Changes In Maya Civilization And Nephite Destruction

[Cold Steel]

Sometimes I think weâ??re too anxious to dismiss observations between the Mayans and the Book of Mormon peoples. I, too, believe in limited geography, but I canâ??t accept the idea that the Nephites and Lamanites were just insignificant drops in a bucket filled with other peoples.

The National Geographic article describes a person who was in the right place (according to most LDS scholars who have studied the issue), at the right time, and who behaved in a way that was consistent with the way that the enemies of Mormon and Moroni were behaving.

Certainly, Fire is Born is not a character specifically listed in the Book of Mormon, but the commander-in-chief of the Lamanite forces had to have a name, and Fire is Born certainly is an appropriate name given that fire is one of the ways that the Lord uses to utterly destroy.

I wonder how Joseph Smith could have known enough to write what he did, if he did, indeed, write the Book of Mormon. The total annihilation of a people, the destruction of records, the sacrifice of survivors, women and children to their idols and their gods. Didnâ??t Mormon have a wife, children and friends? Why would he be so intent on preserving records? Destroying all of an enemyâ??s records in the days of Joseph Smith was impractical; the victors simply rewrote it, as they did following the so-called Civil War. Yet, again, we see the Mayans behaving just as Mormon and Moroni said the Lamanites were behaving.

When the Lord visited the Western Hemisphere in the Meridian of Time, the Nephites and the Lamanites were the dominant peoples living where they were living. And itâ??s clear from the Book of Mormon writers that when the Lamanites fully rebelled and went to war with the Nephites, they were intent on wiping out everything relating to the Christian religion and the Nephite people as they could. And while we shouldnâ??t jump to conclusions regarding any of this, we also should not be too quick to dismiss possible correlations.

[cdowis]

cdowis,

Yes, we still don't know.

Do you have references for the first claim about the land northward?

Hel 3: 11-15.

[cdowis]

I've always thought it was interesting that the Lehites could enter a populated area, and if Brant Gardner is right, assume political/religious leadership because of their superior technology, and yet leave no trace either in the language or history or technology of Mesoamerica.

I find it interesting that you find it interesting. It seems rather plausible to me, having actually read the BOM where, for example, it is clear that the Nephites were no longer speaking and writing Hebrew as the venacular, having read that the Lamanites basically destroyed all trace of the Nephites, including their records, having read the history of the region that the Catholic priests destroyed virtually all written records from that time period, and only a small part of the excavations have been completed from the BOM time period.

Again, this has been mentioned several dozens of times here on this very forum, and I find it fascinating that you pretend that it has never been mentioned.

I have repeatedly given one specific instance of their culture with the discovery of a change in a 1500 year burial practice of the local inhabitants approximately 500BCE which was recently discovered. Again, ignored by yourself.

"Fascinating", Dr Spock with eyebrow lifted.

[poulsenll]

Sometimes I think weâ??re too anxious to dismiss observations between the Mayans and the Book of Mormon peoples. I, too, believe in limited geography, but I canâ??t accept the idea that the Nephites and Lamanites were just insignificant drops in a bucket filled with other peoples.

The National Geographic article describes a person who was in the right place (according to most LDS scholars who have studied the issue), at the right time, and who behaved in a way that was consistent with the way that the enemies of Mormon and Moroni were behaving.

Certainly, Fire is Born is not a character specifically listed in the Book of Mormon, but the commander-in-chief of the Lamanite forces had to have a name, and Fire is Born certainly is an appropriate name given that fire is one of the ways that the Lord uses to utterly destroy.

I wonder how Joseph Smith could have known enough to write what he did, if he did, indeed, write the Book of Mormon. The total annihilation of a people, the destruction of records, the sacrifice of survivors, women and children to their idols and their gods. Didnâ??t Mormon have a wife, children and friends? Why would he be so intent on preserving records? Destroying all of an enemyâ??s records in the days of Joseph Smith was impractical; the victors simply rewrote it, as they did following the so-called Civil War. Yet, again, we see the Mayans behaving just as Mormon and Moroni said the Lamanites were behaving.

When the Lord visited the Western Hemisphere in the Meridian of Time, the Nephites and the Lamanites were the dominant peoples living where they were living. And itâ??s clear from the Book of Mormon writers that when the Lamanites fully rebelled and went to war with the Nephites, they were intent on wiping out everything relating to the Christian religion and the Nephite people as they could. And while we shouldnâ??t jump to conclusions regarding any of this, we also should not be too quick to dismiss possible correlations.

CS

Latter Day Saints have been bombarded so effectively by the phrase "it is just coincidence" that sometimes, I think we have convinced ourselves that all parrallels are just coincidence. The critics and unbelievers will always write off any argument that supports the authenticity of the BofM as coincidence. To do otherwise would require acceptance of its divine origin.

In my opinion, as LDS, we spend an inordinite amount of time trying to justify these parrallels as more than coincidence. If the Book of Mormon is true they are not coincidences but are useful insights into the Book of Mormon culture and tell us about the BofM's cultural interaction with their surroundings.

As beliving Latter Day Saints, we should just ignore this attitude of the critics and use this information to broaden our understanding of the BofM culture. That is not to say, that they constitute proof of the BofM, but to realize that the BofM cultures (Nephite, Jaredite. Mulekite, and Lamanite) actually existed in the Americas for a period of over 3000 years. Although, just as the Isrealite culture was limited to a small geographic area, it is known to have interacted with the culture surrounding it all the way from Egypt to Babylonia, so must the BofM cultures have interacted with the cultures that surrounded them. But also, as we know, the Hebrew culture had little effect on the Egyptian culture, the reverse being the actuality. For example, the Golden Calf episode at Mount Sinai.

Just as we see the effect of these other cultures recorded in the Bible we should and do see these effects recorded in the Book of Mormon. And, just as we see little or no records of the Israelite sojourn recorded in Egyptian archeology, we should not expect to find mention of the BofM culture in the precolumbian archaeology.

A testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, its divine origin and the Gospel it contains does not come from scientific studies, logical arguments or internet discussion groups. It comes from reading it and studying the teachings it contains and then asking God if they are not true as Moroni challenged us.

Larry P

[juliann]

What we should really be asking is, which culture did the Maya come into contact with around 600 BC that gave them the idea of writing?

It is at this point that the countermos will begin talking about proof of leprechans and Santa Claus. Puullleeezzzeee don't go there. Keep it at their level.

A testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, its divine origin and the Gospel it contains does not come from scientific studies, logical arguments or internet discussion groups. It comes from reading it and studying the teachings it contains and then asking God if they are not true as Moroni challenged us.

Reading it would be the key word here. Here comes Santa.....

[Cold Steel]

Latter Day Saints have been bombarded so effectively by the phrase "it is just coincidence" that sometimes, I think we have convinced ourselves that all parrallels are just coincidence. The critics and unbelievers will always write off any argument that supports the authenticity of the BofM as coincidence. To do otherwise would require acceptance of its divine origin.

... A testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, its divine origin and the Gospel it contains does not come from scientific studies, logical arguments or internet discussion groups. It comes from reading it and studying the teachings it contains and then asking God if they are not true as Moroni challenged us.

I agree with both sentiments. From just reading the Book of Mormon, I need no more convincing; however, I believe we should look to scholarly articles to keep as many people honest as we can. What the Nephi Project is doing is incredible as well. It's that "Twilight Zone of Truth" that contains things that may not prove what we say is true, but it also is an area where what we say can't be disproved. And maybe there's a need for such an area.

Twilight Zone of Truth? Aw, it's getting too late. Time to sign off and go to bed before I say something stoopider.

[hagoth7]

I have repeatedly given one specific instance of their culture with the discovery of a change in a 1500 year burial practice of the local inhabitants approximately 500BCE which was recently discovered.

? Can you provide a link to the thread where this was presented/discussed? Thanks.

[Cold Steel]

Scholarship into the Book of Mormon lands is yeilding some fascinating possibilities, and especially research into the Yucatan. People contemplating the historicity of the Book of Mormon should not look towards evidence to determine whether the book is what it purports to be; a spiritual foundation is more than adequate for that. But lacking evidence for the Book of Mormon in that area, we really need to ask if there's anything that would disprove it. Such information would serve towards refining the search.

Those who base their faith on science are building on a foundation of sand. Just in my short life of fifty-something years, I've seen science change dramatically. Any science book more than five years old is almost obsolete. Many of the things I learned as fact in astronomy courses are now not worth the paper they were printed on. (I kept that textbook for decades because of the high quality of the paper and the binding. Only recently when I began doing some bedtime reading did I realize just how fast time had passed it by.)

Although it's tempting for both believers and critics to jump to conclusions, the research in the Yucatan is something we should keep an eye on. I wish that there was one source that would keep an eye on all the free floating theories being published on the Internet. Just in Mesoamerica, there's something like three or four Cumorah candidates. The northernmost one seems to have vanished so I'm not sure where we stand today.

[grego]

Hel 3: 11-15.

I don't interpret that to mean North America.

[poulsenll]

The northernmost one seems to have vanished so I'm not sure where we stand today.

It is still there. There just has not been much discussion of it as a possible candidate. The possibility of a Teotihuacan alliance with the Lamanites (Maya?) suggests that Mormon would have had to go much further north to prepare for the final battle than the mountains in southern Veracruz.

The hill Vigia has the following problems:

1. Mormon wanted a place of advantage. He was a good general and to me it seems unlikely that he would choose a place with his back to the sea and no easily accessible escape routes. In the discription of the final battle we are told that some were able to escape to the south. Or a location that would subject him to a pincer attack by the Lamanites(Maya?) in the south and the Gadianton Robbers (Teotihucanites?) in the north.

2, The Hill Cumorah of the final battle was the same as the Hill Ramah where the final battle of the Jaredites was fought. The desire to equate the Jaredites with the Olmec has caused people to place this hill near the Olmec heartland rather than in accordance with the text in Ether.

Ether 9: 3

3 And the Lord awarned Omer in a dream that he should depart out of the land; wherefore Omer departed out of the land with his family, and traveled many days, and came over and passed by the hill of Shim, and came over by the place where the Nephites were destroyed, and from thence eastward, and came to a place which was called Ablom, by the seashore, and there he pitched his tent, and also his sons and his daughters, and all his household, save it were Jared and his family.

A recent report indicates that another Olmec like culture was located at Tamtoc, Mexico. This culture was located about 50 miles inland from the eastern seashore of the Gulf of Mexico. The location of this culture is more in line with the description in Ether. This would place the Hill Cumorah somewhere inland from the coast near Tampico rather than Veracruz.

The continued insistance in callng the Gulf of Mexico an eastern location relative to southern Veracruz just because it connects to the Atlantic ocean is nonsense. A quick look at the Gulf shows that it is almost completely seperated from the Atlantic by Cuba, Yucatan and Florida. This logic would suggest that the Mediteranean is west of Africa because it is connected to the Atlantic ocean.

I have not spent any time lookinfg for candidates for the Hill Cumorah in this region but Ainsworth has one suggestion and I suspect that a search with Google Earth might uncover others.

Larry P

[John Williams]

I find it interesting that you find it interesting. It seems rather plausible to me, having actually read the BOM where, for example, it is clear that the Nephites were no longer speaking and writing Hebrew as the venacular, having read that the Lamanites basically destroyed all trace of the Nephites, including their records, having read the history of the region that the Catholic priests destroyed virtually all written records from that time period, and only a small part of the excavations have been completed from the BOM time period.

Again, this has been mentioned several dozens of times here on this very forum, and I find it fascinating that you pretend that it has never been mentioned.

I'm not pretending anything, Charles. I'm curious as to where you think this change in the vernacular occurs in the Book of Mormon. Maybe I'm just not very bright (well that's not really in doubt, is it?) but I've never read that, and I've read the Book of Mormon at least 20 times through. I'm not expecting written records, and I'm not sure why you think that is. It seems clear to me that we have a pretty good idea of Mayan/Mesoamerican history, and none of it gibes with the Book of Mormon. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough. Or maybe I'm just willfully ignoring stuff, which seems to be what you believe of me.

I have repeatedly given one specific instance of their culture with the discovery of a change in a 1500 year burial practice of the local inhabitants approximately 500BCE which was recently discovered. Again, ignored by yourself.

"Fascinating", Dr Spock with eyebrow lifted.

Maybe I have ignored it because I can't remember your ever saying like that. Can you refresh my memory. Of course, I may just ignore it anyway.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Isn't it a little strange that the written language wasn't reformed Egyptian?

Really?? Wat does reformed egyptian look like? You tell me what it looks like and Ill point it out to you.

[John Williams]

Really?? Wat does reformed egyptian look like? You tell me what it looks like and Ill point it out to you.

One would assume that it would look something like Egyptian or at least like the characters Joseph Smith copied. But what do I know? I just ignore stuff I don't want to believe.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

One would assume that it would look something like Egyptian or at least like the characters Joseph Smith copied. But what do I know? I just ignore stuff I don't want to believe.

I guess that is were the problem lies. We assume it should look like something. Then we are dissapointed when our assumtion doesnt add up.

[John Williams]

I guess that is were the problem lies. We assume it should look like something. Then we are dissapointed when our assumtion doesnt add up.

Not really. I'm not disappointed.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Not really. I'm not disappointed.

Very well then.

[John Williams]

Very well then.

I guess for now, my position is that there is much known about ancient Mesoamerica. And we have a lot of data from the Book of Mormon about what that civilization was supposed to be. Very little, if any, overlaps.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I guess for now, my position is that there is much known about ancient Mesoamerica. And we have a lot of data from the Book of Mormon about what that civilization was supposed to be. Very little, if any, overlaps.

I think many here would disagree. Also if the whole puzzle isnt uncovered how can we conclude that something should be a certian way?

[John Williams]

I think many here would disagree. Also if the whole puzzle isnt uncovered how can we conclude that something should be a certian way?

I'm not expecting anything to be a "certain way." I just know from my own studies (at BYU, no less) that the more we know about ancient Mesoamerica, the less it looks like the land and people described in the Book of Mormon. Unless God is trying to show us the whole puzzle by removing pieces, something is probably wrong.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Fire is Born translated to Tzeltal Maya

C'ahc ay chacal (the ay is optional)

For some education on the matter

A more literal translation if fire is a person is C'ahc ay ayinon.

In the original Maya: Yax Ayin.

Both ayinon and ayin are very similar to Aaron in the Maya pronounciation. There are unfortunately no R's in Maya.

[Sargon]

A more literal translation if fire is a person is C'ahc ay ayinon.

In the original Maya: Yax Ayin.

Both ayinon and ayin are very similar to Aaron in the Maya pronounciation. There are unfortunately no R's in Maya.

I think your the only person on the board with knowledge of Mayan language. Lucky dog, your mission language is still useful! Mine isn't much.

Sargon

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think your the only person on the board with knowledge of Mayan language. Lucky dog, your mission language is still useful! Mine isn't much.

Sargon

I still speak west virginian. Its pretty useless here. lol.

[Avatar4321]

I was hoping to bump this to see what Brant had to say about it since he was on the forum today.

[Brant Gardner]

I was hoping to bump this to see what Brant had to say about it since he was on the forum today.

I guess I don't have too much to add. The Teotihuacano presence in the Maya area altered the balance of power in the region and appears to have touched off an increase in militarism. Freidel and Schele characterize their influence as altering the nature of military actions.

The time period and the result of the disruption of previous alliances creating a new military pressure fits with what the Book of Momon discusses for its ending period (at the same time). The Teotihuacanos are from Central Mexico (north of the plausible Nephite lands in the Grijalva river basin) and the Maya are to the south. If you check a map, that puts the Grijalva squarely between two power bases intent on creating a safe trade route from Central Mexico to the larger cities in the Maya highlands and the Peten. That would indicate a pretty good military reason to control the Grijalva (and eliminate putative Nephite resistance- or more likely profit).

[Marmonboy]

I suppose it's possible that the Mayans were not the Nephites. But the rise of Teotihuacano militarism, if it can bring down the existing Mayan political system, would have steam-rollered a much smaller, decadent Nephite culture in the same area. I find the timing of the whole thing interesting, to say the least.