Any Blessing Is By Obedience

[ErikJohnson]

LifeOnaPlate--

If you've already compiled a list of questions that I somehow missed, please cut and past them for me and repost them, rather than provide a link that simply takes me back to page three of in this thread. Frankly, that page is a bit of a mess, beginning with grego's indictment of my entire posting history ("despicable behavior") and concluding with your several posts at the end haranguing me about not responding fast enough ("anyone, anyone, buehler"). Between the two of you, I'll admit I may have overlooked something in the middle. Perhaps you'll even be kind enough to number them, so we can keep track.

Also, what's with the repeated references to being on Larry King? Does it have something to do with Gordon B. Hinkley's performance on that program a few years back? If it's a joke--I don't get it. Kindly explain it to me and why you think I ought to be on his show.

--Erik

[LifeOnaPlate]

I don't know what browser you're using, or if you know how to use it, but the link I provided takes you directly to my question-laden post.

Larry King joke is a reference to the "honest answers" of the un-esteemed Agent Shafavoloff.

[grego]

So, you asked me to drop it and stick to the topic, then you bring it up twice more.

So, for the third time, then:

I'm wondering about a few questions I'm curious to hear answers to:

QUOTE

And Scripture makes clear that if one fails any point of the law, then in Godâ??s eyes one becomes accountable for all of it (James 2:10). If James is correct together with the D&C, then nothing short of perfect obedience would be required to â??obtain any blessingâ?â??leaving the D&C passage, and any LDS who claimed to have benefited thereby, in a highly improbable spot.

Do you actually believe James means it like that? That if you think one bad thought, that you are guilty of mass murder, apostacy, and adultery?

Blessings do come to people, for reasons. Do you find any Bible verses that make that statement false? Do you find any in support of it?

Or are you saying that everything good is ONLY and *strictly limited to* because of the grace of God?

Do you consider the obedience of others, not just one person? When one fasts and prays for another, does that have an effect on someone other than himself? Are there any Biblical verses to support that?

Has anyone ever said "Monetary blessings of richness will surely be paid out quickly every time one pays tithing?"

Are blessings also based on/ related to one's faith in obeying and laying claim on a blessing, not just the obedience to a law/ commandment?

Do not the Bible AND the BoM contain Malachi 3? Is what you're talking about, not the second topic of that chapter? What about the first topic--are not blessings promised for those who obey? How do you connect the the two? Is there a reason they are put next to each other?

...is all fair against ...LDS... in war for the kingdom of God?

[ErikJohnson]

Hey grego--

Appreciate your patience. Here are my answers to your questions--

Do you actually believe James means it like that? That if you think one bad thought, that you are guilty of mass murder, apostacy, and adultery?

Yes. The ESV reads: "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it" (James 2:10). Cross reference this to Galations 3:10: "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."

I think you can take those words at face value, grego. The Bible contains hard sayings (John 6:60). Many will not believe. Jesus himself says, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father" (John 6:65).

Blessings do come to people, for reasons. Do you find any Bible verses that make that statement false?

See the OP citation of Ecclesiastes 8:14, grego.

Do you find any in support of it?

I know of nothing in the Bible that reads like D&C 130:20-21

Do you consider the obedience of others, not just one person? When one fasts and prays for another, does that have an effect on someone other than himself? Are there any Biblical verses to support that?

Cite any passages you wish, grego, and we can discuss them.

Has anyone ever said "Monetary blessings of richness will surely be paid out quickly every time one pays tithing?"

Not to my knowledge. Did someone assert such words were used ("quickly, "every time")? I certainly didn't.

Are blessings also based on/ related to one's faith in obeying and laying claim on a blessing, not just the obedience to a law/ commandment?

Not sure we could ever be in a position to "lay a claim on a blessing," grego. Isaiah tells us "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (64:6) in the eyes of God. Do you have a passage from the Bible that supports your idea?

Do not the Bible AND the BoM contain Malachi 3? Is what you're talking about, not the second topic of that chapter? What about the first topic--are not blessings promised for those who obey? How do you connect the the two? Is there a reason they are put next to each other?

God does promise blessings for those who obey him, grego. That is not in dispute. The problem is that no one actually lives up to that standard, no one is truly obedient (although some think they are).

...is all fair against ...LDS... in war for the kingdom of God?

Not sure what you have in mind here, grego--but hopefully I've made a fair response to you. I've certainly tried to.

--Erik

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hmm this is interesting. Erik first off thank you for taking the time to respond. I know how life can be.

Ok as for obediance to Gods law. Are his commands just suggestions? also how do you interpret

Matt 7:21-27

And I agree that salvation is ultimatly through grace on Christ, there is no other way.

Also if I am saved, according to what I see you type, is that I can do what ever I want because in the end I'm saved by this free gift of Christ and sin has no hold on any thing I do. Even if I kill somebody??

Please dont tell me that if I'm saved I wouldnt want to do that. THat isnt what I asked. THe question is once I have been saved If I kill somebody then am I saved??

Erik I think you missed my questions here. THanks for your time.

[consiglieri]

Hey Consiglieri--

Do you think all blessings from God are predicated on obedience?

--Erik

Sorry for the delay.

I've been away for a bit.

In answer to your question, I think that all blessing of an eternal nature are, in fact, predicated upon obedience.

But we could also look at good things that happen to people in this life as blessings, but not blessings of an eternal nature. Here is where I think God causes his sun to shine on the just and on the unjust.

But I do think that eternal blessings must be predicated on obedience.

If they are not, what are we left with, but a capricious God?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

I'm Consiglieri's evil cousin, so hopefully I can answer this...

Every blessing from G-d is predicated on obedience.

Sometimes though, the blessing isn't due to our obedience, but due to G-d's or Christ's.

All the evil Best!

Stuglieri

No wonder I have been away.

My host personality took control for a few days.

But I do think that my host personality may have made a good point.

All the Best!

--The good Consiglieri

[LifeOnaPlate]

Yes. The ESV reads: "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it" (James 2:10). Cross reference this to Galations 3:10: "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."

What is "the Law"?

I know of nothing in the Bible that reads like D&C 130:20-21

Truly, the verse isn't quoted from the Bible. [if it was, Joseph would again be labeled a plagiarist.) But you really don't see the concept displayed therein?

Not sure we could ever be in a position to "lay a claim on a blessing," grego. Isaiah tells us "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (64:6) in the eyes of God. Do you have a passage from the Bible that supports your idea?

How does our good works being "as filthy rags" indicate God doesn't want them? I don't believe your connection. A 2-year old draws a pretty crappy picture, but I'm still hanging it on my fridge.

God does promise blessings for those who obey him, grego. That is not in dispute. The problem is that no one actually lives up to that standard, no one is truly obedient (although some think they are).

So God promises to bless us if we do something He knows is impossible for us to do; namely: complete and total obedience with no mistakes? That would be a problem. That is a falsehood, as you assert, and the D&C scripture agrees.

[ErikJohnson]

Hey LifeOnaPlate--

Good questions. Hopefully I can do them justice.

What is "the Law"?

My understanding is that â??the lawâ? in the context of those verses refers to the Books of Moses. The Hebrew Bible is divided into three sectionsâ??The Law, The Prophets, and The Writings. The New Testament makes an apparent reference to this tripart grouping of books (Luke 24:44). But possibly the references are intended to encompass all the books of the Old Testament.

Truly, the verse isn't quoted from the Bible. [if it was, Joseph would again be labeled a plagiarist.) But you really don't see the concept displayed therein?

No, I donâ??t think the concept is displayed in the Bible. And you may recall I cited two passages in my opening post that I think directly contradict D&C 130:20-21. And now it seems a couple of LDS actually agree with me, because they have responded that D&C 130:20-21 doesnâ??t really mean all blessings when says â??all blessings.â? According to them, â??all blessingsâ? means some blessingsâ??specifically eternal ones.

How does our good works being "as filthy rags" indicate God doesn't want them? I don't believe your connection. A 2-year old draws a pretty crappy picture, but I'm still hanging it on my fridge.

You may not appreciate how extreme Isaiah 64:6 actually is, LifeOnaPlate. Those â??filthy ragsâ? (KJV) translate to menstrual rags from the original Hebrew. It is NOT the equivalent of a two-year old childâ??s drawing taped to the fridge. A used tampon would be closer to the truth. Picture that and then youâ??ll begin to understand Isaiahâ??s meaning.

So God promises to bless us if we do something He knows is impossible for us to do; namely: complete and total obedience with no mistakes? That would be a problem. That is a falsehood, as you assert, and the D&C scripture agrees.

God DOES demand what is impossible for us, LifeOnaPlate. He demands we be â??perfectâ? even as He is perfect (Matthew 5:48). And it is a â??problemâ?â??as you rightly supposed it would be. Thatâ??s why we must have the righteousness of Jesus to be saved, LifeOnaPlate. Justification is by faith in Jesus Christ.

You should get a good, modern translation of the Bible (too much is lost in the archaic grammar and language of the 400 year-old KJV) and read the Gospel of John, LifeOnaPlate. I think it would be a real eye-opener for you, based on the questions youâ??re asking. The ESV and NASB are both excellent, but any mainstream translation will do. And I understand you have some time on your hands...

;0)

--Erik

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

God DOES demand what is impossible for us, LifeOnaPlate. He demands we be â??perfectâ? even as He is perfect (Matthew 5:48). And it is a â??problemâ?â??as you rightly supposed it would be. Thatâ??s why we must have the righteousness of Jesus to be saved, LifeOnaPlate. Justification is by faith in Jesus Christ.

You should get a good, modern translation of the Bible (too much is lost in the archaic grammar and language of the 400 year-old KJV) and read the Gospel of John, LifeOnaPlate. I think it would be a real eye-opener for you, based on the questions youâ??re asking. The ESV and NASB are both excellent, but any mainstream translation will do. And I understand you have some time on your hands...

;0)

--Erik

Oh good. Then Im saved and I dont have to worry any more about trying. I believe Jesus is the Savior of the world and my works are now justifed. Whew. I have faith. BTW you still miss my poor measly post.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hey LifeOnaPlate--

Good questions. Hopefully I can do them justice.

My understanding is that “the law” in the context of those verses refers to the Books of Moses. The Hebrew Bible is divided into three sections—The Law, The Prophets, and The Writings. The New Testament makes an apparent reference to this tripart grouping of books (Luke 24:44). But possibly the references are intended to encompass all the books of the Old Testament.

Good answer. The law of Moses. Christ brought a higher law.

No, I don’t think the concept is displayed in the Bible. And you may recall I cited two passages in my opening post that I think directly contradict D&C 130:20-21. And now it seems a couple of LDS actually agree with me, because they have responded that D&C 130:20-21 doesn’t really mean all blessings when says “all blessings.” According to them, “all blessings” means some blessings—specifically eternal ones.

This is why scripture isolation is a stone of stumbling.

You may not appreciate how extreme Isaiah 64:6 actually is, LifeOnaPlate. Those “filthy rags” (KJV) translate to menstrual rags from the original Hebrew. It is NOT the equivalent of a two-year old child’s drawing taped to the fridge. A used tampon would be closer to the truth. Picture that and then you’ll begin to understand Isaiah’s meaning.

Hmm. Just curious, but do you have a source on that?

Also, if a child honestly believed they were offering a good gift, even if it was terrible, a loving God might understand the effort.

God DOES demand what is impossible for us, LifeOnaPlate. He demands we be “perfect” even as He is perfect (Matthew 5:48). And it is a “problem”—as you rightly supposed it would be. That’s why we must have the righteousness of Jesus to be saved, LifeOnaPlate. Justification is by faith in Jesus Christ.

On that we are agreed. We just disagree on what faith entails. That is my next question for you, namely: How does one demonstrate faith in Christ sufficient for salvation? By your definition I already qualify, as I indeed have faith that Jesus is the Christ.

You should get a good, modern translation of the Bible (too much is lost in the archaic grammar and language of the 400 year-old KJV) and read the Gospel of John, LifeOnaPlate. I think it would be a real eye-opener for you, based on the questions you’re asking. The ESV and NASB are both excellent, but any mainstream translation will do. And I understand you have some time on your hands...

You assume I have only read the KJV. In that, you are wrong. Besides; if the Bible is perfect, why use a different translation?

[grego]

Let me see if I can sum up Erik's argument:

The Bible gives multiple examples of God giving commandments, with promised blessings for them, and commentary on how people got those blessings; but He knows that we can never live up to any of them.

Yet, many do live up to them, and as Zakuska pointed out, more than just one. God says, believe, and we believe. God says, "Don't murder", and most don't.

Thus, even though we obey a commandment, we don't really obey any of the commandments.

And, because we have sinned in at least one thing, we are just as responsible for every single other sin there is; and we are all equally evil in the eyes of God.

(Thus, the Bible contradicts itself, but we can allow a few here and there.)

Yet, Christ obeyed all the commandments, so if we follow him, we're ok.

But LDS, even though they follow Christ, since it's not up to Erik's interpretation of the Bible and special dictionary definition, aren't really Christian, so they aren't saved.

Well, wait--no following is really necessary. Forget what Jehovah and Christ and the apostles said about obedience, baptism, works, blessings with promises, etc. Forget about what many stories in the Bible teach. There really is no connection.

So, since Erik broke a law, as James says in the Bible, he is, and will never be, better than the worst, stupidest Mormon.

But wait, that's the same James that talks about works being necessary, so I don't know how much we can trust *that* verse.

Because really, it's all about faith and grace.

But wait, we are commanded to "believe", "be believing", etc. So, faith is a commandment. Since we can't obey any commandments, or because we fail in one point, so we fail them all, we can't believe. So, who does our believing for us? I can't see any other answer than God.

So, God saves us, by making us believe in Jesus, even though we are commanded to believe with faith, so there's no agency involved--it truly is a complete gift of grace from God. There really is no need for anyone other than Christ to do anything at all.

(So why Erik is here, I have no idea. )

Many others in other posts have tried to explain to Erik about grace, the atonement, etc. Somehow, all that, plus ?? years in the LDS church, can't break through his wall of pure grace understanding.

But that's a good thing, because then Erik might be like a Mormon. Even though James says he's as guilty as one, at least he's not one... But he's still guilty of being one, even though he's not one.

IOW: Sorry, the god of your mind has waaaaaay too many contradictions for me to be *able* to worship him, much alone *want* to.

Perhaps I am the only one that sees the contradictions, but if so, so be it.

Perhaps being a father will one day help you understand obedience and blessings. At least, one could hope.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Exactly. Having faith requires a conscious decision, and thus, is a work.

[paulhadik]

Hey Life:

while I didn't agree with everything you said I have appreciated your comments on this thread. I think all people experience God's blessings on earth regardless of their spiritual relationship as you mentioned in Eccl. This is due only to God's grace and nothing anyone has done. As I don't hold to a pre-mortal existence we will diverge here.

I do hold to God's election of the Saints. While it may appear "arbitrary" to us, I don't believe God does anything arbitrarily. To me I could ask, "what was God doing waiting 1800 years to restore the Gospel, that appears arbitrary" and you would disagree. We both have a level of faith in God's actions regardless of our inability to always understand His ways.

When it comes to the greatest blessing of salvation, I don't believe the good works that we do will ever be enough to merit His greatest outpouring of grace. This is 100% from Him alone. So in a way I would say that this blessing has nothing to do with obedience.

however, scripture is clear, that there are blessings available to those who are obedient. We are told that a long life comes to those who honour their parents; that Israel's children would be free from all diseases if they followed the laws of God (not so easy though)

so yeah, it looks like a tricky question...hope I have answered some of the EV side of things

Exactly. Having faith requires a conscious decision, and thus, is a work.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hey Life:

while I didn't agree with everything you said I have appreciated your comments on this thread. I think all people experience God's blessings on earth regardless of their spiritual relationship as you mentioned in Eccl. This is due only to God's grace and nothing anyone has done. As I don't hold to a pre-mortal existence we will diverge here.

Sounds good.

I do hold to God's election of the Saints. While it may appear "arbitrary" to us, I don't believe God does anything arbitrarily. To me I could ask, "what was God doing waiting 1800 years to restore the Gospel, that appears arbitrary" and you would disagree.

I do disagree that it's not arbitrary, but not out of hand- I feel like the premise is wrong. God can't force the gospel onto people. The apostasy showed more about mankind than it showed about God and His willingness to bless His children. Not only that, but how many scattered groups had parts of the restored gospel, perhaps even priesthood at certain points? We don't know. Additionally, the gospel is being preached in the spirit world, and has been since Christ began the work after His death. The gates of hell, as Christ told Peter, couldn't prevail against the Church. They can't, and they didn't.

Can you explain the "election of the saints" as you understand it?

We both have a level of faith in God's actions regardless of our inability to always understand His ways.

That's crucial to faith.

When it comes to the greatest blessing of salvation, I don't believe the good works that we do will ever be enough to merit His greatest outpouring of grace. This is 100% from Him alone. So in a way I would say that this blessing has nothing to do with obedience.

But LDS theology agrees with that; without the atonement of Christ nothing you do could restore you from your fallen state.

however, scripture is clear, that there are blessings available to those who are obedient. We are told that a long life comes to those who honour their parents; that Israel's children would be free from all diseases if they followed the laws of God (not so easy though)

so yeah, it looks like a tricky question...hope I have answered some of the EV side of things

This is a much more reasonable approach than some EV's have. Erik J. claims he can find no examples of obedience leading to blessings. Frankly that shocks me.

I think the difference might be in an misunderstanding of what "obedience" actually is. This is why I have repeatedly asked Erik to define what he believes obedience to be. I think it would be a much different definition than the one I have.

What does it mean to "keep the commandments?"

For one among many things, keeping the commandments means wanting to live by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God; it means wanting to live as He would have us live; it means seeking to know and do the will of God. By doing so, we are blessed. This is a fundamental concept of Christianity. It is an "If-Then" relatiosnhip with God. If you accept and have faith in Christ, then you are saved. The blessing of being saved is predicated on something WE must do: have faith in Christ. Where LDS and EV's part the ways is how they define faith. The basic premise is the exact same thing, however.

Why is obedience to God seen as such a drag? Such a burden? It is compared to menstrul rags? I'm sorry, but there is more to it than an isolated Isaiah scripture. Obedience to God's commandments is a blessing, not a curse and obligation. "Commandment" is often associated with the idea of the Ten commandments, specifically; the strict laws, etc. Those basic laws weren't just done away with; a higher law was given. Why do the teachings of Paul get more play from some EV's than, say, the Sermon on the Mount? Christ was very explicit in His teachings there. Those commandments we are expected to at least try to obey. And when we fall the atonement of Christ is there to lift us up, to make beauty from ashes.

It started at the very beginning: by the sweat of your brow you shall earn your daily bread. We plant, we water, but God gives the increase.

God commands us to pray. By obeying that commandment I am blessed with a closer relationship to God. Does Erik J believe prayers are answered? That's a blessing stemming from our obedience to the commandment.

Reading the scriptures is a commandment: "search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life." If we do so, we will learn more about God. We will be inspired by the Holy Ghost. Why deny the power of the word to inspire mankind to be better people? Obeying the commandment to read is an awesome blessing.

Loving one another is a commandment. That one speaks for itself. Keep that commandment and you will be blessed.

Why is obedience so wrong? Can anyone tell me? I realize full well my obedience would amount to nothing without Christ, I realize that. But why cast myself off as a useless piece of crap, and constantly harp that everything I do is a used tampon? This denies the power of Christ to make our efforts wonderful. Why persecute the LDS Church for doing what they honestly believe brings them closer to God? I can't understand the Unchristianity of the protesting and arguments over scripture. It grieves the Spirit of God. If our righteous acts are like filthy rags, what are our mean acts? But Christ has power to take both the good and evil we do and turn it to our benefit. That's a total blessing predicated on faith in Jesus Christ. What are we supposed to preach? That man is a piece of garbage and that they need to forget ever doing anything good for the Lord? The Book of Mormon offers a splendid treatise on this subject in Mosiah 2, but I'll go ahead and respond using Isaiah, from which Erik quoted earlier, and this is my gospel:

Isaiah 61:3

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim iliberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of drighteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

He takes those filthy rags we must offer to him, and returns them as a white robe of righteousness, cleansed by His blood. He makes beauty from the ashes; but He needs us to allow this to happen through our obedience. How often would He gather us and we would not!

[LifeOnaPlate]

Bump for bump.

[grego]

Erik,

Now that we've talked about obedience and blessings, let's talk about the other fun part--curses.

Is there such a thing as a curse?

If so:

How does it happen?

Where does it originate from?

Why is it "given"?

As with blessings, does it *only* happen because one rejects Jesus Christ?

[Tanyan]

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/obey.htm

My late contribution. Tanyan.

[cksalmon]

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/obey.htm

My late [and only?--cks] contribution. Tanyan.

Hi Tanyan--

See here.

And here.

I do appreciate that you're now linking to specific articles by Dan. I think that's a step in the right direction.

I am curious, though, why you incessantly link to the website of an evangelical who believes Mormonism is satanic. Surely, there are better sources for your viewpoints.

Best.

CKS

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hi Tanyan--

See here.

And here.

I do appreciate that you're now linking to specific articles by Dan. I think that's a step in the right direction.

I am curious, though, why you incessantly link to the website of an evangelical who believes Mormonism is satanic. Surely, there are better sources for your viewpoints.

Best.

CKS

Any response to my last few posts?

Best!

[paulhadik]

Life:

whenever I see a sentence like "he needs us to allow this to happen through our obedience" I wonder. Once you make God's Grace on any level contingent on our obedience, then the question must be asked what hope can I ever put in the promises of God if all it takes is stubborn and sinful man to screw it up.

I would never say obedience is wrong, we are repeatedly commanded to be obedient and blessings will ensue, but there is not a blessing in my life that I can stand before a Holy God and say honestly that I was deserving of.

[cksalmon]

Life:

whenever I see a sentence like "he needs us to allow this to happen through our obedience" I wonder. Once you make God's Grace on any level contingent on our obedience, then the question must be asked what hope can I ever put in the promises of God if all it takes is stubborn and sinful man to screw it up.

Huh? I thought you were a Latter-day Saint, Paul. I second your question.

Best.

CKS

[LifeOnaPlate]

Life:

whenever I see a sentence like "he needs us to allow this to happen through our obedience" I wonder. Once you make God's Grace on any level contingent on our obedience, then the question must be asked what hope can I ever put in the promises of God if all it takes is stubborn and sinful man to screw it up.

I would never say obedience is wrong, we are repeatedly commanded to be obedient and blessings will ensue, but there is not a blessing in my life that I can stand before a Holy God and say honestly that I was deserving of.

I hope when I meet the Savior he can say "Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

At least over a few things.

He does need us to allow it to happen. It requires an acknowledgment on our part. He would gather us all, but still laments over those who "would not."

[jadams_4242]

Iâ??ve been thinking about an oft cited passage from my LDS days: D&C 130:20-21

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicatedâ??

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Frequently, it was paired up with D&C 82:10â??â??I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say.â?

In Priesthood and Sunday School lessons as well as Sacrament Meeting talks, D&C 130:20-21 would be presented as a recipe for success. A favorite example: If we obeyed the â??law of tithing,â? then blessings would be forthcoming. This assertion would be followed by anecdotes of members paying tithing and then receiving some sort of monetary reward (found money, a new job, etc.). To be sure, obedience to other â??lawsâ? and associated blessings were also used as examples (â??word of wisdom,â? â??law of chastityâ?), but it was tithing-related examples, for whatever reason, I heard the most.

Taken at face value, the passage tells us a quid-pro-quo exchange with God is attainable. And yet such a message is demonstrably false. To begin with, there was only one man who was obedient to the law. And Scripture makes clear that if one fails any point of the law, then in Godâ??s eyes one becomes accountable for all of it (James 2:10). If James is correct together with the D&C, then nothing short of perfect obedience would be required to â??obtain any blessingâ?â??leaving the D&C passage, and any LDS who claimed to have benefited thereby, in a highly improbable spot.

Consider Ecclesiastes 8:14â??â??There is a vanity that takes place on earth, that there are righteous people to whom it happens according to the deeds of the wicked, and there are wicked people to whom it happens according to the deeds of the righteous.â?

Sometimes the wicked do prosper and the righteous perish. Who would deny the validity of the Preacherâ??s observation? Yet how can an LDS member reconcile it with the logic of D&C 130?

And consider Genesis 36â??the whole chapter. Here we have the unrighteous, unbelieving Esau and all his descendents, being blessed in abundance with wives and children (the Bible makes clear that a wife and children are blessings from God). These blessings certainly werenâ??t predicated on any obedience. Esau didnâ??t love God. As a side noteâ??my pastor did a great sermon on this chapter, using it as an illustration of â??common graceâ? and distinguishing it from â??saving grace.â? (http://www.marshillchurch.org/audio/Gen_36_061205.mp3)

Anyway, curious how the internet LDS community interprets D&C 130:20-21.

What say ye?

--Erik

All the scripture citings in the world dont mean a thing to me when it comes to having knowledge of

receiving blessings. I do receive blessings each and every day, they are comesurate with rightgeosness.

Non of us are perfect, Does God deny blessings because we are not perfect? I think not. All i do know

is that when i pay an honest and fulll tith he lets me know that i have done what he has commanded.

When i do all that i can do, {Which is another discussion because i am L.D.S,} then he lets

me know thru many blessings that i have done well. When i do temple work he lets me know this is his

work. The blessings of {worthy} temple attendance. are magnifecent,and beyond discription. I am

so blessed for each and every work i do in his name and for the father. But No we do not receive "all"

his offered blessings just because we do something like charity,or beleive in him, or love our brethren,

or go the church each sunday e.t.c.....blessings are commesurate with our actions, hearts,and service.

All of it.

[Tanyan]

Hi Tanyan--

See here.

And here.

I do appreciate that you're now linking to specific articles by Dan. I think that's a step in the right direction.

I am curious, though, why you incessantly link to the website of an evangelical who believes Mormonism is satanic. Surely, there are better sources for your viewpoints.

Best.

CKS

CKS thankyou !. I was already familiar with Dan Corner's view of things LDS. Several weeks ago I sent him via U.S mail responses to his posted material in a Charitable Christlike manner [Which is reheated anti LDS material from other anti LDS cookbooks]. As of this date I have recieved nothing in regards to the material I sent him. However from my lights his material on OSAS is seen as true from LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice/Faith/Belief. So as not to re-invent the Doctrine I simply post his material which in essense agrees with the LDS position. His material is to be examined by those that are our critics [His and Ours] to see its truthfulness. Thanks for caring and your thoughtful post. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.