Are Evangelicals Saved By Works?

[urroner]

Where does it say in scripture that prayer is a work?

Where does it say in the scriptures that prayer isn't a work?

One no more asks for salvation, in and of himself, any more than a baby asks to be born of his parents.

Where in the scriptures does it say that?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Where does it say in scripture that prayer is a work?

Ok were in scriptures does it say saying a prayer is not a work? Can you help a brotha out.

Doing "something," and doing something that by biblical definition is a work are two different things.

Again, show us where in scripture that accepting Jesus' forgiveness is considered a work, that by definition is the very thing that would exclude God's forgiveness.

Same as above.

One no more asks for salvation, in and of himself, any more than a baby asks to be born of his parents.

Maybe it's because you keep asking the question in a way that is non-intelligible.

This is not an apple to oranges comparison. Are you claiming that we dont have a choice in salvation?

Where in the Bible is baptism a requirement for salvation, and where in the Bible is baptism considered a blessing because of Jesus' sacrifice?

Once again, unless you can show from scripture specifically what it is that you're referring to, then all you're doing is building one big haystack of a straw man as your argument.

Well John 3:3-5 for one and consider Matt7:21-24 What are these works and why is the wise man wise for doing these works?

Well, if all of these salvific blessings are contingent on what the sinner does, then don't you think the sinner would deserve them? After all, salvation is really about what the sinner deserves, right? God has no say in the matter, whatsoever, nor does he have a clue as to who will be diligent enough to earn what belongs to the sinner, correct? I guess my question at this point would be, how would you ever know that you've done enough in this life to merit what you deserve?

I guess your point being that we dont actually deserve any thing? Or do we? I didnt realise that God owed us something. How ever consider Rev 22: 14-15

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Verse 14 states that they who od his commandments are they that have right to the tree of life and may enter the city. What are the commandments and what are we supposed to "do"? The word "do" denotes a work does it not?

Please note if verse 15 it states that those that do not have eternal life are those with out the gate that are sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

It doesnt say those that have been saved but still lie. Acciourding to this if you still have a lieing tongue even if you think you are saved you arent. Its that simple. You need to fully repent and come unto Christ. Is salvation a one time deal, or is it a process?

Where does it say in the scriptures that prayer isn't a work?

Where in the scriptures does it say that?

I guess we have the same thoughts, dont we?

[Drewm777]

Where does it say in scripture that prayer is a work?

Doing "something," and doing something that by biblical definition is a work are two different things.

Again, show us where in scripture that accepting Jesus' forgiveness is considered a work, that by definition is the very thing that would exclude God's forgiveness.

Where in scripture does it say that baptism is a "work" or enduring in faithfulness is a "work?" I think you're starting to see my point.

One no more asks for salvation, in and of himself, any more than a baby asks to be born of his parents.

Right, if you're a Calvinist. Many people are not, however.

Maybe it's because you keep asking the question in a way that is non-intelligible.

I won't respond to this the way I'm inclined to. The question is very intelligible, perhaps, however, you're not intelligent.

Where in the Bible is baptism a requirement for salvation, and where in the Bible is baptism considered a blessing because of Jesus' sacrifice?

That's not the issue at hand, and is digressing. The issue is that for LDS baptism roughly equates to the sinners prayer in many evangelical circles.

Well, if all of these salvific blessings are contingent on what the sinner does, then don't you think the sinner would deserve them? After all, salvation is really about what the sinner deserves, right? God has no say in the matter, whatsoever, nor does he have a clue as to who will be diligent enough to earn what belongs to the sinner, correct? I guess my question at this point would be, how would you ever know that you've done enough in this life to merit what you deserve?

You've completely missed the point. Rhinomelon said it best, if you get a gift for Christmas from someone and you have to open it, did you earn it? Do you necessarily deserve it? Salvation is the same. No one deserves it. No one is good enough. But we have to ask for it. (unless you're calvinist, which you clearly are)

[Drewm777]

So, let me repeat the question for the tenth time, and maybe I'll get an answer from someone who thinks my question is intelligible.

What is the difference between free-will evangelicals and Mormons in the concept of salvation? Is it true that both make salvation contingent upon our accepting it? Is this a "work"? Are such evangelicals then guilty of believing they're saved by works?

I'd say there is no difference (other than HOW the salvation is accepted). Both believe salvation is contingent upon it being received. This isn't a work, in the Biblical sense, but it is in a dictionary sense. So, neither free-will evangelicals nor mormons believe they are saved by their works. However, certain works are needed to receive the gift of salvation (ie. you have to open the gift by baptism for LDS or you have to say the sinners prayer, for free-will evangelicals)

Any thoughts?

[Rusty Springs]

Where does it say in the scriptures that prayer isn't a work?

Well, if you're a Mormon, and in agreement with Drewn, then you're already asserting that it is. So, show me. Otherwise, you're committing the logical fallacy of equivocation, and hence your argument is invalid.

Where in the scriptures does it say that?

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

People born of God know about as much about its inception as those who know where the winds comes from when it blows. The same applies to anyone born of their parents. They no more ask, nor are they capable, than the person asking to be born of God, or the person asking the wind to blow. All is in God's sovereign control, and done on God's terms, timing, and way.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

[Rusty Springs]

So, let me repeat the question for the tenth time, and maybe I'll get an answer from someone who thinks my question is intelligible.

What is the difference between free-will evangelicals and Mormons in the concept of salvation? Is it true that both make salvation contingent upon our accepting it? Is this a "work"? Are such evangelicals then guilty of believing they're saved by works?

Since you've changed your question, I'll refrain from answering, and let those "free-will evangelicals" decide whether or not their doctrine is compatible with Mormon doctrine.

I'd say there is no difference (other than HOW the salvation is accepted). Both believe salvation is contingent upon it being received. This isn't a work, in the Biblical sense, but it is in a dictionary sense. So, neither free-will evangelicals nor mormons believe they are saved by their works. However, certain works are needed to receive the gift of salvation (ie. you have to open the gift by baptism for LDS or you have to say the sinners prayer, for free-will evangelicals)

Any thoughts?

Here, once again, you've changed the landscape of your original question, plus you're leaving out a lot of detail in regard to what salvation means to a Mormon. So, when you return to your original question, I'll be happy to respond.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Well, if you're a Mormon, and in agreement with Drewn, then you're already asserting that it is. So, show me. Otherwise, you're committing the logical fallacy of equivocation, and hence your argument is invalid.

Well if your a Calvinist and in agreement with Calvin then you're already asserting that it isnt. So, show me.

Otherwise, you're committing the logical fallacy of equivocation, and hence your argument is invalid.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Will a man who honestly accepts Jesus Christ, acknowledging He is his Savior and Redeemer, and then does more after that, like being baptised, or being a home teacher, will that man be damned?

[Drewm777]

Since you've changed your question, I'll refrain from answering, and let those "free-will evangelicals" decide whether or not their doctrine is compatible with Mormon doctrine.

Here, once again, you've changed the landscape of your original question, plus you're leaving out a lot of detail in regard to what salvation means to a Mormon. So, when you return to your original question, I'll be happy to respond.

Yes, I have narrowed the question a little more from the original question, simply because the original question is clearly not applicable to Calvinists. I thought that was clear, but I had to restate it several times to make it clear.

I defined what I meant by "salvation" early on in the discussion. So, my question hasn't changed, but I have had to clarify to make it more narrow since some people didn't seem to get it.

So, my original question hasn't changed. I'm glad you understand it now so you don't have to waste your time here not answering the question

As you can see from my first, original, unedited post, I wrote:

Wouldn't saying a prayer and asking God to save you, technically speaking, be a "work"? Isn't salvation, in evangelical understanding, made contingent upon the individual doing something? i.e., accepting Christ and asking him to forgive you? Would you be saved if you didn't DO that? (I guess the only exception would be strict Calvinists)

A few posts later I clarified what I meant by salvation. This was long before you came to the thread:

For this discussion when we talk about salvation, I think we should limit the word to mean salvation in it's fullest sense, that is, in the Celestial Kingdom. I don't like talking about salvation in terms of resurrection especially.

Frankly, you just didn't get the question to start with. Don't accuse me of changing the topic.

[Rusty Springs]

Well if your a Calvinist and in agreement with Calvin then you're already asserting that it isnt. So, show me.

Well, I'm not a Calvinist, so for the last time, either show me, or admit that the Bible does not define prayer as a work.

Otherwise, you're committing the logical fallacy of equivocation, and hence your argument is invalid.

Ditto.

[urroner]

Well, I'm not a Calvinist, so for the last time, either show me, or admit that the Bible does not define prayer as a work.

Ditto.

Are you stating that the Bible does not define prayer as not a work? Either show us or admit it or admit to us that you are subscribe to the logical fallacy of argument from silence (argumentum a silentio).

CFR dude.

[Drewm777]

You may not consider yourself a Calvinist, but you clearly accept the first premis of Calvinism, namely that God elects who will be saved and we have no choice in the matter.

That's what your posts seemed to be saying, however.

And that, of course, doesn't do anything for the original question as far as answering it goes.

However, if you believe that receiving salvation is a choice you make, then you're no different than any Mormon, are you?

[Rusty Springs]

Will a man who honestly accepts Jesus Christ, acknowledging He is his Savior and Redeemer, and then does more after that, like being baptised, or being a home teacher, will that man be damned?

That depends on which Jesus you're talking about. If you're talking about the Jesus that was always was, and always will be God very God, then no, that person will be redeemed. If you're talking about a Jesus that somehow became a god through some kind of evolutionary process, who is filially related to Satan, and is of hte same species as everyone else, like his father supposedly is, then yes, that person will be damned.

You see, sincerity is not the key to salvation. Truth is, and believing in the right entity that is truth.

[Rusty Springs]

Yes, I have narrowed the question a little more from the original question, simply because the original question is clearly not applicable to Calvinists. I thought that was clear, but I had to restate it several times to make it clear.

I defined what I meant by "salvation" early on in the discussion. So, my question hasn't changed, but I have had to clarify to make it more narrow since some people didn't seem to get it.

So, my original question hasn't changed. I'm glad you understand it now so you don't have to waste your time here not answering the question

As you can see from my first, original, unedited post, I wrote:

A few posts later I clarified what I meant by salvation. This was long before you came to the thread:

Frankly, you just didn't get the question to start with. Don't accuse me of changing the topic.

Well, once again, I'm not a Calvinist, therefore, it would only seem you are looking for someone with even an inkling of similarity to agree with you, and for what reason?

Are you stating that the Bible does not define prayer as not a work?

You've got it. So, if you think that it is, which apparently you do, then show me otherwise. Where in the Bible does it state that prayer is a work?

[urroner]

That depends on which Jesus you're talking about. If you're talking about the Jesus that was always was, and always will be God very God, then no, that person will be redeemed. If you're talking about a Jesus that somehow became a god through some kind of evolutionary process, who is filially related to Satan, and is of hte same species as everyone else, like his father supposedly is, then yes, that person will be damned.

You see, sincerity is not the key to salvation. Truth is, and believing in the right entity that is truth.

Yeah people, either you worship the Jesus that I had declared and none other else you will all rot in Hell forever and ever. You see people, I can't be wrong.

Well, what about babies who have died right after birth, will they rot in Hell because they didn't accept Christ?

What about all those who died and they never heard about Christ, will they rot in Hell?

[Rusty Springs]

You may not consider yourself a Calvinist, but you clearly accept the first premis of Calvinism, namely that God elects who will be saved and we have no choice in the matter.

And that is biblical. Do you have a problem with a biblical premise?

However, if you believe that receiving salvation is a choice you make, then you're no different than any Mormon, are you?

Or anyone else holding to a non-biblical position, including those subscribing to Hinduism, reincarnation, or any other New Age type of belief which leaves the destiny of one's eternal being up them as gods and goddesses, while God the Creator is held at bay waiting for the sinner to make up his sin-tainted mind.

[urroner]

Where in the Bible does it state that prayer is a work?

I haven't said whether it was or wasn't a work, so I don't have to demonstrate anything, but you are stating quite emphatically that it isn't a work, but you haven't demonstrated that from the scriptures. Therefore, as far as I know, you are teaching extra-biblical doctrine as though it was biblical doctrine.

Now, don't you think it's time to put up or shut up.

CFR!!!!!!!

CFR!!!!!!!

CFR!!!!!!!

[Rusty Springs]

Yeah people, either you worship the Jesus that I had declared and none other else you will all rot in Hell forever and ever. You see people, I can't be wrong.

Actually, it's not the Jesus you declare, but the Jesus that God has revealed.

Well, what about babies who have died right after birth, will they rot in Hell because they didn't accept Christ?

What about them? Or is your view of God's sovereignty so low that once again you believe that He must answer to the fallen creature for whatever decision He makes?

What about all those who died and they never heard about Christ, will they rot in Hell?

You've got it. Because salvation, once again, is not contingent upon the sinner and his nilly-willy way of deciding anything. It's contingent upon the Savior, and His absolutely sovereign, righteous, and just decision to do with His creation as He sees fit.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

That depends on which Jesus you're talking about. If you're talking about the Jesus that was always was, and always will be God very God, then no, that person will be redeemed. If you're talking about a Jesus that somehow became a god through some kind of evolutionary process, who is filially related to Satan, and is of hte same species as everyone else, like his father supposedly is, then yes, that person will be damned.

You see, sincerity is not the key to salvation. Truth is, and believing in the right entity that is truth.

Oh well I guess the Bible doesnt agree with your version of Jesus.

Rev3:14

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

[Rusty Springs]

I haven't said whether it was or wasn't a work, so I don't have to demonstrate anythingâ?¦

No, but your Mormon friend is insinuating as much, and you've come to his rescue. So, is prayer a work or not? If it is, then show me from the Bible where it says as much.

[urroner]

Actually, it's not the Jesus you declare, but the Jesus that God has revealed.

What about them? Or is your view of God's sovereignty so low that once again you believe that He must answer to the fallen creature for whatever decision He makes?

You've got it. Because salvation, once again, is not contingent upon the sinner and his nilly-willy way of deciding anything. It's contingent upon the Savior, and His absolutely sovereign, righteous, and just decision to do with His creation as He sees fit.

So basically, what you are saying is that there is no way you can tell who is or isn't saved. It's not by their works or their lack of works.

Once again, are babies who die immediately after birth damned to Hell since they didn't confess Christ?

[urroner]

No, but your Mormon friend is insinuating as much, and you've come to his rescue. So, is prayer a work or not? If it is, then show me from the Bible where it says as much.

Now, I am only doing to you what you are doing to him, no rescue involved in there. Should I treat you differently than how you treat others? Don't you believe in the Golden Rule or do you expect others to simply accept what you preach as the gospel and to never be questioned?

[Rusty Springs]

Oh well I guess the Bible doesnt agree with your version of Jesus.

Rev3:14

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Pardon me, but the Bible does agree with what I'm saying, otherwise Jesus himself would not have warned about them (Matt. 24:5, 24). Moreover, we have one warning after another in the NT concerning those preaching and teaching false doctrine, all of which believe that they represent Jesus in one way or another. So, once again, if a person gets ahold of a false Jesus, then they're toast, sincerity notwithstanding.

[urroner]

Pardon me, but the Bible does agree with what I'm saying, otherwise Jesus himself would not have warned about them (Matt. 24:5, 24). Moreover, we have one warning after another in the NT concerning those preaching and teaching false doctrine, all of which believe that they represent Jesus in one way or another. So, once again, if a person gets ahold of a false Jesus, then they're toast, sincerity notwithstanding.

Well, the one scripture in the Bible disagrees with you, but why worry about that one verse. Go ahead and ignore it. It's not an important verse anyway.

But then again, why are you preaching at us anyway? If God wants us saved, will it make any difference? If God has damned us to Hell, will it make any difference?

[Drewm777]

Rusty, you're not here for discussion. You're here to contend and fight. Here are a few verses you may have missed in your Bible study.

But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these...wrath, strife, seiditons, heresies...revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

Take your contention, wrath, strife, etc out of your posts or take your posts somewhere else.

In answer to your question, however, I'm not looking for someone to agree with me. I guess my intent is to find out why an evangelical who believes he must accept salvation (that is, he must DO something) would accuse Mormons of being saved by works. I don't believe I am saved by works, and I know he doesn't.