Any Blessing Is By Obedience

[ErikJohnson]

Iâ??ve been thinking about an oft cited passage from my LDS days: D&C 130:20-21

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicatedâ??

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Frequently, it was paired up with D&C 82:10â??â??I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say.â?

In Priesthood and Sunday School lessons as well as Sacrament Meeting talks, D&C 130:20-21 would be presented as a recipe for success. A favorite example: If we obeyed the â??law of tithing,â? then blessings would be forthcoming. This assertion would be followed by anecdotes of members paying tithing and then receiving some sort of monetary reward (found money, a new job, etc.). To be sure, obedience to other â??lawsâ? and associated blessings were also used as examples (â??word of wisdom,â? â??law of chastityâ?), but it was tithing-related examples, for whatever reason, I heard the most.

Taken at face value, the passage tells us a quid-pro-quo exchange with God is attainable. And yet such a message is demonstrably false. To begin with, there was only one man who was obedient to the law. And Scripture makes clear that if one fails any point of the law, then in Godâ??s eyes one becomes accountable for all of it (James 2:10). If James is correct together with the D&C, then nothing short of perfect obedience would be required to â??obtain any blessingâ?â??leaving the D&C passage, and any LDS who claimed to have benefited thereby, in a highly improbable spot.

Consider Ecclesiastes 8:14â??â??There is a vanity that takes place on earth, that there are righteous people to whom it happens according to the deeds of the wicked, and there are wicked people to whom it happens according to the deeds of the righteous.â?

Sometimes the wicked do prosper and the righteous perish. Who would deny the validity of the Preacherâ??s observation? Yet how can an LDS member reconcile it with the logic of D&C 130?

And consider Genesis 36â??the whole chapter. Here we have the unrighteous, unbelieving Esau and all his descendents, being blessed in abundance with wives and children (the Bible makes clear that a wife and children are blessings from God). These blessings certainly werenâ??t predicated on any obedience. Esau didnâ??t love God. As a side noteâ??my pastor did a great sermon on this chapter, using it as an illustration of â??common graceâ? and distinguishing it from â??saving grace.â? (http://www.marshillchurch.org/audio/Gen_36_061205.mp3)

Anyway, curious how the internet LDS community interprets D&C 130:20-21.

What say ye?

--Erik

[Zakuska]

Heb. 5: 9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[LifeOnaPlate]

In Priesthood and Sunday School lessons as well as Sacrament Meeting talks, D&C 130:20-21 would be presented as a recipe for success. A favorite example: If we obeyed the â??law of tithing,â? then blessings would be forthcoming. This assertion would be followed by anecdotes of members paying tithing and then receiving some sort of monetary reward (found money, a new job, etc.). To be sure, obedience to other â??lawsâ? and associated blessings were also used as examples (â??word of wisdom,â? â??law of chastityâ?), but it was tithing-related examples, for whatever reason, I heard the most.

I agree; the scripture is sometimes wrested to represent some kind of business deal. I have news for everyone: paying tithing brings blessings, that I believe. I do not, however, believe it assures monetary, temporal, blessings, or that it is some way to ensure all financial stability; that would be absurd.

Taken at face value, the passage tells us a quid-pro-quo exchange with God is attainable. And yet such a message is demonstrably false.

It's false because it isn't what the scripture means to begin with. Joseph Smith gave a great explanation of the concept of obedience leading to blessings, I'll grab the quotes and post them later. Joseph somewhat agrees with you.

To begin with, there was only one man who was obedient to the law.

To the *whole* law. There are some laws anyone can be prefect in; like for example, being baptised. I was perfect in that law. Hooray for me! Unfortunately, I have other problems.

And Scripture makes clear that if one fails any point of the law, then in Godâ??s eyes one becomes accountable for all of it (James 2:10). If James is correct together with the D&C, then nothing short of perfect obedience would be required to â??obtain any blessingâ?â??leaving the D&C passage, and any LDS who claimed to have benefited thereby, in a highly improbable spot.

I don't I'm required to view the scripture the same way you do. No unclean thing can dwell with God, but even you'd agree that there is a law you followed which gave you a blessing. You accepted Christ as your personal Savior, and thus, you are blessed with salvation. That;s the same idea, there.

Consider Ecclesiastes 8:14â??â??There is a vanity that takes place on earth, that there are righteous people to whom it happens according to the deeds of the wicked, and there are wicked people to whom it happens according to the deeds of the righteous.â?

Sometimes the wicked do prosper and the righteous perish. Who would deny the validity of the Preacherâ??s observation? Yet how can an LDS member reconcile it with the logic of D&C 130?

I agree completely. Look at what the early Latter-day saints went through! Property stolen, driven from homes many times, people killed, starved, suffered. If they were doing what was right, where were all the blessings? Of course they (and I) don't interpret the promise the same way you do. It would be wresting the scripture. You have done it herein, and other Latter-day Saints have done it.

And consider Genesis 36â??the whole chapter. Here we have the unrighteous, unbelieving Esau and all his descendents, being blessed in abundance with wives and children (the Bible makes clear that a wife and children are blessings from God). These blessings certainly werenâ??t predicated on any obedience. Esau didnâ??t love God.

The wicked may rejoice for a season, etc. Propsperity as you describe it has never been promised. Quite the contrary, Christ, the perfect one, certainly wasn't rich, etc. What does that say for your interpretation of the D&C scripture? It tears it to pieces! But we learn obedience from the things we suffer.

Thus I agree with you in that the scripture, as you interpret it, is false. When applied correctly, it is true.

As a side noteâ??my pastor did a great sermon on this chapter, using it as an illustration of â??common graceâ? and distinguishing it from â??saving grace.â? (http://www.marshillchurch.org/audio/Gen_36_061205.mp3)

Commercial alert! Commercial alert!

Anyway, curious how the internet LDS community interprets D&C 130:20-21.

What say ye?

I hope I've explained in my response, why you, and others, apply the scripture incorrectly.

[Deborah]

I think the phrase "obedience to that law upon which it is predicated" is key to understanding this and I think many LDS tend to overlook the greater significance. There are many people who have garnered great wealth but do not obey the laws of the gospel. However, they obviously know the laws of obtaining wealth. Blessings related to tithing or the WOW are not necessarily related to the observable. For example we also read "he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming." (D&C 64:23). It appears the blessing of tithing is more significant than financial security. If one is blessed financially while paying tithing it is because he has used good management and has learned to obey the other laws related to this. The blessings of tithing may be coincidental to this but are not necessarily the cause of the wealth. However, I think a key to tithing as well as for all those who have garnered wealth is discipline and the ability to sacrifice in the short term for something greater. Therefore it may not be unusual for a tithepayer to also become financially blessed.

[Duncan]

Even though I have a BA degree and I am in my Pre MA program I have like Grade 3 understanding of Tithing. I have not even paid my tithing yet and I figured out incorrectly how much I would have left after I apid it and I was wrong and have more then I figured. Whatever whatever works for me and I will keep paying tithing!

[LifeOnaPlate]

Deb makes a good point; they were good at following the laws of getting rich.

Parenthetically, the author of "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" recommends donating 10% of your inclome to charity off the bat. It's one of his key steps. There is something to that.

But wealth is not the object of life at all.

[ErikJohnson]

LifeOnaPlate--

Just so I'm clear--are you saying it is sometimes possible to receive a blessing from God without obedience?

--Erik

[consiglieri]

LifeOnaPlate--

Just so I'm clear--are you saying it is sometimes possible to receive a blessing from God without obedience?

--Erik

I understand God makes his sun to shine on the just as well as on the unjust.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Olavarria]

hmmm.....interesting

I think its all just alot easier if we love God, love His children and let the chips fall where they may.

[LifeOnaPlate]

LifeOnaPlate--

Just so I'm clear--are you saying it is sometimes possible to receive a blessing from God without obedience?

--Erik

God sends his rain on the just and on the unjust. Sometimes we can be obedient to a law without really fully understanding the law we are being obedient to, that's the nature of life. As you may remember from your days in the Church the Spirit of Christ lights everyone that comes into the world, urging us to do right, deal justly, walk humbly.

That said, sometimes what you see as a "blessing" may be a trial or curse in disguise, eh?

[ErikJohnson]

I understand God makes his sun to shine on the just as well as on the unjust.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Hey Consiglieri--

Do you think all blessings from God are predicated on obedience?

--Erik

[ErikJohnson]

God sends his rain on the just and on the unjust. Sometimes we can be obedient to a law without really fully understanding the law we are being obedient to, that's the nature of life. As you may remember from your days in the Church the Spirit of Christ lights everyone that comes into the world, urging us to do right, deal justly, walk humbly.

That said, sometimes what you see as a "blessing" may be a trial or curse in disguise, eh?

Hey LifeOnaPlate--

Is this intended as a "yes" or a "no" to the question I asked you? (Is it sometimes possible to receive a blessing from God without obedience?)

--Erik

[Zakuska]

No... because as LOP said... sometimes we are obeying laws that we don't even know about.

[Thinking]

I think the phrase "obedience to that law upon which it is predicated" is key to understanding this and I think many LDS tend to overlook the greater significance. There are many people who have garnered great wealth but do not obey the laws of the gospel. However, they obviously know the laws of obtaining wealth. Blessings related to tithing or the WOW are not necessarily related to the observable. For example we also read "he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming." (D&C 64:23). It appears the blessing of tithing is more significant than financial security. If one is blessed financially while paying tithing it is because he has used good management and has learned to obey the other laws related to this. The blessings of tithing may be coincidental to this but are not necessarily the cause of the wealth. However, I think a key to tithing as well as for all those who have garnered wealth is discipline and the ability to sacrifice in the short term for something greater. Therefore it may not be unusual for a tithepayer to also become financially blessed.

Amen.

When I was still TBM I understood how complex "cause and effect" can be, and I cringed when that "I know all, and will promise you blessings even though I have no leadership position" member would bear his testimony of tithing and promise everybody that if they paid their tithing they would be financially blessed. Whether I believe in tithing or not, I must keep the other "cause and effect" laws (debt management, budgeting, ...) which affect financial stability. Other laws are similarly complex. The WoW promises good health, but that won't happen if I just sit on the couch all day. And then there are factors over which a person has little to no control. My wife is an insulin dependent (type 1) diabetic. Does that mean that she did something wrong and this is her punishment? If I am a victim of identity theft, is it because I am financially irresponsible, or because I didn't pay my tithing?

[Deborah]

My wife is an insulin dependent (type 1) diabetic. Does that mean that she did something wrong and this is her punishment? If I am a victim of identity theft, is it because I am financially irresponsible, or because I didn't pay my tithing?

This relates to what the disciples asked Jesus (and note it wasn't the Scribes and Pharisees, but disciples) in John 9:

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

I think there are some current disciples who have a tendency to ask those same questions. In thinking about the answer, what exactly was meant by the works of God made manifest? Was it speaking of the fact that God whould heal this person and show his power, or was it something much more personal. I think it is much more personal and has to do with each individual's personal struggle to grow by overcoming trials in this life.

Some blessings or cursing are outside our influence. If God could have found 10 righteous people in Sodom he would have spared the city. Therefore the wicked would have benefited from the presence of the righteous. Likewise wicked men can bring death and destruction on a whole nation.

[ErikJohnson]

No... because as LOP said... sometimes we are obeying laws that we don't even know about.

LifeOnaPlate didn't answer the question, Zakusaka. Even if it were true that we could unknowingly keep God's law (or at least a few points of God's law), it doesn't necessarily follow that the answer would be "no" as you have inferred.

Hopefully LOP will get back to us with a direct answer regarding whether it's possible to receive a blessing from God without obedience...

--Erik

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hey LifeOnaPlate--

Is this intended as a "yes" or a "no" to the question I asked you? (Is it sometimes possible to receive a blessing from God without obedience?)

--Erik

I don't need any Pharisaical quibblings over your demonstratable wresting of LDS scripture.

I already pointed out from imperfect mortal eyes what we see as "blessings" aren't always so. Also, that what God blesses us for is not like a call and answer direct response. "Do 'A' and 'B' will immediately or demonstratably follow." We're not assured of that in any wise.

Overall and in eternity, I say all eternal blessings are predicated upon obedience to law.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Amen.

When I was still TBM I understood how complex "cause and effect" can be, and I cringed when that "I know all, and will promise you blessings even though I have no leadership position" member would bear his testimony of tithing and promise everybody that if they paid their tithing they would be financially blessed.

I still cringe. It's rare I hear it from the pulpit, but when I do, I cringe. Good man.

Whether I believe in tithing or not, I must keep the other "cause and effect" laws (debt management, budgeting, ...) which affect financial stability. Other laws are similarly complex. The WoW promises good health, but that won't happen if I just sit on the couch all day.

Preach on, brother!

And then there are factors over which a person has little to no control. My wife is an insulin dependent (type 1) diabetic. Does that mean that she did something wrong and this is her punishment? If I am a victim of identity theft, is it because I am financially irresponsible, or because I didn't pay my tithing?

Thinking, this is my fav. post you've ever written.

Parenthetically, it seems Erik is forgetting to aknowledge the hand of God in all things.

[freakin a man]

Taken at face value, the passage tells us a quid-pro-quo exchange with God is attainable. And yet such a message is demonstrably false. To begin with, there was only one man who was obedient to the law. And Scripture makes clear that if one fails any point of the law, then in Godâ??s eyes one becomes accountable for all of it (James 2:10). If James is correct together with the D&C, then nothing short of perfect obedience would be required to â??obtain any blessingâ?â??leaving the D&C passage, and any LDS who claimed to have benefited thereby, in a highly improbable spot.

The scriptures say over and over again to "keep the Commandments." Now if this means that we must keep the commandments perfectly 100% of the time, then we can't and Christ was a fool for even asking us to do so. However if Christ and others said "keep the commandments" over and over again did not suggest that we had to keep the perfectly 100% of the time but just do our best and when we fall, repent and keep moving forward, then this would be the answer to your question.

Also the passages you present above basically deal with the Law of Moses which is the "Law" from the Old Testament. A large number of the rules under that law don't apply to us today. LDS are not under the Law of Moses so these passages may not be the best to use. Rather we under the Law of the Gospel.

[Fly Fisherman]

I believe the D&C is correct: that it is because of obedience that we receive any blessing. However, we don't necessarily always deserve the reward, or, in other words, we don't really pay a price equal to the reward. I believe the rewards of God will be far, far, beyond the obedience required to receive them.

Latter-Day Saints believe in the pre-existence. We know we had to be obedient in some manner there. If, as it seems that there are blessings given where the obedience is unknown, or as it seems, there really wasn't obedience, as in the case of Esau, the blessings could be because of some obedience by Esau in the pre-existence. If nothing else, just being obedient to come to earth might be enough to warrant the blessings to Esau, or "the sun to shine on the wicked". After all, the wicked were obedient in their choice to come to earth. God may choose to give blessings based on that simple act of obedience. The blessings may be far, far greater than we can possibly imagine. So much greater, that we cannot really "earn" these blessings by paying a price equal to the blessing, but receive them by committing the act of obedience required to receive the blessing. Hence the "grace" of God. We don't really pay an equal price for them, but put ourselves in a position to receive them by obedience.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Erik: review Mosiah 2-

20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should drejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with anotherâ??

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you cbreath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to anotherâ??I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the bdust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.

So we're indebted forever, we're immediately blessed. But I ask: in what way, and what is a "blessing?"

[ErikJohnson]

I don't need any Pharisaical quibblings over your demonstratable wresting of LDS scripture.

I already pointed out from imperfect mortal eyes what we see as "blessings" aren't always so. Also, that what God blesses us for is not like a call and answer direct response. "Do 'A' and 'B' will immediately or demonstratably follow." We're not assured of that in any wise.

Overall and in eternity, I say all eternal blessings are predicated upon obedience to law.

Hey LifeOnaPlate--

You don't seem to like my question very much. Do you think it is sometimes possible to receive a blessing from God without obedience? If your answer is "no"--just say so. If you're not sure--I'm okay with that. But there's no need to accuse me of pharisaical quibbling just for asking you to provide a direct answer.

--Erik

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hey LifeOnaPlate--

You don't seem to like my question very much. Do you think it is sometimes possible to receive a blessing from God without obedience? If your answer is "no"--just say so. If you're not sure--I'm okay with that. But there's no need to accuse me of pharisaical quibbling just for asking you to provide a direct answer.

--Erik

I beg to differ; you don't seem to like my answer. This is where your arrogance towards the doctrine of the Latter-day Saints shines like the sun. You set your doctrinal trap, but when it sprung there was no captured beast therein.

I have already answered:

Overall and in eternity, I say all eternal blessings are predicated upon obedience to law.

What makes blessings predicated on law possible? The atonement of Jesus Christ.

Alma 22:14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and cdeath of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

Accept Christ (obey the law) be blessed (with eternal life.)

I do thank you, you've given me a lot of food for thought on the subject, I am going to look further and perhaps prepare a blog entry in the future.

[freakin a man]

And consider Genesis 36â??the whole chapter. Here we have the unrighteous, unbelieving Esau and all his descendents, being blessed in abundance with wives and children (the Bible makes clear that a wife and children are blessings from God). These blessings certainly werenâ??t predicated on any obedience. Esau didnâ??t love God. As a side noteâ??my pastor did a great sermon on this chapter, using it as an illustration of â??common graceâ? and distinguishing it from â??saving grace.â? (http://www.marshillchurch.org/audio/Gen_36_061205.mp3)

When you fail to account for issues like the premortal existence, you are missing some important components. I believe our obedience before we where born on this earth qualified us to receive certain things while we are here. How we use these things while we are here then qualifies us to receive more if we are obedient and not receive more if we are not. A good example is the parable of the talents. Talents are blessings from God. God blessed each one of those individuals with certain talents. Those that where obedient and used those talents where blessed with more. The man who buried his talent was not blessed but cursed.

[ErikJohnson]

"Pharisaical quibblings," "arrogance... shines like the sun"

I wouldn't post such things about you, LifeOnaPlate. Is my question really so bad?

--Erik