Are Evangelicals Saved By Works?

[jadams_4242]

Hello Friends,

Although I have never claimed to be "evangelical", I believe according to the Bible that "Belief" is not a work.

Consider Romans 4:4-5; Belief is contrasted with works:

"4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

John 6:29 associates belief with "work", but only in the sense that God is the one doing something - not us.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Therefore, to answer your question, "Are Evengalicals Saved By Works?", I would have to say "Yes".

We ["evangelicals"] are saved (given eternal life) by the works of Jesus Christ and not our own.

Mark Taylor

Pensacola, Fl.

That by the works that i do, that so you shall do also.

[Drewm777]

In reformed theology we state that there is nothing you can do to merit God's grace including marching down an aisle and praying a prayer.

We are dead in our sins and God quickens us to life. See Cornelius etal, while Peter was still teaching they were saved.

The question is what is the source of our belief? RT states that God initiates our spiritual understanding and that apart from His work in our life we have no hope.

Yes, Lazarus came forth, but if Christ had not called him what could he have done on his own?

Yes, I understand reformed theology aka Calvinism teaches this. The question is more for those who believe in free-will.

There is nothing you can do to merit Gods grace? Well the origanil question was..Do you not have to

beleive in him? Isnt that "doing" something to merit his grace? is that not a work.

The calvinist response to this is simply that you didn't even choose to believe in the first place. God made you believe, therefore it is his work, not yours.

[Drewm777]

.................................

I'm still waiting for a free-will evangelical point of view. If you have to accept Christ as your savior to be saved, are you thereby saved by works? If so, why? If not, why? How does this differ, in your view, from LDS theology?

I think if I were free-will evangelical my answers would have to be:

1. Yes, I have to accept Christ as my Savior.

2. Such acceptance, I suppose, is technically "a work" because it's something I have to do.

3. This doesn't differ from LDS theology since you believe you must do something to receive salvation as well, namely be baptized, etc. I recognize, however, that neither you nor I believe we are saved by our actions, but by Christ. Our actions only open up Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.

[Tanyan]

238

I thought I referenced that site more than that ! .

[FormerLDS]

.................................

I'm still waiting for a free-will evangelical point of view. If you have to accept Christ as your savior to be saved, are you thereby saved by works? If so, why? If not, why? How does this differ, in your view, from LDS theology?

I think if I were free-will evangelical my answers would have to be:

1. Yes, I have to accept Christ as my Savior.

2. Such acceptance, I suppose, is technically "a work" because it's something I have to do.

3. This doesn't differ from LDS theology since you believe you must do something to receive salvation as well, namely be baptized, etc. I recognize, however, that neither you nor I believe we are saved by our actions, but by Christ. Our actions only open up Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.

This is simple misundertanding of terminology with respect to "accept Christ".

Do you believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ alone is sufficient or insufficient for your eternal life?

[Tanyan]

Some years ago while listening to a Billy Graham crusade I remember him stating that the words "Believe" and "Obey" are linked together. Belief/Believing is an action word in which we come to the alter with to the LORD along with Faith -a Mental and physical effort. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan.

[Tanyan]

This is simple misundertanding of terminology with respect to "accept Christ".

Do you believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ alone is sufficient or insufficient for your eternal life?

Yes if you understand word "Belief" and Obedience are linked together. Heb 5:9 for if you obey you are a believer in along with Faith in The LORD OF LIFE/MASTER CHRIST JESUS.

[Tanyan]

http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/g...y/obedience.php

[LifeOnaPlate]

In reformed theology we state that there is nothing you can do to merit God's grace including marching down an aisle and praying a prayer.

We are dead in our sins and God quickens us to life. See Cornelius etal, while Peter was still teaching they were saved.

The question is what is the source of our belief? RT states that God initiates our spiritual understanding and that apart from His work in our life we have no hope.

Yes, Lazarus came forth, but if Christ had not called him what could he have done on his own?

Did anyone mention that Lazarus wasn't resurrected, only restored to mortality? Christ was the "firstfruits" of the resurrection.

Also, Jesus called him to come forth, but Lazarus walked out of the tomb, Jesus didn't go in there and move his legs for him.

[paulhadik]

Hey Life:

that was my point (by the way drewm, we would never say that Christ MAKES us believe)

Yes, Lazarus walked out...but how far would he have gotten if Christ hadn't called him? his walking out was proof of Christ's powerful working not of Lazarus ability to do it himself or in conjunction. He brought nothing to the table....he was dead.

[urroner]

Hey Life:

that was my point (by the way drewm, we would never say that Christ MAKES us believe)

Yes, Lazarus walked out...but how far would he have gotten if Christ hadn't called him? his walking out was proof of Christ's powerful working not of Lazarus ability to do it himself or in conjunction. He brought nothing to the table....he was dead.

But Paul, didn't Lazarus have to walk out or did Christ do that for him?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hey Life:

that was my point (by the way drewm, we would never say that Christ MAKES us believe)

Yes, Lazarus walked out...but how far would he have gotten if Christ hadn't called him? his walking out was proof of Christ's powerful working not of Lazarus ability to do it himself or in conjunction. He brought nothing to the table....he was dead.

If Christ doesn't MAKE you believe, don't you then believe of your own will and choice, a decision on your part?

[again, Lazarus raising from the dead didn't relate to his salvation; it restored him to mortality.]

[FormerLDS]

Yes if you understand word "Belief" and Obedience are linked together. Heb 5:9 for if you obey you are a believer in along with Faith in The LORD OF LIFE/MASTER CHRIST JESUS.

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Heb 5:9

Those who "believe" are those who obey according to His commandment:

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." 1 John 3:23

There is no point of tangency between saving "faith" and mans "works".

These are contrasted:

Romans 9:32 "Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;"

Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

[LifeOnaPlate]

Interesting stuff, there, FormerLDS. I wonder how you juxtapose those verses with these, from the Book of James 2:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Tanyan]

LOAP, in defense of FLDS he posted scriptures showing that the works of the Law of Moses could not Save them but but that true Faith demonstrated by Faithful obedience [born out of Love for one's Master CHRIST JESUS] will. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan.

[LifeOnaPlate]

LOAP, in defense of FLDS he posted scriptures showing that the works of the Law of Moses could not Save them but but that true Faith demonstrated by Faithful obedience [born out of Love for one's Master CHRIST JESUS] will. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan.

Good call, my friend in the friendly friend way.

www.biblestudystuffbytanyoninhisdebtgrace

[Drewm777]

This is simple misundertanding of terminology with respect to "accept Christ".

Do you believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ alone is sufficient or insufficient for your eternal life?

Yes. It alone is sufficient for salvation.

However, does that mean I'm saved without my consent?

[Drewm777]

I get the impression that you have Calvinist leanings, that is, God saves us independent of what we do. Is that correct?

However, many free-will evangelicals, and LDS for that matter, believe something has to be done to receive the blessings of the atonement. For the evangelicals, one must accept Christ as their savior (usually through prayer or public confession, etc). For LDS we must accept Christ as our Savior, but we do it by obey the laws God has laid down, namely faith in Christ (I think this means, in this context, belief in Christ and belief that he can save), repentance from sin, baptism by immersion, etc. By doing this things we are not robbing Christ's atonement, because we don't believe it's the acts that we do that save us, but rather that Christ is the one who saves. The acts only open the door up to the blessings that he freely gives.

The gift is given freely, but we have to open it up and receive it. I believe that would be an accurate portrayal of free-will evangelical belief, and I know it's my belief as a LDS.

What exactly is your belief, FormerLDS? I'd love to know how you perceive the issue.

The thing that bothers me is that some free-will evangelicals accuse the LDS of saving ourselves by works. I don't believe that's true. I believe there are certain acts, or works, that must be done in order to receive the salvation offered, but that doesn't mean I've saved myself. Anyway, the irony is that technically speaking our basic belief is similar, namely: The Gift is Free, but you have to receive it.

What does God do? Well, he makes salvation available freely to all. What do we do? We conscientiously choose to receive it.

Calvinism, however, teaches that God elects who will be saved and moves upon them to accept Him. They ultimately are saved however, not by their choice, but by God's holy election. Therefore, the question originally posed isn't applicable to Calvinists. I could see, however, how Calvinists could claim that any who accept free-will believe in "salvation by works" since free-will by it's very nature means a choice (which is a work) has to be made by an individual in order to be saved. Without this choice (work) there is no salvation.

[FormerLDS]

Yes. It alone is sufficient for salvation.

However, does that mean I'm saved without my consent?

No, rather "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47

Those who believe have everlasting life. This "belief" is not a work which we do, but that of the savior.

Consider Romans 4:

"4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

[LifeOnaPlate]

No, rather "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47

Those who believe have everlasting life. This "belief" is not a work which we do, but that of the savior.

Consider Romans 4:

"4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Does God make you have that belief, or does it require your own brain to consider it and make a decision to have a belief in Christ?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Consider Romans 4:

"4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Interesting here it says to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned, however if we work not and just believe then are we justified and our faith is counted righteusness. What is faith? Clearly this passage would seem to condratict its self here. In the book of James that is so often quoted it says faith with out works is dead. So one cannot have faith in something if they bring for no works. Also do you hold the view that God makes you do good works once saved? Can only the saved do good works?

[Drewm777]

Does God make you have that belief, or does it require your own brain to consider it and make a decision to have a belief in Christ?

Right, that's the issue. Calvinists would say no it's not your decision, God gives it to you freely. Free-will would say yes, you have to consent to be saved. It's your decision. LDS also say yes.

Are LDS and free-will really that different? That's the topic at hand. Let's not digress.

Further, if they're not that different, how come some many free-will christians accuse us of trying to save ourselves?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Right, that's the issue. Calvinists would say no. Free-will would say yes. LDS say yes.

Are LDS and free-will really that different? That's the topic at hand. Let's not digress.

Further, if they're not that different, how come some many free-will christians accuse us of trying to save ourselves?

This is interesting. If you had no choice in the matter as to things pertaining to salvation or damnation, that would mean that God is both the author of rightesnous and sin. He would make us choose sin versus rightesnous. Since we have no say in the matter, that could be the only out come.

[Drewm777]

bump

[Rusty Springs]

Wouldn't saying a prayer and asking God to save you, technically speaking, be a "work"?

Where does it say in scripture that prayer is a work?

Isn't salvation, in evangelical understanding, made contingent upon the individual doing something?

Doing "something," and doing something that by biblical definition is a work are two different things.

i.e., accepting Christ and asking him to forgive you? Would you be saved if you didn't DO that? (I guess the only exception would be strict Calvinists)

Again, show us where in scripture that accepting Jesus' forgiveness is considered a work, that by definition is the very thing that would exclude God's forgiveness.

If salvation is contingent upon asking for it, aren't evangelicals saved by a work?

One no more asks for salvation, in and of himself, any more than a baby asks to be born of his parents.

I have never had an answer to this that I could understand.

Maybe it's because you keep asking the question in a way that is non-intelligible.

How is this different than requiring baptism or some other ordinance as a means of accepting Christ and/or certain blessings he has made available through his sacrifice?

Where in the Bible is baptism a requirement for salvation, and where in the Bible is baptism considered a blessing because of Jesus' sacrifice?

In other words, is it possible that Christ makes certain blessings available to us that we could never merit or have on our own, but that are contingent upon following a certain law? (ie. baptism for remission of sins, confirmation for sanctification and the gift of the Holy Ghost, sealings for eternal families, etc if you're LDS; if you're evangelical, sincere repentance and a prayer asking for salvation in order to receive salvation)

Once again, unless you can show from scripture specifically what it is that you're referring to, then all you're doing is building one big haystack of a straw man as your argument.

If such blessings may be contingent on something we do, does that mean that we deserve them, or that we earned them, or that we can say we saved ourselves?

Well, if all of these salvific blessings are contingent on what the sinner does, then don't you think the sinner would deserve them? After all, salvation is really about what the sinner deserves, right? God has no say in the matter, whatsoever, nor does he have a clue as to who will be diligent enough to earn what belongs to the sinner, correct? I guess my question at this point would be, how would you ever know that you've done enough in this life to merit what you deserve?