Are Patriarchal Blessings Valid

[Son]

Well, all suspects are innocent until proven guilty. So whenever someone has reasons to believe their leader is involved in something immoral (even if they themselves have no proof), they should bring it to the attention of the Stake President/higher authority? I don't know the whole story of MJSNW's Patriarch, but it seems to me that his daughters/nieces were silent at the time of the abuse (understandably), and that the abuse could not be definitively proven after so much time has passed. Ever heard of Martha Beck accusing her father Hugh Nibley of sexually abusing her when she was a child? The whole story is murky. She says it happened, her family says it never took place (even though they can't disprove her claims; all they've done is try to undermine her credibility). What if the Patriarch denies any abuse ever took place? Who should be believed? Yes, sure, God will punish him eventually, but what are people supposed to do while he's still living and holding that office?

yes they are, the way I understood it he was proven to be what was accused.

If it is false accusation, then none applies, and why would his position be questioned?

[Nephi]

your kidding.

Did that really sound like a legitimate church position?

Sorry, Im a lil under the weather today. My sarcasm sensor has been failing all day today.

[roman]

Would you say that to a little girl who has been taught the importance of blessings and has a migraine due to the trauma she is dealing with in her life? I can tell you that the blessings do work even if they come through the sinning party.

How about the example you hear so often in church about the couple who fooled around up in the mountains and come down the canyon and happen upon a wreck. The male party is asked for a blessing and he then proceeds to give the blessing even knowing what he had done.

Do you not believe that the injured party would not be helped by God? And do you think the Priesthood is the reason for the blessings or the faith of the receiver?

I think you are the one limiting God and denying his power. Anyone who thinks that it has to go through a priesthood holder is limiting God. He blesses those who assist and those who need.

Also, if you think that we are the ones limiting then do you not believe in Blessings? What is the need for blessings if we can personally pray for our needs without getting a blessing.

You bring up an entire slew of questions. Some things to think about!

The person said -------"They had no choice in the matter" That means to me that they would not get an answer to prayer or get what they needed from God -------unless it came throught the blessing. To that I say rubish. In the New Covanant we have been given the ability, or right to, or the priviledge to boldly enter the prescence of God and ask for the help we need--------OURSELFS.

To think otherwise is limiting God

[Son]

Sorry, Im a lil under the weather today. My sarcasm sensor has been failing all day today.

Get some rest. If you don't have your health, you don't have anything. (as spoken by Christopher Guest).

[Nephi]

Get some rest. If you don't have your health, you don't have anything. (as spoken by Christopher Guest).

Just woke up from a three hour nap, and I also skipped fasting today.

[Son]

The person said -------"They had no choice in the matter" That means to me that they would not get an answer to prayer or get what they needed from God -------unless it came throught the blessing. To that I say rubish. In the New Covanant we have been given the ability, or right to, or the priviledge to boldly enter the prescence of God and ask for the help we need--------OURSELFS.

To think otherwise is limiting God

Isn't that the error of religion. Limiting God, and amplifying man's authority over man.

[William Schryver]

The mantle is greater than the man. If indeed this is a true story (and I have no real reason to doubt it, aside from its shocking nature) then it is a terrible tragedy for this man, and especially for those whom he abused.

Nevertheless, I do not doubt that the Lord would still have chosen to work through him to impart patriarchal blessings. As LOP suggested, I suspect that every blessing given by this unworthy patriarch would have incremented the level of his condemnation. However, he did receive the mantle, and I believe God honors that mantle under most circumstances. I remember a story told recently by President Packer. I believe it was during a satellite broadcast to priesthood leadership. He told about being asked by a mother to ordain a young man to the Aaronic priesthood many years ago when visiting a stake. Apparently the young man's father was inactive and unworthy. Elder Packer put off doing anything until after the conference was concluded. Then, with the stake presidency and the parents present, Elder Packer had the young man sit in a chair in the high council room. He then walked over to the father and told him it was his duty to ordain his son to the priesthood. The father protested that he was not worthy to do so, whereupon Elder Packer assured him that his ordination of the young man would be honored. The father, with shaky hands and voice, laid his hands on the boy's head and, with assistance from Elder Packer, ordained the young man to the Aaronic priesthood.

I am confident that the Lord is constantly placed in a position of having to work through imperfect people in order to advance His work on the earth. In fact, to a greater or lesser degree, all are unworthy to act in the name of God. It is only through His grace that we will ever be able to reenter His presence.

[Zoidberg]

yes they are, the way I understood it he was proven to be what was accused.

If it is false accusation, then none applies, and why would his position be questioned?

Let's wait for MJNSW to clarify (sorry I've been spelling your nick wrong, MJNSW. I need a mnemonic devide of some kind... I think I got the last three letters down North South West). I think the Patriarch was never legally prosecuted (otherwise there WOULD be a disciplinary council held and he probably would have been at least released, but probably exed), so he's not proven guilty, the way I understand. I think MJNSW just has reasons to trust his daughters'/nieces' testimonies more than his "worthy priesthood holder" act.

[Son]

The mantle is greater than the man. If indeed this is a true story (and I have no real reason to doubt it, aside from its shocking nature) then it is a terrible tragedy for this man, and especially for those whom he abused.

Nevertheless, I do not doubt that the Lord would still have chosen to work through him to impart patriarchal blessings. As LOP suggested, I suspect that every blessing given by this unworthy patriarch would have incremented the level of his condemnation. However, he did receive the mantle, and I believe God honors that mantle under most circumstances. I remember a story told recently by President Packer. I believe it was during a satellite broadcast to priesthood leadership. He told about being asked by a mother to ordain a young man to the Aaronic priesthood many years ago when visiting a stake. Apparently the young man's father was inactive and unworthy. Elder Packer put off doing anything until after the conference was concluded. Then, with the stake presidency and the parents present, Elder Packer had the young man sit in a chair in the high council room. He then walked over to the father and told him it was his duty to ordain his son to the priesthood. The father protested that he was not worthy to do so, whereupon Elder Packer assured him that his ordination of the young man would be honored. The father, with shaky hands and voice, laid his hands on the boy's head and, with assistance from Elder Packer, ordained the young man to the Aaronic priesthood.

I am confident that the Lord is constantly placed in a position of having to work through imperfect people in order to advance His work on the earth. In fact, to a greater or lesser degree, all are unworthy to act in the name of God. It is only through His grace that we will ever be able to reenter His presence.

Then as Nephi (the poster) stated, all Baptism regardless of the Baptizer are effective and valid.

The LDS religion seems to think that all Baptism's that are not done by an LDS authorized representative are invalid.

[Zoidberg]

Then as Nephi (the poster) stated, all Baptism regardless of the Baptizer are effective and valid.

The LDS religion seems to think that all Baptism's that are not done by an LDS authorized representative are invalid.

Yes, I see a big problem here for the Church. Once it's public knowledge that you don't have to be "worthy" to perform any ordinances/blessings, you can imagine what would happen. Or is there a certain minimum threshold of worthiness/lesser unworthiness (that includes being male) that one needs to meet?

[MJNSW]

Let's wait for MJNSW to clarify (sorry I've been spelling your nick wrong, MJNSW. I need a mnemonic devide of some kind... I think I got the last three letters down North South West). I think the Patriarch was never legally prosecuted (otherwise there WOULD be a disciplinary council held and he probably would have been at least released, but probably exed), so he's not proven guilty, the way I understand. I think MJNSW just has reasons to trust his daughters'/nieces' testimonies more than his "worthy priesthood holder" act.

You have it correct.... I cannot go into further detail in the situation. Just let it be known that the family all knows but it has never gone to court.

[Son]

You have it correct.... I cannot go into further detail in the situation. Just let it be known that the family all knows but it has never gone to court.

The family all knows what? He's innocent, or guilty?

[Zoidberg]

The family all knows what? He's innocent, or guilty?

He's formally innocent, but really guilty.

[MJNSW]

The family all knows what? He's innocent, or guilty?

They all know he is guilty.

He's formally innocent, but really guilty.

Yup...

edited to add: It all falls under the better to keep silent then persecute the predator mentality!

[Son]

They all know he is guilty.

Yup...

edited to add: It all falls under the better to keep silent then persecute the predator mentality!

Then for this family Membership has become what they worship. Truth and honor are hollow. Everything said stands as to the nature of eternal future.

The Priesthood polluted by man, due to man taking the authority of appointment away from our Heavenly Father.

If others in authority know of this and do not act, they too will be held accountable. May they enjoy their highseats while they last..

[cinepro]

Talking with our bishop just this week, I believe that Bishop's can discern when someone is out of wack. I would really wonder about this guy's leadership. Maybe they are off the path as well.

CFR on a bishop (or any other Church leader) being able to "discern when someone is out of wack" beyond what normal, intelligent people can "discern". I thought Mark Hoffman put this myth to rest 20 years ago, (if John Bennet didn't kill this idea 160 years ago). Sad to say, but church leaders, be they Bishops or Apostles, are just as gullible as anyone else.

The Holy Ghost does many wonderful things, but it certainly doesn't help anyone reliably "discern" truth from error (or righteousness from sin) in other people.

[Zoidberg]

CFR on a bishop (or any other Church leader) being able to "discern when someone is out of wack" beyond what normal, intelligent people can "discern". I thought Mark Hoffman put this myth to rest 20 years ago, (if John Bennet didn't kill this idea 160 years ago). Sad to say, but church leaders, be they Bishops or Apostles, are just as gullible as anyone else.

The Holy Ghost does many wonderful things, but it certainly doesn't help anyone reliably "discern" truth from error (or righteousness from sin) in other people.

Agreed. If one wants to offer various examples of bishops discerning something they couldn't have otherwise known in any way, one needs to look up the Von Restorff effect.

[roman]

Isn't that the error of religion. Limiting God, and amplifying man's authority over man.

Yes its one of them

[MJNSW]

CFR on a bishop (or any other Church leader) being able to "discern when someone is out of wack" beyond what normal, intelligent people can "discern". I thought Mark Hoffman put this myth to rest 20 years ago, (if John Bennet didn't kill this idea 160 years ago). Sad to say, but church leaders, be they Bishops or Apostles, are just as gullible as anyone else.

The Holy Ghost does many wonderful things, but it certainly doesn't help anyone reliably "discern" truth from error (or righteousness from sin) in other people.

I think it would be good to point out that the gift of discernment is a GIFT given to some... not all. So you may have a million leaders and of that million, only a handful may have that gift. So in other words, they have to rely on other means to help them discern.

[William Schryver]

Then as Nephi (the poster) stated, all Baptism regardless of the Baptizer are effective and valid.

The LDS religion seems to think that all Baptism's that are not done by an LDS authorized representative are invalid.

You've completely misunderstood my statement.

Nothing I wrote would suggest that anyone could perform a valid baptism (or any other ordinance) unless that individual had received the authority to do so from one who possessed that authority. In the example I cited, the father had previously received the keys necessary to do what he did. He simply had not been using those keys. Still, his priesthood line of authority extended back to those who rightfully held the keys, therefore his ordination of his son is deemed valid. No one can just assume this authority. As it is written:

Hebrews 5

4 ... no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

It's as simple as that.

[roman]

I think it would be good to point out that the gift of discernment is a GIFT given to some... not all. So you may have a million leaders and of that million, only a handful may have that gift. So in other words, they have to rely on other means to help them discern.

Yes ------you got it. Good post

[Maidservant]

This is severely anecdotal, but my mother would say to me that she knew what it felt like to one: have the priesthood in the home with a good man; two: have the priesthod in the home with an 'unworthy' man; and three: to have the priesthood missing in the home with a good man. (She preferred the feeling of the priesthood being in the home.) She seem to have experienced the priesthood as a tangible power or whatever you want to call it separate than the man.

My dad was one for criticizing leaders of the (local) church. He disdained them. However, he himself -- since he was such a good man, right?, and could see where things were going wrong -- would never accept callings of leadership. So what's a church to do when all the 'bad' people would serve and the 'good' won't?

I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks. I grew up in a poor working class neighborhood. Could elaborate on this for some time, but let's truncate and let's just say every father there was abusing (physically, not sexually) his kids. I know that there was one man who was sexually abusing his girls who was in the bishopbric. I think he is still a member. Anyway, I of course had lots of questions to God about this, and for me at least I was answered by the fact that -- He was able to use them (not necessarily the sexual abuse guy, but all the others in the abuse mentality). They had very wrong ideas how to treat their children, but they did listen to God as a bishop and served the people the best they could (not perfectly). God looking down on our neighborhood must have been in despair as to who was truly worthy that he could choose to be his church leaders -- his only other choice would have been to leave our neighborhood without a church. In which case, I would have been without the good church experiences I had growing up, and without ordinances.

My husband was unable to function as a husband and father, in those roles, on a day to day basis, but he did hold, worthily enough, the Melchizedek priesthood. When the two of us had blessings right before he died, in my blessing I was told that my hubby had been allowed (?) to remain in the home for a few years more so that there would be priesthood in my home. Thinking about it that way, I was grateful.

Simply because he holds a high position in the church and they don't feel or are too scared to bring it out into the public light. It is a sticky situation.

I can hardly speak, as I know that my parents did not do what they might have done to stop something like this in a situation in our family. However, 'high position' -- do NOT let that be what stops you! The man is sexually abusing other children currently, if he can get his hands on them. Maybe it would be best if anyone stops him. There is/ was a man in our town now, who did a lot of community service and church service and even served in the armed forces as a young man. Bestest friends with my father in law/ former stake prez. Well, it finally came to light that he had sexually abused his young family relatives also. Where is he now? Still serving in the church? No. He's in prison. A little old man in prison. Thank goodness.

Alright, let me ask you this: if someone wholeheartedly believed that I, Zoidberg, could give patriarchal blessings (I'm a girl, BTW) and came to me and asked me to give them such a blessing and I did, that blessing would be valid? God would give me the temporary ability to discern what tribe to assign that person to and what to say about their life and purpose as a child of God?

There are several elements to priesthood. Worthiness is only one of them. We are not talking doctrine on this board -- we are just hashing out a variety of scenarios -- as you've seen, one size does NOT fit all.

A very important element to priesthood is authority. A very, very worthy person still needs AUTHORITY to have and exercise the priesthood -- hence the view that an unordained person would not be able to perform valid ordinances and such. An unworthy person with the priesthood, at least as far as governmental structure, may still have authority.

By the way, there is a difference between 'unworthy' and 'criminal'. All of us are unworthy and are going to screw up, especially when a man may be growing in what it means to be a steward (bishop or such) over a flock. But a 'criminal' -- raping young girls -- is above and beyond 'unworthy'. It's criminal. It's two different concepts as far as I'm concerned.

Should a criminal, then, be giving patriarchal blessings? Of course not. If it happens, and that was your patriarchal blessing, what should you do? I would talk it over with your bishop (assuming he is not a criminal) and perhaps you can realize that your patriarchal blessing was inspired, or perhaps the bishop will be led to allow you another blessing. I don't know that there is a paragraph in the handbook about what to do (maybe there is?).

I disagree that only a handful of leaders will have a gift of discernment. The bishop's mantle has discernment as one of its main components. Yes, it is a gift. But it is a gift given THEN, when he is a bishop. Perfect discernment? Of course not. I've been on the receiving end of both an amazing lack of discernment from a bishop, and an amazing expression of discernment. But in general, that would be the bishop's gift and calling for the time that he holds that position.

[Bernard Gui]

Someone in the family needs to step up to the plate...

first to the bishop, then to the legal authorities.

This man, if the story is true, and his victims need

to bring this to some kind of closure. It is unfair to

judge his priesthood leaders if no one has informed them

of what went on.

Bernard

[William Schryver]

Maidservant:

Should a criminal, then, be giving patriarchal blessings? Of course not. If it happens, and that was your patriarchal blessing, what should you do? I would talk it over with your bishop (assuming he is not a criminal) and perhaps you can realize that your patriarchal blessing was inspired, or perhaps the bishop will be led to allow you another blessing. I don't know that there is a paragraph in the handbook about what to do (maybe there is?).

This is a good point.

Generally speaking, one is only permitted to receive a single patriarchal blessing. But there have been exceptions to this general rule. And it could be that, in a case like this, the First Presidency would authorize a new patriarchal blessing for those who desired it after learning of the unworthiness of the patriarch in question.

Still, I maintain that the mantle is greater than the man and that the Lord, more likely than not, honored his priesthood and calling in behalf of the recipients of the blessings -- despite the fact that the man was not living worthy of his priesthood and calling.

[Maidservant]

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