Are Evangelicals Saved By Works?

[MorningStar]

Again, I'm curious. Why do Mormons always play this emotionally driven card where they say, "I don't like you, therefore, I don't like your Jesus either," when they've lost whatever argument it is that they've presented?

What the poopysticks are you talking about????

[MorningStar]

I'm curious too: Where is Mormonism found in the Bible? Jesus is Satan's brother? "True" salvation, as opposed to, untrue (?) salvation? How does the Holy Spirit indwell everyone, when the Holy Spirit can only be in one place at a time? Where is Kolob? Did God have any brothers or sisters, and just who helped him become a god? Who helped Heavenly Mother become a goddess? I'm sorry, I digress. Mormonism simply causes more questions to be asked than it gives answers, primarily because it espouses multiple doctrines and beliefs that either cannot be found in the Bible (or BoM for that matter), or they simply contradict what the Bible does say. Now, back to the topic.

I asked you first. So where's the definition of "works" in the Bible, Rusty?

Amen

Does anyone know how to file a complaint with the mods?

Click on "report" underneath the offending post.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Your absolutly right if it were possible to do it by works alone.Here is a thread just for you. http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...mp;p=1208265424

Rusty I still have a great thread dedicated just for you. Oh I see. you dont want to come play now that some one is actually going to address your issues.

[Drewm777]

Rusty was correct in raising the point that LDS have a different definition of works than "free-will evangelicals" do.

Once again, could you provide some specific examples instead of just making assertions? This is what bothers me about the issue. I don't understand what it is that you believe is different. I want to know.

Yes, they may emphasize a prayer or a decision,

Here's the issue. We're talking about what a person has to do to receive salvation, not continue in it. Persons who believe in free-will have to believe that it is a decision that is made to receive salvation. Is such a decision, therefore, a work? If so, are they saved by works? I say no, because the work doesn't save them it only makes the salvation already worked out by Christ available.

but they also emphasize that God's working in their lives is what produces good fruits,

Yes, AFTER salvation. Calvinists believe it's BEFORE salvation.

I think you would find disagreement from them with your assertation that these things are "works" in the same way that they think the LDS define works.

Maybe so, but I'd like clarification. Why? What exactly is different? How so? Etc. That's my question. I know there may be some discussion on whether we mean the same thing or not. I think we do. I want to know why some think we don't. That's all.

[paulhadik]

drewm

its that phrase "after all that we can do" which i ask 100 LDS and get 100 different answers, plus the idea that most LDS agree on that I can lose my salvation based on what I do. As LDS seem to argue that salvation is not something we get in this life, then my works do play a part.

These are things a free-willer would have a hard time agreeing with

[Drewm777]

Thanks.

So some of the problematic issues might be the LDS belief that salvation can be lost and that the completion of salvation after death might be determined by how we live after being saved in the first place?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

By the way, I believe being saved "after all we can do" should be interpreted the way the Book of Mormon interprets it. Hint: Where else does the phrase "all we can do" appear in the Book of Mormon?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

drewm

its that phrase "after all that we can do" which i ask 100 LDS and get 100 different answers, plus the idea that most LDS agree on that I can lose my salvation based on what I do. As LDS seem to argue that salvation is not something we get in this life, then my works do play a part.

These are things a free-willer would have a hard time agreeing with

Paul consider that we believe that salvation is a process not a one time deal. Ultimate salvation could not be obtained until death and a judgement. Since we both agree salvation can be lost. At least I think we both agree? We believe this life to be a test. Since one can fail the test at any point in life the test will be complete at death or I should say at the judgment and resurrection. I can erase any answer on my test and change it, but once I hand in the test its over.

[paulhadik]

Mola and Drewm

thank you for the replies. This, though is why in a conversation with a free-willer he would be very uncomfortable stating to a mormon that praying is a work much like LDS would define a work.

And no Mola, as a holder of reformed theology I don't believe one can lose their salvation but as that is kinda off topic I hadn't mentioned it earlier. Most free-willers disagree with losing salvation also, so if you were to use the test illustration with a free willer he would have problems with it.

If you want to use a test we would state that God demands a perfect score on the test and we are unable to meet it, therefore our "works" while not bad in themselves, can receive no merit from God.

So Drewm, I agree with the idea that prayer, coming forward down an aisle, etc, these are works that some shallow christians state must be done to "accept Jesus" and you are right, the emphasis on OUR letting Jesus in our hearts, hints strongly at pre-salvific works that are necessary.

Most free-willers though will take issue with my calvinistic leanings and issue with you two on man's role in the process

[Hoops22]

Thanks.

So some of the problematic issues might be the LDS belief that salvation can be lost and that the completion of salvation after death might be determined by how we live after being saved in the first place?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

By the way, I believe being saved "after all we can do" should be interpreted the way the Book of Mormon interprets it. Hint: Where else does the phrase "all we can do" appear in the Book of Mormon?

2 Nephi 1:23 I believe

followed by 2 Nephi 1:25

Seems clear to me. How does the context alter my reading of it?

[Drewm777]

And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do, (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain—

Alma 24:11.

Here the Book of Mormon defines the "all we can do" as repentance, getting God to take away our sin.

What it is not: It is not a statement that we have to live up to a certain level before grace works for us. It is a statement that we are saved by grace, after all we can do, namely, repent.

Of course, reformed theology would suggest that we can't even repent without God deciding so first. So, it doesn't match that concept at all.

[Tanyan]

Personally, I like what Romans 11:6 says: "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Rusty Springs, I also Love what Paul says in that scripture, what are the works Paul is referring to ?, Law of Moses perhaps ?, even i f it refers to man's work's you need "pistis" for your Discipleship and obedience with works born out of FAITH for your Master CHRIST JESUS. Thank you. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Bsix]

If you believe that salvation is a completely free gift based on grace and that salvation requires absolutely no works or actions on our part -- doesn't it then follow that everyone must be saved?

The closest theology that believes that salvation is a free gift is Mormonism.

In LDS theology, everyone who has ever lived is given the free gift of salvation. Everyone who has ever lived will be resurrected. Everyone is given a place in Heaven. You don't have to do anything...or accept anything...or have faith in anything...or confess Jesus in any way shape or form to go to heaven.

Of course there are details within LDS theology. For example: LDS theology holds that where you are in heaven depends on your works, that not being in the highest degree of heaven can be considered hell, and that a tiny, tiny few of the elite will actually choose outer darkness.

With that said, the LDS notion of salvation is much closer to the notion of no-works salvation.

Regards,

Six

[Drewm777]

If you believe that salvation is a completely free gift based on grace and that salvation requires absolutely no works or actions on our part -- doesn't it then follow that everyone must be saved?

The closest theology that believes that salvation is a free gift is Mormonism.

In LDS theology, everyone who has ever lived is given the free gift of salvation. Everyone who has ever lived will be resurrected. Everyone is given a place in Heaven. You don't have to do anything...or accept anything...or have faith in anything...or confess Jesus in any way shape or form to go to heaven.

Of course there are details within LDS theology. For example: LDS theology holds that where you are in heaven depends on your works, that not being in the highest degree of heaven can be considered hell, and that a tiny, tiny few of the elite will actually choose outer darkness.

With that said, the LDS notion of salvation is much closer to the notion of no-works salvation.

Regards,

Six

Interesting thought. However, I do no agree that all will be saved in heaven without confessing Jesus. I believe that all will confess Jesus sooner or later, at least all who go to any kingdom of glory. However, it is an interesting thought overall. Thanks

[Bsix]

Interesting thought. However, I do no agree that all will be saved in heaven without confessing Jesus. I believe that all will confess Jesus sooner or later, at least all who go to any kingdom of glory. However, it is an interesting thought overall. Thanks

Six: I do accept that at some point every knee shall bend and every tongue confess the glory and reality of Jesus Christ and his atonement.

However, that is going to be more of the act of accepting reality than a faithful act that is required for salvation. There is nothing required in LDS theology to inherit immortality and eternity in one of the kingdoms of heaven.

Regards,

Six

[Drewm777]

Well, my understanding is that salvation is possible only through Jesus Christ. So, if any salvation is attained, even in the telestial kingdom, it will be on the merits of Jesus Christ. I think, however, that means the person will have to accept those merits on their behalf and thereby accept Christ.

That's my view.

[Bsix]

Well, my understanding is that salvation is possible only through Jesus Christ. So, if any salvation is attained, even in the telestial kingdom, it will be on the merits of Jesus Christ. I think, however, that means the person will have to accept those merits on their behalf and thereby accept Christ.

That's my view.

Six: You are perfectly entitled to your view. I have no idea what theology you embrace (Mormon, traditional Christian, other).

The LDS view agrees that salvation is only possible through Jesus Christ. We happen to have a very expansive view of the universiality of the Savior's offering of salvation.

It is my opinion, however, that any view that places any type of work or requirement on a person to be saved is not "free" salvation. If you have to have faith, believe, or accept Jesus and his salvation as a requirement...that is not a free gift.

The LDS view of salvation in heaven is the closest to 'free' salvation of any theological system in the Christian realm.

Regards,

Six

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola and Drewm

thank you for the replies. This, though is why in a conversation with a free-willer he would be very uncomfortable stating to a mormon that praying is a work much like LDS would define a work.

And no Mola, as a holder of reformed theology I don't believe one can lose their salvation but as that is kinda off topic I hadn't mentioned it earlier. Most free-willers disagree with losing salvation also, so if you were to use the test illustration with a free willer he would have problems with it.

If you want to use a test we would state that God demands a perfect score on the test and we are unable to meet it, therefore our "works" while not bad in themselves, can receive no merit from God.

So Drewm, I agree with the idea that prayer, coming forward down an aisle, etc, these are works that some shallow christians state must be done to "accept Jesus" and you are right, the emphasis on OUR letting Jesus in our hearts, hints strongly at pre-salvific works that are necessary.

Most free-willers though will take issue with my calvinistic leanings and issue with you two on man's role in the process

Paul

You do bring up some thing very important that seems to get letf out in discussion. We too believe that "God demands a perfect score on the test and we are unable to meet it". Also the test analogy was just put for to better understand LDS theology. I think Drew has done a great job explaing that the gift is free we just need to do our part and unwrap it.

[paulhadik]

Hey mola:

in the end I think too the differing degrees of glory play a part. EV's don't really have a catch-all telestial type kingdom, its more an all or nothing thing.

For the LDS the works seem to play a heavy part in degree of glory and the EV really has no such distinction when discussing "Salvation".

[Drewm777]

I've heard it expressed by evangelicals of both kinds on more than one occasion that there are different rewards in Heaven. All the saved go to heaven, but some have greater rewards than others.

So, once again, what's the problem?

[paulhadik]

I am not sure I totally believe that idea but even so it would differ greatly from the LDS degrees of glory that (according to another thread) will involve 99.5% of humanity.

We reject the idea that just cause someone tries to live a good life and thinks Jesus taught some good things that this will earn him ANY level of heaven. See Matthew 7:22

[Drewm777]

I don't believe 99.5% will enter some degree of glory. It's not consistent with LDS scripture at all. I guess I'm a heretic.

Further, I don't believe those who are saved can be saved independently of Christ.