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Are Evangelicals Saved By Works?


Drewm777

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Why "dood," would I want to start another thread discussing the same thing as is being discussed here?

Obviously you are incapable of respect. The member who started this thread asked us to keep it on topic. I am guilty as well of not doing this however you keep trying to derail this thread. Start a new one and we will go were you want it to.

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Dood, you cant even follow that wich you boldy asserted. You claimed that praying is not a work becuase we cant show you that biblically it is a work. However you have failed very miserably to demonstrate why we should just take your "word" on it. You cannot back up your asserstion "biblically".

Hey, "Dood," what did I say about how works are defined? Did I not mention specifically where prayer is missing from that biblical definition? Now, if anyone is "failing miserably" here, it is you, "Dood," by at least providing a similar biblical reference.

Don't come here demanding Biblical references when you're not willing to provide some yourself. = mods

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Obviously you are incapable of respect.

Hey, "dood," aren't you the one to start calling me "dood?" Was that done out of respect?

The member who started this thread asked us to keep it on topic.

It is on topic. The problem is, is that the person who started the topic didn't really want a reasoned response, so now he wants to take it off-topic, and then blame those who managed to show him where his premises were skewed for taking the discussion where he really didn't want it to go. In other words, his equivocation was exposed, and his argument fell apart, and now he's upset about it, or something.

I am guilty as well of not doing this however you keep trying to derail this thread. Start a new one and we will go were you want it to.

The topic is "are evangelicals saved by works," and whether or not prayer is considered works. The answers are NO, and NO. I've shown why. Can you counter what I've said? My guess is that the answer to that is equally NO.

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Hey, "Dood," what did I say about how works are defined? Did I not mention specifically where prayer is missing from that biblical definition? Now, if anyone is "failing miserably" here, it is you, "Dood," by at least providing a similar biblical reference.

Well you are the one that is trying to change the definition of what a prayer is. If I pray is that not a work in and of itself? Praying is an act in witch to communicate with God. Is it not? Are not acts a work. James tells us that faith with out works is dead. How can one have a true faith and not act on it?Since the bible is silent on the matter now what. Are you going to go againt logic on the matter.

Hey, "dood," aren't you the one to start calling me "dood?" Was that done out of respect?

Didnt realise taht calling some one Dood (dude) was rude. I guess you have all sorts of "special" definitions to commonly used words and phrases. Were can I get this Rusty's dictionary?

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What think ye of this scripture in relation to the OP:

(John 6:28-29) "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
Is this not Jesus saying that believing or having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ constitutes a work?
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What think ye of this scripture in relation to the OP:Is this not Jesus saying that believing or having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ constitutes a work?

Wow. I actually never would have thought of that. Nice post.

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I give up. I don't think anyone is interested in answering my question (from the other side of the aisle). Only rhinomelon attempted to, and made some interesting points.

Maybe if I change the question, our zealous calvinist friends will stop trying to derail the topic:

If you're calvinist, would you agree that free-will evangelicals are trying to be saved by works because they have to do something to accept Christ, namely ask for it? (there, now maybe we can get an answer that is on topic)

If so, why?

Do you condemn free-will evangelicals for the same reason you condemn mormons?

If not, why?

The issue is simple. Many Christians believe we have to accept Christ to be saved. That means there is something we have to do. Calvinists believe in a God who created man for no good reason, sends most to hell, and then saves some for no good reason. EDIT: ... (deleted some of my own mean comments towards calvinism)

Having said that, can we discuss what most Christians believe? Calvinists (in the minority) believe that everyone is off to hell but them, apparently. What do the rest of you believe? Do you have to do something to be saved? What? Is it a work? If so, how are you different than Mormons?

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From talking with most of my Protestant friends, only a few, believe that there is nothing we can do, while the vast majority believe that we must do something for our salvation, that it isn't a freebie thing that God hands out to random people. They believe that God won't force anybody to keep the commandments, but one must keep the commandments in order to return back to His presence.

But, I have yet to hear any Calvinist condemn a fellow Protestant for believing in the importance of works the way the Calvinist did in condemning a Mormon acquaintance.

He accused my friend of worshiping a different Jesus, but by his own logic, the non-Calvinists also worshiped a different Jesus.

Oh what an evil web we weave...

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That's a great question MorningStar.

Anybody have an answer? I think it relates well to the topic at hand since it is likely that a free-will evangelical might believe (or others as well) that prayer or faith isn't a work. Why?

The answer it seems I most often get is that if it's something we have to DO to be saved, it must not be a work (like repentance, it can't be a work!) God forbid! That would mean that there are certain works required on our part.

However, if it's something that we do after we're saved, it's a work, but it's not required.

Seems like the term work is defined by a certain theology, and not the other way around.

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I'm curious. Where in the Bible is "works" defined? :P

I'm curious too: Where is Mormonism found in the Bible? Jesus is Satan's brother? "True" salvation, as opposed to, untrue (?) salvation? How does the Holy Spirit indwell everyone, when the Holy Spirit can only be in one place at a time? Where is Kolob? Did God have any brothers or sisters, and just who helped him become a god? Who helped Heavenly Mother become a goddess? I'm sorry, I digress. Mormonism simply causes more questions to be asked than it gives answers, primarily because it espouses multiple doctrines and beliefs that either cannot be found in the Bible (or BoM for that matter), or they simply contradict what the Bible does say. Now, back to the topic. <_<

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I'm curious too: Where is Mormonism found in the Bible? Jesus is Satan's brother? "True" salvation, as opposed to, untrue (?) salvation? How does the Holy Spirit indwell everyone, when the Holy Spirit can only be in one place at a time? Where is Kolob? Did God have any brothers or sisters, and just who helped him become a god? Who helped Heavenly Mother become a goddess? I'm sorry, I digress. Mormonism simply causes more questions to be asked than it gives answers, primarily because it espouses multiple doctrines and beliefs that either cannot be found in the Bible (or BoM for that matter), or they simply contradict what the Bible does say. Now, back to the topic. :P

This is a perfect example of Rusty's overall behavior.

Why not answer the question? Why derail the topic? I'm sick and tired of his behavior. At least now everyone can see how he is acting very clearly.

By their fruits ye shall know them.

Mods, can something be done about this?

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I'm curious too: Where is Mormonism found in the Bible? Jesus is Satan's brother? "True" salvation, as opposed to, untrue (?) salvation? How does the Holy Spirit indwell everyone, when the Holy Spirit can only be in one place at a time? Where is Kolob? Did God have any brothers or sisters, and just who helped him become a god? Who helped Heavenly Mother become a goddess? I'm sorry, I digress. Mormonism simply causes more questions to be asked than it gives answers, primarily because it espouses multiple doctrines and beliefs that either cannot be found in the Bible (or BoM for that matter), or they simply contradict what the Bible does say. Now, back to the topic. :P

Rusty, What does this have to do with salvation or works? You did nothing here but derail this thread. Good job. If you want to discuss the premortal existance open up a thread. If you want to discuss were Kolob is open up your own thread.

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This is a perfect example of Rusty's overall behavior.

Why not answer the question? Why derail the topic? I'm sick and tired of his behavior. At least now everyone can see how he is acting very clearly.

By their fruits ye shall know them.

Mods, can something be done about this?

Lets see, you want to complain about my curiosity to the mods, but when someone else is curious about something equally irrelevant to the threads overall question, that's okay? Aha, I see. :P

Oh, and btw, Drew, I'm still waiting for a few of my questions to be answered as well.<_<

You aren't going to be around that long. Clean up your behavior or you will be packing your bags. ~ Mods

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I'm pretty sure, Rusty, that you're the only one that's changed the topic from being about salvation and what role works play in it to a topic about Kolob, and Jesus and Satan being brothers, etc.

But, I digress. I think someone opened up a new post just for you. Maybe we could really discuss those topics there.

Here's the link: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=28284

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I might add, Rusty, if your real intent is to "win souls for Christ" as you see it, I don't think there's a person on this thread that wants anything to do with you Jesus. Why? Because you represent behaviors that most decent people would not want to have for themselves.

In all honesty and sincerity, you ought to change your tactics.

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Personally, I like what Romans 11:6 says: "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Your absolutly right if it were possible to do it by works alone.Here is a thread just for you. http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...mp;p=1208265424

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I give up. I don't think anyone is interested in answering my question (from the other side of the aisle). Only rhinomelon attempted to, and made some interesting points.

Maybe if I change the question, our zealous calvinist friends will stop trying to derail the topic:

If you're calvinist, would you agree that free-will evangelicals are trying to be saved by works because they have to do something to accept Christ, namely ask for it? (there, now maybe we can get an answer that is on topic)

If so, why?

Do you condemn free-will evangelicals for the same reason you condemn mormons?

If not, why?

The issue is simple. Many Christians believe we have to accept Christ to be saved. That means there is something we have to do. Calvinists believe in a God who created man for no good reason, sends most to hell, and then saves some for no good reason. EDIT: ... (deleted some of my own mean comments towards calvinism)

Having said that, can we discuss what most Christians believe? Calvinists (in the minority) believe that everyone is off to hell but them, apparently. What do the rest of you believe? Do you have to do something to be saved? What? Is it a work? If so, how are you different than Mormons?

"calvinists believe in a God who created man for no good reason...."

"calvinists believe that everyone is off to hell but them...."

"sends most to hell"...

thanks again for illustrating the point I mentioned on the Landover thread

Rusty was correct in raising the point that LDS have a different definition of works than "free-will evangelicals" do. Yes, they may emphasize a prayer or a decision, but they also emphasize that God's working in their lives is what produces good fruits, I think you would find disagreement from them with your assertation that these things are "works" in the same way that they think the LDS define works.

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I might add, Rusty, if your real intent is to "win souls for Christ" as you see it, I don't think there's a person on this thread that wants anything to do with you Jesus. Why? Because you represent behaviors that most decent people would not want to have for themselves.

Again, I'm curious. Why do Mormons always play this emotionally driven card where they say, "I don't like you, therefore, I don't like your Jesus either," when they've lost whatever argument it is that they've presented?

In all honesty and sincerity, you ought to change your tactics.

If answering your question, and showing where your argument is skewed, is a bad tactic, then what is it that you want people to do? Sit by and post sweet accolades that tickle your ears?

Rusty We LOVE YOU !.

I LUV YOU TOO :P

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