literal hate speech at times in labeling us non-Christians know that there is a very dark side to this "Mormons aren't Christian" falsehood.

[rameumptom]

Discussions do go both ways, where there is opportunity to share ideas, such as in this forum. However, there are many on both sides that are not willing to listen, but only condemn. There is no discussion, for example, when one side starts by saying the other is not Christian and/or is going to hell.

I think the talk would not have occurred, had there not been such an attitude that Mormons are not Christian and will not be saved. Interestingly, Elder Holland also stated that there is no reason for us to be apologists. ;-)

I'm sure there is room for a few of us, just not all the members. However, It is better as a Church for us to focus on sharing our own doctrines and testimonies, than to spend time defending the gospel.

There is an argument, I believe, for both Trinity and Godhead beliefs in the New Testament. Arguing that one cannot find "God is a Spirit" or examples of all three beings being separate in the scripture is unfounded on either side. Now the interpretation of those ideas is another thing.

The Trinity was primarily developed in the 3d through 5th centuries. Origen was speaking of separate members of the Godhead at that time, telling that Jesus was subordinate to the Father.

[simply_disappear]

Great talk and Elder Nelson's talk that followed on the scriptures of the restoration was just as powerful and unequivocal.

I think the theme of the this conference was "we are not going to let others tell the world what we believe." I think that is one of the reasons they are doing these press conferences now with Mormonism more in the limelight and some others who profess Christianity telling their version of Mormonism.

Elder Nelson's talk was equally breathtaking to me as well.

Today was just plain awesome with Elder Eyring being sustained as 2nd counselor, the press conference and all the wonderful talks with the last two being the highlight of my day, to be sure!

The last two talks brought me to get my laptop out before conference was over.....to which my son objected and wanted to know if he could have his cell phone....lol....not. i just logged on so i could be ready for prayer to be over.......then i saw there were a few who had itchy fingers! lol.....made me giggle.

[Zakuska]

I liked his use of the quote I heard on ZLMB a few years ago... Re the Corporality of God.

"They have taken away my God, and I know not what to worship now" (Rough Paraphrase)

[Scott Lloyd]

Given that the last Conference addressed several issues being discussed on the forum, and now this one is doing the same, I still wonder if the GA's have a spy amongst us!!!

Or viewed another way, this forum could be a pretty good barometer of what the Church in general is up against.

I liked his use of the quote I heard on ZLMB a few years ago... Re the Corporality of God.

"They have taken away my God, and I know not what to worship now" (Rough Paraphrase)

Sad to say, some folks who profess Church membership are trying to do that to Mormonism.

[cksalmon]

I liked his use of the quote I heard on ZLMB a few years ago... Re the Corporality of God.

"They have taken away my God, and I know not what to worship now" (Rough Paraphrase)

Hi Zak--

If this is a paraphrase of John, then it is rough indeed. So rough that it completely fails to represent the intent of the passage, while eisegetically investing it with foreign propositional content.

John 20:13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.

Best.

CKS

[Lachoneus]

If this is a paraphrase of John, . . ..

It is not. It is a quote from a 4th Century monk - quoted by Elder Holland in his talk this afternoon.

[alter idem]

The last two talks brought me to get my laptop out before conference was over.....to which my son objected and wanted to know if he could have his cell phone....lol....not. i just logged on so i could be ready for prayer to be over.......then i saw there were a few who had itchy fingers! lol.....made me giggle.

Some of us don't have to get a laptop out. My computer is right next to the TV; ready and waiting for me so I can check the board and give my thougths during the singing.

[volvoman]

Elder Holland gave a wonderful talk. It may allay a few EVs questions but I doubt it. I am always amazed by their replies even after you tell them what we believe. Their reply essentially says, "Oh no, that's not what you really believe !"

Volvoman

[katherine the great]

Or, to put it another way, we didn't start this fight.

I don't think he's quite that petty. It has been argued that Mormons don't believe that "others" are true Christians. Our leaders just haven't said that in a very long time. There is a very large misunderstanding and Elder Holland is attempting to address it.

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't think he's quite that petty. It has been argued that Mormons don't believe that "others" are true Christians. Our leaders just haven't said that in a very long time. There is a very large misunderstanding and Elder Holland is attempting to address it.

In over 45 years of Church membership, I've never heard it given as authoritative teaching in the Church that members of other denominations are not "true Christians."

[katherine the great]

In over 45 years of Church membership, I've never heard it given as authoritative teaching in the Church that members of other denominations are not "true Christians."

As I said, it hasn't been taught in a very long time. Maybe the day will come when leaders of other churches will not teach that we aren't Christian. I hope so, although I suppose it really doesn't matter.

[Scott Lloyd]

As I said, it hasn't been taught in a very long time. Maybe the day will come when leaders of other churches will not teach that we aren't Christian. I hope so, although I suppose it really doesn't matter.

My point is I don't think it was ever given as an authoritative position of the Church.

In the very early days of the Church, there may have been an isolated speech here and there with fiery rhetoric, but when you pin it down, you find that the subject generally is professed Christians who have persecuted Mormons and, thus, have not at all behaved like Christians.

Joseph Smith himself expressed tolerance for other religions and, to my knowledge, never denied the professed Christianity of others.

So I say again: We didn't start this fight.

[krose]

So much for the critics' claim that the Mormons are trying to remake themselves

in the image of "traditional" Christianity.

Are you equating "traditional" Christianity with trinitarian beliefs? I don't know a whole lot about Christian sects and their various doctrinal differences, but I thought there were plenty of Protestants who also consider Jesus and his father god to be separate entities. Am I wrong? Is the trinity a major part of what they claim keeps Mormons from being properly labeled as Christians?

[Scott Lloyd]

Are you equating "traditional" Christianity with trinitarian beliefs? I don't know a whole lot about Christian sects and their various doctrinal differences, but I thought there were plenty of Protestants who also consider Jesus and his father god to be separate entities. Am I wrong? Is the trinity a major part of what they claim keeps Mormons from being properly labeled as Christians?

That seemed to me, at least, to be the gist of Elder Holland's remarks. I doubt that Christians who regard Jesus and God the Father as separate entities are the ones who are trying to exclude Mormons from Christianity.

[Chris Smith]

When they are pagan beliefs that traditional Christianity aggressively tries to shove down my throat, yeah, it is awesome.

If I have to choose between Platonic paganism and Ugaritic paganism, I'll take Platonism for a thousand, Alex.

[alter idem]

Are you equating "traditional" Christianity with trinitarian beliefs? I don't know a whole lot about Christian sects and their various doctrinal differences, but I thought there were plenty of Protestants who also consider Jesus and his father god to be separate entities. Am I wrong? Is the trinity a major part of what they claim keeps Mormons from being properly labeled as Christians?

After being on this board for awhile I'd say that yes, the fact that we do not accept the trinity doctrine of three in one is a big reason we have been deemed not christian by some faiths.

Do you know of many other christian faiths who believe in three separate beings as we do?

[Drewm777]

All I can say is that the truth was clearly evident in what he said. Any person who is honest in heart and who really loves the Lord knows that what he taught was the truth of God.