Muc'ul Ajwalil Posted October 1, 2007 Posted October 1, 2007 Well, you could argue with an evangelical about whether JC performed miracles and proclaimed himself to be the Messiah. I, on the other hand, do not believe JC was anything but a human man, and I don't believe I am guilty of excusing any of my beliefs from rational examination by this sort of special pleading.Oooh, mysterious ways, is it? There's always the escape hatch for these beliefs, and that's why they are still with us today.Well, those are your beliefs...I have my beliefs too...Joseph Smith said one time that there are many people that are too wise in this world, according to the order of man...
JNclone Posted October 1, 2007 Posted October 1, 2007 Well, those are your beliefs...I have my beliefs too...Joseph Smith said one time that there are many people that are too wise in this world, according to the order of man...Did he say that before or after D&C 93?36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.But (if we are wise) we shall have to make sure we are not TOO intelligent, is that right? And we can tell if we are TOO intelligent (in this world, according to the order of man) if our reasoning processes lead us to a position not in accordance with the doctrines of the CoJCoLDS ... because these are a priori 'light and truth', OK?
Muc'ul Ajwalil Posted October 2, 2007 Posted October 2, 2007 Did he say that before or after D&C 93?But (if we are wise) we shall have to make sure we are not TOO intelligent, is that right? And we can tell if we are TOO intelligent (in this world, according to the order of man) if our reasoning processes lead us to a position not in accordance with the doctrines of the CoJCoLDS ... because these are a priori 'light and truth', OK?When I quoted that (it's in TPJS, forget the page) I was referring to those who using the 'wisdom of man' try to derail that which has been put by the wisdom of God...if you read the entire thing in context you can see that. It is great to be wise...if we are still willing to follow God's wisdom...Bueno es ser instruido, si hagan caso con los mandamientos de Dios...
grego Posted October 2, 2007 Posted October 2, 2007 Sounds like Faith as a Conspiracy Theory. You really think it works that way?The Dude, Did you really have to ask *me*?? -=-=-=I had this discussion recently with my father and brother (both lawyers). My brother was really fascinated by the kinds of conspiracy theories you can find on the internet, whether it's the Bavarian Illuminati, or the US government setting up 9/11, or communists faking the fall of the Soviet Union to put the West off guard. My father and I tried to explain to him why this is nonsense and not worth his time. Every conspiracy theory has a key fallacy: when you ask "if X is true, then why don't we see evidence Y" the answer is always "Because, it's a conspiracy! The people behind it removed that evidence to cover their tracks."Well, see, there you go. If they had had special visitors or professors talk to law school students (since they aren't intelligent enough to think for themselves??) about conspiracies and how stupid they are, your brother wouldn't be in such a hopeless state, unlike you and your father. -=-=-= Why does the BoM leave out key details that would help prove the case? Because Mormon was in on it, and maybe God too, because they wanted us to lack any sort of correlations that would move Book of Mormon studies out of its sectarian niche and into the mainstream of human knowledge. I think you've missed the point if you ask that question. There's plenty in the BoM, if you look. And not just about history and secular things... And it's not *meant* to be about those things. If you're waiting to be convinced because of signs, good luck.
cdowis Posted October 2, 2007 Posted October 2, 2007 So with your faith. Why does the BoM leave out key details that would help prove the case? Because Mormon was in on it, and maybe God too, because they wanted us to lack any sort of correlations that would move Book of Mormon studies out of its sectarian niche and into the mainstream of human knowledge.This is an excellent question, and deserves a thoughtful answer. Let me see what I can do with it.Let me tackle it with a branch of science, quantum mechanics. Many of the laws of qm are accessible only through sophisticated tools. For example, I personally cannot build a particle accelerator or many other of their instruments and tools in my basement. It takes very specialized knowledge to give us the tools to discover the "key details" that we need to understand qm.Thus, it is not in the "mainstream" of human knowledge, but accessible only to those with the tools and knowledge. We can only trust those who claim to have that knowledge, based on their research.The knowledge of the veracity of the BOM is open to everyone who is determined and has a desire to discover it. But it takes specialized tools. Even as the archeologist can tell us little or nothing about QM, he is also limited in his ability to discern spiritual matters with the spade and shovel.The Lord has no interest in whether the "mainstream of human knowledge" can prove the veracity of the BOM. It is the salvation of each individual person that interests Him.So, the personal discovery and knowledge is available to anyone, unlike qm. You just have to be willing to use the tools and tests that the Lord has given us. No secret conspiracy here == the missionaries seek out everyone within the reach of their voice to declare that knowledge. PS. I have no interest in arguing the fine points of my analogy here. You can take notes and learn, or not. Your choice.It is your responsibility to test its truthfulness.
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