Are Evangelicals Saved By Works?

[Rusty Springs]

So basically, what you are saying is that there is no way you can tell who is or isn't saved. It's not by their works or their lack of works.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Once again, are babies who die immediately after birth damned to Hell since they didn't confess Christ?

The Bible doesn't specifically state one way or the other. Nevertheless, we do know that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and without God's gracious forgiveness of one's sins, that person does spend eternity in hell. So, whether God decides to redeem babies is of no concern to me, simply because I believe that God knows exactly what He's doing in redemption of anyone, whether they're babies or Aunt Edna, who's 109 and dying on her deathbed.

Now, I am only doing to you what you are doing to him, no rescue involved in there. Should I treat you differently than how you treat others? Don't you believe in the Golden Rule or do you expect others to simply accept what you preach as the gospel and to never be questioned?

Since you're not willing to answer the question, then I'll just conclude that your answer is that prayer is a work, and that you're imposing upon scripture something that is not there. Thank you.

[Drewm777]

And that is biblical. Do you have a problem with a biblical premise?

Or anyone else holding to a non-biblical position, including those subscribing to Hinduism, reincarnation, or any other New Age type of belief which leaves the destiny of one's eternal being up them as gods and goddesses, while God the Creator is held at bay waiting for the sinner to make up his sin-tainted mind.

You, of course, with such a statement would cast out almost 90% of all christians and say they're damned to hell on the basis that they actually believe they have to accept Christ, instead of Christ saving them for no reason. That's typical of every person I've met who has calvinist leaning: We're right and anyone who believes otherwise is off to hell.

I guess we'll see who goes to hell.

[urroner]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

The Bible doesn't specifically state one way or the other. Nevertheless, we do know that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and without God's gracious forgiveness of one's sins, that person does spend eternity in hell. So, whether God decides to redeem babies is of no concern to me, simply because I believe that God knows exactly what He's doing in redemption of anyone, whether they're babies or Aunt Edna, who's 109 and dying on her deathbed.

Since you're not willing to answer the question, then I'll just conclude that your answer is that prayer is a work, and that you're imposing upon scripture something that is not there. Thank you.

Interesting reply. You defense, in part, is that you don't know because the Bible doesn't state one way or the other, kind of like the way it doesn't state one way or the other if prayer is or isn't a work.

So, where in the Bible does it say that prayer isn't a work?

[Drewm777]

Can we get back to the real question, then?

Why can't some people stay on topic? It's like some people are constantly looking for anything they can fight about instead of trying to have a serious discussion. Talk about offenders for a word.

[Rusty Springs]

Rusty, you're not here for discussion. You're here to contend and fight. Here are a few verses you may have missed in your Bible study.

And what does the Bible say about judging another's motives? Moreover, in case you missed it in your Bible study (if in fact you actually do that), how many times does the Bible reference the disciples of Jesus as they went about contending and "fighting" for the faith? If you'll start in the Book of Acts, and then read throughout the rest of Paul's, Peter's, John's, and Jude's letters, I'm sure you'll probably find at least one or two references.

In answer to your question, however, I'm not looking for someone to agree with me. I guess my intent is to find out why an evangelical who believes he must accept salvation (that is, he must DO something) would accuse Mormons of being saved by works. I don't believe I am saved by works, and I know he doesn't.

Again, if this is your intent, then you're not being upfront in your questioning, because even your Mormon leaders have stated that you must merit salvation through your obedience.

Man must be redeemed according to law, and his reward must be based on the law of justice. Because of this, the Lord will not give unto men that which they do not merit, but shall reward all men according to their works.—Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:27.

So, if you're going to ask this kind of question, as least be specific as to what you're asking.

[urroner]

Since you're not willing to answer the question, then I'll just conclude that your answer is that prayer is a work, and that you're imposing upon scripture something that is not there. Thank you.

Since you're not willing to answer the question, then I'll just conclude that your answer is that biblically, you can't prove that prayer isn't a work, and that you're imposing upon scripture something that is not there. Thank you.

Oh, you're very welcome, but again, I didn't state whether I believe prayer is or isn't a work so why would I try to prove it one way or the other, so why are you thanking me?

[Drewm777]

Like I said, you're (Rusty) clearly not interested in discussion and you're doing everything you can to derail the topic. I don't have anything else to say to you. Why waste my valuable time?

[urroner]

Like I said, you're (Rusty) clearly not interested in discussion and you're doing everything you can to derail the topic. I don't have anything else to say to you. Why waste my valuable time?

Why do you say that your time is valuable? You're just going to go to Hell anyway. You haven't accepted the Christ the Rusty has taught. Besides, you can't accept him anyway, because if you accepted him, that would be a work, therefore you can't accept him in order to accept him. In other words, in order for you to do something, you must do nothing. I swear that sound almost like Taoist teaching to me.

[Rusty Springs]

You, of course, with such a statement would cast out almost 90% of all christians and say they're damned to hell on the basis that they actually believe they have to accept Christ, instead of Christ saving them for no reason. That's typical of every person I've met who has calvinist leaning: We're right and anyone who believes otherwise is off to hell.

Hey, if the so-called 90% of all Christians believe something contrary to what the Bible teaches on something as basic as the depravity of all human beings because of the presence of sin, then just what kind of Christians are they to begin with?

I guess we'll see who goes to hell.

I can assure you that it will be those rejecting a biblical premise on something as fundamental as sin and salvation.

[urroner]

I can assure you that it will be those rejecting a biblical premise on something as fundamental as sin and salvation.

But you refuse to back up your teachings and beliefs from the Bible, so why should I ever accept what you preach at us as the truth? You demand that others backup their beliefs, but you hold yourself to a different standard, a lower standard of truth. Is your Christ pleased with this lower standard of truth you hold yourself down to?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Pardon me, but the Bible does agree with what I'm saying, otherwise Jesus himself would not have warned about them (Matt. 24:5, 24). Moreover, we have one warning after another in the NT concerning those preaching and teaching false doctrine, all of which believe that they represent Jesus in one way or another. So, once again, if a person gets ahold of a false Jesus, then they're toast, sincerity notwithstanding.

Ok so your totally going to skirt the scripture I quoted becuase it goes against your "view" of chirstianity? Nice. Also those versus apply to you. Wow I can play these school games all day too.

[Rusty Springs]

Interesting reply. You defense, in part, is that you don't know because the Bible doesn't state one way or the other,

No, that's not what I said. I said that I do know that the Bible is silent on the subject, yet speaks quite clearly in other relevant ways in respect to sin, the sinner, and God's sovereignty.

â?¦kind of like the way it doesn't state one way or the other if prayer is or isn't a work.

Incorrect. At least if you're going to make comparisons, then makes sure it's apples with apples.

So, where in the Bible does it say that prayer isn't a work?

When work is defined legally as that which fulfills the Law of God, or, as believing, like Jesus said (Jn. 6:28-29). In neither case is prayer mentioned. Hence, prayer is not a work.

[urroner]

Ok so your totally going to skirt the scripture I quoted becuase it goes against your "view" of chirstianity? Nice. Also those versus apply to you. Wow I can play these school games all day too.

MRSR, it's called "misdirection." Rusty gets caught in his own trap that he dug for us and he tries to misdirect us while he tries to extract himself. I just find it rather humorous when he falls back down in the trap under the weight of his own words.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Why do you say that your time is valuable? You're just going to go to Hell anyway. You haven't accepted the Christ the Rusty has taught. Besides, you can't accept him anyway, because if you accepted him, that would be a work, therefore you can't accept him in order to accept him. In other words, in order for you to do something, you must do nothing. I swear that sound almost like Taoist teaching to me.

You cant accept the Christ Rusty teaches because it is God doing it for you. Oh I see you made that point alraed. Oh well. I guess God is making me type on this message board too.

[Rusty Springs]

Like I said, you're (Rusty) clearly not interested in discussion and you're doing everything you can to derail the topic. I don't have anything else to say to you. Why waste my valuable time?

Wow! If I wasn't interested in discussing this with you, then why would I be spending my time trying? It would seem that the very judgment you're trying to label on me is that which you're guilty. In other words, it would seem that it is you that doesn't want to discuss it, maybe because your whole premise is wrong from the outset, and now you've decided to take your ball and go home. Oh well.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Like I said, you're (Rusty) clearly not interested in discussion and you're doing everything you can to derail the topic. I don't have anything else to say to you. Why waste my valuable time?

I apologize for helping derail this thread. Guys we should take this discussion else were.

[urroner]

No, that's not what I said. I said that I do know that the Bible is silent on the subject, yet speaks quite clearly in other relevant ways in respect to sin, the sinner, and God's sovereignty.

Incorrect. At least if you're going to make comparisons, then makes sure it's apples with apples.

When work is defined legally as that which fulfills the Law of God, or, as believing, like Jesus said (Jn. 6:28-29). In neither case is prayer mentioned. Hence, prayer is not a work.

So, there is no scripture that says that prayer isn't a work. Is that what you are finally admitting?

So when Paul tells us to "work out your own salvation," he was just confused with what he was writing at the time?

What is the Law of God, is it the commandments?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Wow! If I wasn't interested in discussing this with you, then why would I be spending my time trying? It would seem that the very judgment you're trying to label on me is that which you're guilty. In other words, it would seem that it is you that doesn't want to discuss it, maybe because your whole premise is wrong from the outset, and now you've decided to take your ball and go home. Oh well.

Create a new thread then dood.

[Rusty Springs]

But you refuse to back up your teachings and beliefs from the Bible, so why should I ever accept what you preach at us as the truth? You demand that others backup their beliefs, but you hold yourself to a different standard, a lower standard of truth. Is your Christ pleased with this lower standard of truth you hold yourself down to?

Are you doubting that the Bible says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God? If not, then what are you talking about?

[urroner]

Are you doubting that the Bible says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God? If not, then what are you talking about?

Nah, I don't doubt the the truth contained within the Bible, I doubt how you interpret the Bible and your spin on the truth.

[Rusty Springs]

So, there is no scripture that says that prayer isn't a work. Is that what you are finally admitting?

What I'm saying is that works is defined, and prayer is not a part of that definition.

So when Paul tells us to "work out your own salvation," he was just confused with what he was writing at the time?

What does living out one's salvation have to do with anything?

What is the Law of God, is it the commandments?

Did I not mention legal?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Are you doubting that the Bible says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God? If not, then what are you talking about?

Dood, you cant even follow that wich you boldy asserted. You claimed that praying is not a work becuase we cant show you that biblically it is a work. However you have failed very miserably to demonstrate why we should just take your "word" on it. You cannot back up your asserstion "biblically".

[Rusty Springs]

Create a new thread then dood.

Why "dood," would I want to start another thread discussing the same thing as is being discussed here?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What does living out one's salvation have to do with anything?

Nice. I believe it is "work" out your salvation. Not live it. I do not see the words live in that verse.

[urroner]

What I'm saying is that works is defined, and prayer is not a part of that definition.

What does living out one's salvation have to do with anything?

Did I not mention legal?

Only asking questions and never answering any questions is a good ploy Rusty.

Are you saying that "working out your salvation" is the same as "living out your salvation?"