Any Blessing Is By Obedience

[LifeOnaPlate]

Anyone?

Anyone? .....

Buehler?

[Hammer]

We may receive blessings because of the obedience of others. I received the gospel because of my parents righteousness. If they, like some xmos, didn't live up to what they received via their parentage or opportunities, then their children will not receive this blessing unless they themselves find it and obey.

Now, we can live clean, pure, and obedient and still not receive all the blessings we think we ought to here-- but we are going to receive ALL blessings eventually and according to the expediency of receiving them.

We also can't tell what form the blessing is going to come in. Some who desire to be more righteous pray for humility and end up with hardships beyond comprehension. Some obey the law of something believing he understands completely what kind of blessing he is going to receive for that particular obedience and finds himself getting a totally different kind of blessing.

The only way we can use the scripture in D&C is in retrospect. We can look at our blessing and see which law we obeyed or someone near to us obeyed for us to receive that blessing.

[LifeOnaPlate]

All blessings come from God.

Christ's atonement was completed because of obedience to the will of God (not my will, but thine be done, He said).

Thus, all blessings are predicated on the obedience to the law.

Man, either way we slice it the LDS Church is good to go, doctrinally. Still waiting for Erik to respond to my last post, and now this one as well.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Anyone?

Anyone? .....

Buehler?

Well hopefully Erik wont make any comments to get him banned for 2 weeks. He is our last chance.

[Hammer]

Well hopefully Erik wont make any comments to get him banned for 2 weeks. He is our last chance.

Wow, too bad.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Well hopefully Erik wont make any comments to get him banned for 2 weeks. He is our last chance.

haha I was just thinking the same thing.

[cartoon bluejay]

Do you think all blessings from God are predicated on obedience?

Let me take a crack at this question - the answer is a big fat NO! Because we have language all mixed up and too many words mean too many different things. There are too many variables to be able to pin point where the blessings are. Maybe in this mortal life we can only call them consequences - there are always consequences. But we can't tell what the consequences are going to be every time we act or react. Maybe if I was the only person on earth God could give me a reward every time I push the green button. And to say God's hand is in everything is not to say God is going to hand out rewards every time someone pushes the green button. God's hand is in everything because God set everything into motion and now our acts are followed by consequences. Sometimes other forces (people, weather patterns, animals, stock exchange, etc.) contribute to the consequence. I think it's called natural consequences to an extent.

I assure you, when it's all said and done - the final judgement - no one is getting blessings for disobedience.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Simply put. Can one receive salvation by being disobediant?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Simply put. Can one receive salvation by being disobediant?

Or how about this one:

Does God arbitrarily damn anyone? Does He arbitrarily save anyone?

Mehopes Erik comes back soon to answer our questions.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Or how about this one:

Mehopes Erik comes back soon to answer our questions.

I hope so to. I also hopes he doesnt use a simple yes or no. I want to know what he thinks on the matter.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I hope so to. I also hopes he doesnt use a simple yes or no. I want to know what he thinks on the matter.

Yes. The simple "yes or no" expectation is a bit harsh, imo. I favor discussion and explanation.

[rameumptom]

D&C 93 tells us that Jesus progressed from perfection to perfection, grace to grace, receiving grace for grace, until he received a fullness; and we are to do the same.

While we are imperfect, when we repent and turn to Christ, the two of us together become able to receive the blessings. I do not believe such blessings are all or nothing, but are dependent upon our understanding of the commandment, our spiritual level, and our need. We are also taught that where "much is given, much is required." God blesses all his children, sending rain upon the wicked as well as the righteous. He does reserve additional blessings for those who strive to be more obedient.

I am not perfect, but I have seen blessings come from obeying tithing and Word of Wisdom, among other commandments. Any Christian should believe Malachi's promise for those who tithe - else why have the Bible?

The key to the scriptures is not to read one or two passages and make an entire religion upon it (or judge an entire religion upon it). We are to take all the writings and discern God's will according to his will as a whole, otherwise we end up with religions that believe Jesus was a communist, Jesus was always loving and kind and never said a harsh word, Jesus is only a spirit, Jesus is only "flesh and bone as ye see me have", we are saved by grace/faith, faith without works is dead, baptism is required for salvation, baptism and other ordinances are not required for salvation, etc.

Harold Bloom warned of what he called the "Know Nothing Baptists", because they tend to do just this: take a couple scriptures and judge everyone else on their interpretation of that singular reading.

Gary

Iâ??ve been thinking about an oft cited passage from my LDS days: D&C 130:20-21

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicatedâ??

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Frequently, it was paired up with D&C 82:10â??â??I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say.â?

In Priesthood and Sunday School lessons as well as Sacrament Meeting talks, D&C 130:20-21 would be presented as a recipe for success. A favorite example: If we obeyed the â??law of tithing,â? then blessings would be forthcoming. This assertion would be followed by anecdotes of members paying tithing and then receiving some sort of monetary reward (found money, a new job, etc.). To be sure, obedience to other â??lawsâ? and associated blessings were also used as examples (â??word of wisdom,â? â??law of chastityâ?), but it was tithing-related examples, for whatever reason, I heard the most.

Taken at face value, the passage tells us a quid-pro-quo exchange with God is attainable. And yet such a message is demonstrably false. To begin with, there was only one man who was obedient to the law. And Scripture makes clear that if one fails any point of the law, then in Godâ??s eyes one becomes accountable for all of it (James 2:10). If James is correct together with the D&C, then nothing short of perfect obedience would be required to â??obtain any blessingâ?â??leaving the D&C passage, and any LDS who claimed to have benefited thereby, in a highly improbable spot.

Consider Ecclesiastes 8:14â??â??There is a vanity that takes place on earth, that there are righteous people to whom it happens according to the deeds of the wicked, and there are wicked people to whom it happens according to the deeds of the righteous.â?

Sometimes the wicked do prosper and the righteous perish. Who would deny the validity of the Preacherâ??s observation? Yet how can an LDS member reconcile it with the logic of D&C 130?

And consider Genesis 36â??the whole chapter. Here we have the unrighteous, unbelieving Esau and all his descendents, being blessed in abundance with wives and children (the Bible makes clear that a wife and children are blessings from God). These blessings certainly werenâ??t predicated on any obedience. Esau didnâ??t love God. As a side noteâ??my pastor did a great sermon on this chapter, using it as an illustration of â??common graceâ? and distinguishing it from â??saving grace.â? (http://www.marshillchurch.org/audio/Gen_36_061205.mp3)

Anyway, curious how the internet LDS community interprets D&C 130:20-21.

What say ye?

--Erik

[grego]

Ok, I can skip "all that other stuff" for now.

I'm wondering about a few questions I'm curious to hear answers to:

QUOTE

And Scripture makes clear that if one fails any point of the law, then in Godâ??s eyes one becomes accountable for all of it (James 2:10). If James is correct together with the D&C, then nothing short of perfect obedience would be required to â??obtain any blessingâ?â??leaving the D&C passage, and any LDS who claimed to have benefited thereby, in a highly improbable spot.

Do you actually believe James means it like that? That if you think one bad thought, that you are guilty of mass murder, apostacy, and adultery?

Blessings do come to people, for reasons. Do you find any Bible verses that make that statement false? Do you find any in support of it?

Or are you saying that everything good is ONLY and *strictly limited to* because of the grace of God?

Do you consider the obedience of others, not just one person? When one fasts and prays for another, does that have an effect on someone other than himself? Are there any Biblical verses to support that?

Has anyone ever said "Monetary blessings of richness will surely be paid out quickly every time one pays tithing?"

Are blessings also based on/ related to one's faith in obeying and laying claim on a blessing, not just the obedience to a law/ commandment?

Do not the Bible AND the BoM contain Malachi 3? Is what you're talking about, not the second topic of that chapter? What about the first topic--are not blessings promised for those who obey? How do you connect the the two? Is there a reason they are put next to each other?

...is all fair against ...LDS... in war for the kingdom of God?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Erik seems to be taking a page from the book of Shafavoloff, in that he doesn't deem it necessary to actually respond to any questions.

[ErikJohnson]

Hey LifeOnaPlate--

A little patience, please. Some of us actually have jobs (see employment) and can't spend 24/7 on a message board . I also have a wife and cannot neglect her in favor of a message board.

With regard to your questions, yes they can all be answered directly, even though they're off topic. I'll indulge you anyhow. Here we go--

Are you or are you not attempting to prove the D&C selection you are quoting is false?

Yes, as a Christian, I would attempt to disprove anything that was theologically inconsistent with the Bible (see Jude's admonition to "contend for the faith" Jude 1:3).

Does God arbitrarily damn anyone? Does He arbitrarily save anyone?

No, God is not "arbitrary"

What is a precondition? I saw it in Erik's post.

(Mola Ram Suda Ram's question)

Please make use of Dictionary.com. I have no special definition for this word.

Can one receive salvation by being disobedient?

(Another Mola Ram Suda Ram question).

No. Salvation is dependant on neither obedience nor disobedience. Salvation is by Grace through Faith.

Hope this helps. Goodnight, LifeOnaPlate.

--Erik

[Zakuska]

Yep... robbing Peter to save Paul as I expected.

[grego]

Please make use of Dictionary.com. I have no special definition for this word.

Interesting, you had a special definition from another dictionary for "Christian" before...

-=-=-=

Yes, as a Christian, I would attempt to disprove anything that was theologically inconsistent with the Bible (see Jude's admonition to "contend for the faith" Jude 1:3).

Yeah, as LDS *CHRISTIAN* folks, that's what we sometimes do, too--as these boards show.

Like you, we do it according not to the Bible, but to our *interpretation* of it.

-=-=-=

It's ok, I'll be patient, I know life--and some answers--take a little more time.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hey LifeOnaPlate--

A little patience, please. Some of us actually have jobs (see employment) and can't spend 24/7 on a message board . I also have a wife and cannot neglect her in favor of a message board.

That doesn't explain why you spent your last few posts wasting your time on defending yourself rather than answering any question.

With regard to your questions, yes they can all be answered directly, even though they're off topic.

Note to self: Defining terms in a conversation is "off topic" to Erik Johnson.

I'll indulge you anyhow. Here we go--

Am I supposed to feel priveleged that you're making an effort at conversation?

Yes, as a Christian, I would attempt to disprove anything that was theologically inconsistent with the Bible (see Jude's admonition to "contend for the faith" Jude 1:3).

No, God is not "arbitrary"

This doesn't answer half of my questions. Not even close. I guess you're too busy to talk about it in depth?

(Mola Ram Suda Ram's question)

Please make use of Dictionary.com. I have no special definition for this word.

Man, you should be on Larry King [/shaf joke]

(Another Mola Ram Suda Ram question).

No. Salvation is dependant on neither obedience nor disobedience. Salvation is by Grace through Faith.

So it's not based on Christ submitting to the will of His Father, then? That's theologically inconsistent with the Bible (see Jesus' condemnation of "hypocrisy" Matthew 23:13).

Hope this helps. Goodnight, LifeOnaPlate.

It doesn't help at all, other than convincing me further a real dialogue is not what you want here. I conglomerated my questions into one handy post. You almost answered one of them.

[ErikJohnson]

No worries, LifeOnaPlate, we can keep going--

That doesn't explain why you spent your last few posts wasting your time on defending yourself rather than answering any question.

The charge of "innocent posturing" (especially grego's purported example) was offensive and I didn't think it was wise to ignore it. I strongly disagree with you that I was "wasting my time" in making a response.

Am I supposed to feel privileged that you're making an effort at conversation?

I respond to lots of people, LifeOnaPlate. I wouldnâ??t consider it a "privilege" per se.

This doesn't answer half of my questions. Not even close. I guess you're too busy to talk about it in depth?

I thought I had. But feel free to generate another list and tell me what I missed. I'll get to it this evening.

So it's not based on Christ submitting to the will of His Father, then? That's theologically inconsistent with the Bible (see Jesus' condemnation of "hypocrisy" Matthew 23:13).

Christ certainly did submitt to the will of the Father, LifeOnaPlate. But you seem to have forgotten the question I was responding to (even though you subsequently quoted it in one of your posts). Mola Ram Suda Ram asked, "Can one receive salvation by being disobedient?" My answer was no. Scripture makes clear we are saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ.

It doesn't help at all, other than convincing me further a real dialogue is not what you want here. I conglomerated my questions into one handy post. You almost answered one of them.

Well, I can count more than that, LifeOnaPlate. I suspect other readers can too. But again, please feel free to give me another list of questions and I'll get back to you this evening. My only suggestion is that as you compose your list, you try to stay on topic with the OP.

--Erik

[LifeOnaPlate]

The charge of "innocent posturing" (especially grego's purported example) was offensive and I didn't think it was wise to ignore it. I strongly disagree with you that I was "wasting my time" in making a response.

I respond to lots of people, LifeOnaPlate. I wouldnâ??t consider it a "privilege" per se.

At the expense of the weightier matters, though. And for a guy pressed for time. You seemed more concerned with defending yourself than defending "Biblical" Christianity as you define it.

I thought I had. But feel free to generate another list and tell me what I missed. I'll get to it this evening.

Actually, another list isn't neccessary, it's already compiled.

Christ certainly did submitt to the will of the Father, LifeOnaPlate. But you seem to have forgotten the question I was responding to (even though you subsequently quoted it in one of your posts). Mola Ram Suda Ram asked, "Can one receive salvation by being disobedient?" My answer was no. Scripture makes clear we are saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ.

I don't believe being saved by Grace through Faith is mutually exclusive from the need for obedience. You seem to propose, though the Bible suggests otherwise, that one cannot be "saved by Grace" by obedience to God's commandments. You do implicitly indicate works, obedience to something expected of us by God, are necessary, when you say we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH in Christ. Having faith in Christ requires a decision on our part, a mental effort, an action, or work, on our part.

Well, I can count more than that, LifeOnaPlate. I suspect other readers can too. But again, please feel free to give me another list of questions and I'll get back to you this evening. My only suggestion is that as you compose your list, you try to stay on topic with the OP.

The list is compiled, feel free to answer it as it already stands. You answered one question by saying you are in fact trying to prove the D&C scripture false.

As far as being "off topic," again, I must remind myself you apparently believe any in-depth analysis, including the defining of terms in a discussion to ensure everyone is on the same page, is "off topic." I heartily disagree.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

(Mola Ram Suda Ram's question)

Please make use of Dictionary.com. I have no special definition for this word.

(Another Mola Ram Suda Ram question).

No. Salvation is dependant on neither obedience nor disobedience. Salvation is by Grace through Faith.

Hope this helps. Goodnight, LifeOnaPlate.

--Erik

Hmm this is interesting. Erik first off thank you for taking the time to respond. I know how life can be.

Ok as for obediance to Gods law. Are his commands just suggestions? also how do you interpret

Matt 7:21-27

And I agree that salvation is ultimatly through grace on Christ, there is no other way.

Also if I am saved, according to what I see you type, is that I can do what ever I want because in the end I'm saved by this free gift of Christ and sin has no hold on any thing I do. Even if I kill somebody??

Please dont tell me that if I'm saved I wouldnt want to do that. THat isnt what I asked. THe question is once I have been saved If I kill somebody then am I saved??

Man, you should be on Larry King [/shaf joke]

Hahahahahahah!!!

[aaronshaf]

Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote:

"What then is the law of justification? It is simply this: 'All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations (D. & C. 132:7), in which men must abide to be saved and exalted, must be entered into and performed in righteousness so that the Holy Spirit can justify the candidate for salvation in what has been done. (1 Ne. 16:2; Jac. 2:13-14; Alma 41:15; D. & C. 98; 132:1, 62.) An act that is justified by the Spirit is one that is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, or in other words, ratified and approved by the Holy Ghost. This law of justification is the provision the Lord has placed in the gospel to assure that no unrighteous performance will be binding on earth and in heaven, and that no person will add to his position or glory in the hereafter by gaining an unearned blessing." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 408. Quoted without last sentence in Institute manual, Doctrines of the Gospel.)

But don't worry... he wasn't an apostle like Paul ;-) Nothing he wrote is binding.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote:

But don't worry... he wasn't an apostle like Paul ;-) Nothing he wrote is binding.

Dood you should be on Larry King. So nice of you to stop by and add nothing to the conversation Aaron.

[Doctor Steuss]

Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote:

But don't worry... he wasn't an apostle like Paul ;-) Nothing he wrote is binding.

He was correct. Fortunately, Christ earned some of the blessings we will receive. Or do you disagree?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote:

But don't worry... he wasn't an apostle like Paul ;-) Nothing he wrote is binding.

Actually, he was.

Agent Shafavoloff, welcome back to the board. I will refrain from adding any additional questions to the growing list of unanswered ones you continue to ignore. I will, however, provide you with a link to a list of unanswered questions, simply click here.

I realize, as you said, you "just don't take many of the questions seriously enough to take the time to write the answers all out," but hey, maybe you'll oblige us just this once?