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Are Patriarchal Blessings Valid


Zoidberg

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So MJNSW brought up this Stake Patriarch in another thread who molested and raped his own nieces and who (shockingly) is still a Stake Patriarch. I'm assuming he was still giving patriarchal blessings at the time he was sexually abusing them. Looks like there was no disciplinary council there, even. Hopefully, MJSNW can shed some light on this situation. Were the people who received patriarchal blessings from him at the time of abuse ever allowed to reapply for a blessing recommend and go get a new one from someone else?

When a priesthood holder molests children, he loses his priesthood, right? I can see how ordinances like baptism would probably still be valid even if performed by an unworthy priesthood holder. God could overlook that as long as the person being baptized was innocent, IMHO. Besides, it's a strictly reglamented procedure. But the patriarch has to actually say individual things and discern the person's tribe. So if he doesn't have his priesthood anymore, does he just make stuff up? Or do you think God gives him inspiration for the sake of the person receiving the blessing? I guess it's reasonable to separate priesthood holders from priesthood ordinances, but a patriarchal blessing is NOT an ordinance and it's not mandatory for exaltation. So what do you think happens in this case? And can you receive another blessing from someone else if your Patriarch's transgressions at the time he blessed you become known?

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So MJSNW brought up this Stake Patriarch in another thread who molested and raped his own nieces and who (shockingly) is still a Stake Patriarch. I'm assuming he was still giving patriarchal blessings at the time he was sexually abusing them. Looks like there was no disciplinary council there, even. Hopefully, MJSNW can shed some light on this situation. Were the people who received patriarchal blessings from him at the time of abuse ever allowed to reapply for a blessing recommend and go get a new one from someone else?

When a priesthood holder molests children, he loses his priesthood, right? I can see how ordinances like baptism would probably still be valid even if performed by an unworthy priesthood holder. God could overlook that as long as the person being baptized was innocent, IMHO. Besides, it's a strictly reglamented procedure. But the patriarch has to actually say individual things and discern the person's tribe. So if he doesn't have his priesthood anymore, does he just make stuff up? Or do you think God gives him inspiration for the sake of the person receiving the blessing? I guess it's reasonable to separate priesthood holders from priesthood ordinances, but a patriarchal blessing is NOT an ordinance and it's not mandatory for exaltation. So what do you think happens in this case? And can you receive another blessing from someone else if your Patriarch's transgressions at the time he blessed you become known?

The ordinance can still be valid, the blessing can still be valid, but an unworthy priesthood holder would only be further convicting himself.

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The ordinance can still be valid, the blessing can still be valid, but an unworthy priesthood holder would only be further convicting himself.

So you think God temporarily inspires the Patriarch to say all the things he says? What about just priesthood blessings? If the ordinances/blessings can be performed by unworthy individuals whose priesthood is taken away, what's the point of ordaining someone in a priesthood office at all?

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The ordinance can still be valid, the blessing can still be valid, but an unworthy priesthood holder would only be further convicting himself.

I believe this whole heartedly!

I do not think God will punish the people receiving the blessing because of the person giving the blessing - but that he will be punished for his own sins.

I have been given blessings from someone that I knew was sinning seriously... but I needed the blessings terribly and had no choice. I do believe that God knew of my needs and cared for me tremendously despite the choices of the individual who gave me the blessings. I cannot deny Gods power or the power of Faith.... nor do I wish to. As to the things I have witnessed I have noticed that he works on our personal faith and not on those who give the blessings.

I think that this observation makes me wonder if that is the case, then it is most likely possible that anyone can give a blessing and it be effective. Whether the person is a priesthood holder or not. I think people in or out of the church have the power to call on God to heal or protect or any of the claimed priesthood powers and that the faith of those receiving the blessings and those present and their faith is what determines the outcome (and most important GOD! After all it is his power!)

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So MJSNW brought up this Stake Patriarch in another thread who molested and raped his own nieces and who (shockingly) is still a Stake Patriarch. I'm assuming he was still giving patriarchal blessings at the time he was sexually abusing them. Looks like there was no disciplinary council there, even. Hopefully, MJSNW can shed some light on this situation. Were the people who received patriarchal blessings from him at the time of abuse ever allowed to reapply for a blessing recommend and go get a new one from someone else?

When a priesthood holder molests children, he loses his priesthood, right? I can see how ordinances like baptism would probably still be valid even if performed by an unworthy priesthood holder. God could overlook that as long as the person being baptized was innocent, IMHO. Besides, it's a strictly reglamented procedure. But the patriarch has to actually say individual things and discern the person's tribe. So if he doesn't have his priesthood anymore, does he just make stuff up? Or do you think God gives him inspiration for the sake of the person receiving the blessing? I guess it's reasonable to separate priesthood holders from priesthood ordinances, but a patriarchal blessing is NOT an ordinance and it's not mandatory for exaltation. So what do you think happens in this case? And can you receive another blessing from someone else if your Patriarch's transgressions at the time he blessed you become known?

It would seem that through such the Spirit could not function. However, Only God knows. He may validate giving a righteous person a blessing through a corrupt vessel for the sake of the righteous.

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So MJSNW brought up this Stake Patriarch in another thread who molested and raped his own nieces and who (shockingly) is still a Stake Patriarch. I'm assuming he was still giving patriarchal blessings at the time he was sexually abusing them. Looks like there was no disciplinary council there, even. Hopefully, MJSNW can shed some light on this situation. Were the people who received patriarchal blessings from him at the time of abuse ever allowed to reapply for a blessing recommend and go get a new one from someone else?

When a priesthood holder molests children, he loses his priesthood, right? I can see how ordinances like baptism would probably still be valid even if performed by an unworthy priesthood holder. God could overlook that as long as the person being baptized was innocent, IMHO. Besides, it's a strictly reglamented procedure. But the patriarch has to actually say individual things and discern the person's tribe. So if he doesn't have his priesthood anymore, does he just make stuff up? Or do you think God gives him inspiration for the sake of the person receiving the blessing? I guess it's reasonable to separate priesthood holders from priesthood ordinances, but a patriarchal blessing is NOT an ordinance and it's not mandatory for exaltation. So what do you think happens in this case? And can you receive another blessing from someone else if your Patriarch's transgressions at the time he blessed you become known?

To shed some light... His nieces and daughters are grown and moved on with their lives trying to pick up the pieces of their life and make the best of it regardless of their ugly pasts. Some having a harder time than others moving forward.

Not very many people know of his actions but none are willing to come forward and bring it to light. Simply because he holds a high position in the church and they don't feel or are too scared to bring it out into the public light. It is a sticky situation.

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To shed some light... His nieces and daughters are grown and moved on with their lives trying to pick up the pieces of their life and make the best of it regardless of their ugly pasts. Some having a harder time than others moving forward.

Not very many people know of his actions but none are willing to come forward and bring it to light. Simply because he holds a high position in the church and they don't feel or are too scared to bring it out into the public light. It is a sticky situation.

Talking with our bishop just this week, I believe that Bishop's can discern when someone is out of wack. I would really wonder about this guy's leadership. Maybe they are off the path as well. :P

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I have been given blessings from someone that I knew was sinning seriously... but I needed the blessings terribly and had no choice. I do believe that God knew of my needs and cared for me tremendously despite the choices of the individual who gave me the blessings. I cannot deny Gods power or the power of Faith.... nor do I wish to.

roman says

First of all if that person was sinning seriously---then God wasn't using them at all. Second, do you really believe that God must us another to get what you need---as in the sinners blessing. And third------if you believe the above 2 then you are indeed limiting God and dening his power

Sorry I will get this reply thing down yet

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I believe this whole heartedly!

I do not think God will punish the people receiving the blessing because of the person giving the blessing - but that he will be punished for his own sins.

I have been given blessings from someone that I knew was sinning seriously... but I needed the blessings terribly and had no choice. I do believe that God knew of my needs and cared for me tremendously despite the choices of the individual who gave me the blessings. I cannot deny Gods power or the power of Faith.... nor do I wish to. As to the things I have witnessed I have noticed that he works on our personal faith and not on those who give the blessings.

I think that this observation makes me wonder if that is the case, then it is most likely possible that anyone can give a blessing and it be effective. Whether the person is a priesthood holder or not. I think people in or out of the church have the power to call on God to heal or protect or any of the claimed priesthood powers and that the faith of those receiving the blessings and those present and their faith is what determines the outcome (and most important GOD! After all it is his power!)

I also believe this. Didn't Jesus once say that if God so wanted, He could make children out of rocks for Abraham? So we all could perform priesthood ordinances/blessings. And the priesthood is either only present at the time these ordinances/blessings are performed, or everybody has it equally, whether or not they were formally ordained (including women :P).

Talking with our bishop just this week, I believe that Bishop's can discern when someone is out of wack. I would really wonder about this guy's leadership. Maybe they are off the path as well. <_<

What about their leadership? and the leadership's leadership? It can all be traced back to the FP and, ultimately, God.

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What about their leadership? and the leadership's leadership? It can all be traced back to the FP and, ultimately, God.

Yes. God is where the buck stops, and since the 'blessings' are actually coming from HIM, not the patriarch, then a righteous person should be able to count on what is said.

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Yes. God is where the buck stops, and since the 'blessings' are actually coming from HIM, not the patriarch, then a righteous person should be able to count on what is said.

But then why do we even need the patriarch or any of the leadership above him? (you can't answer "because God said so" :P )

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But then why do we even need the patriarch or any of the leadership above him? (you can't answer "because God said so" :P )

Well it sounds like we shouldn't even have man on earth. Or is there a bigger picture and purpose of having us here doing service for one another than just doing what God could do without us?

Can God give us wisdom, intelligence, experience without us doing a thing?

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The ordinance can still be valid, the blessing can still be valid, but an unworthy priesthood holder would only be further convicting himself.

It would be better that this man was never born, than to hurt the least of these.

His priesthood was false, his power evil, and nothing he did from the time of his fall was edified.

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Well it sounds like we shouldn't even have man on earth. Or is there a bigger picture and purpose of having us here doing service for one another than just doing what God could do without us?

Can God give us wisdom, intelligence, experience without us doing a thing?

Alright, let me ask you this: if someone wholeheartedly believed that I, Zoidberg, could give patriarchal blessings (I'm a girl, BTW) and came to me and asked me to give them such a blessing and I did, that blessing would be valid? God would give me the temporary ability to discern what tribe to assign that person to and what to say about their life and purpose as a child of God?

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roman says

First of all if that person was sinning seriously---then God wasn't using them at all. Second, do you really believe that God must us another to get what you need---as in the sinners blessing. And third------if you believe the above 2 then you are indeed limiting God and dening his power

Would you say that to a little girl who has been taught the importance of blessings and has a migraine due to the trauma she is dealing with in her life? I can tell you that the blessings do work even if they come through the sinning party.

How about the example you hear so often in church about the couple who fooled around up in the mountains and come down the canyon and happen upon a wreck. The male party is asked for a blessing and he then proceeds to give the blessing even knowing what he had done.

Do you not believe that the injured party would not be helped by God? And do you think the Priesthood is the reason for the blessings or the faith of the receiver?

I think you are the one limiting God and denying his power. Anyone who thinks that it has to go through a priesthood holder is limiting God. He blesses those who assist and those who need.

Also, if you think that we are the ones limiting then do you not believe in Blessings? What is the need for blessings if we can personally pray for our needs without getting a blessing.

You bring up an entire slew of questions. Some things to think about!

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I believe this whole heartedly!

I do not think God will punish the people receiving the blessing because of the person giving the blessing - but that he will be punished for his own sins.

I have been given blessings from someone that I knew was sinning seriously... but I needed the blessings terribly and had no choice. I do believe that God knew of my needs and cared for me tremendously despite the choices of the individual who gave me the blessings. I cannot deny Gods power or the power of Faith.... nor do I wish to. As to the things I have witnessed I have noticed that he works on our personal faith and not on those who give the blessings.

I think that this observation makes me wonder if that is the case, then it is most likely possible that anyone can give a blessing and it be effective. Whether the person is a priesthood holder or not. I think people in or out of the church have the power to call on God to heal or protect or any of the claimed priesthood powers and that the faith of those receiving the blessings and those present and their faith is what determines the outcome (and most important GOD! After all it is his power!)

Someone sinning terribly has no right to God's priesthood.

Maybe man's, but not God's

I agree with the second paragraph, God is no respector of persons or memberships, if one lives according to His precepts, then He is bound to keep His promise, otherwise HE would cease to be God.

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I do not think God will punish the people receiving the blessing because of the person giving the blessing - but that he will be punished for his own sins.

Hold on here. If this is valid, then there is no reason for the church to go back and do everyone's baptisms. If they were baptized by someone whom they thought was valid to baptize them (say a Catholic priest) then even if that person was not valid, we would have no reason to go do their work for them. The reason we do their work for them again is because the person whom did their baptism was not valid (just as in this case), and so the baptism is null and void.

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It would be better that this man was never born, than to hurt the least of these.

His priesthood was false, his power evil, and nothing he did from the time of his fall was edified.

So the people in his stake are depriving themselves of the blessings by not bringing his evil actions to light and doing everything they can to have him disciplined? And if his leadership refuses to discipline him, they should go, say, to the FP, disobeying their immediate leadership?

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So the people in his stake are depriving themselves of the blessings by not bringing his evil actions to light and doing everything they can to have him disciplined? And if his leadership refuses to discipline him, they should go, say, to the FP, disobeying their immediate leadership?

If the man does not have the honor left in him to step down, he should be exed.

Others have been exed for far less.

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How about the example you hear so often in church about the couple who fooled around up in the mountains and come down the canyon and happen upon a wreck. The male party is asked for a blessing and he then proceeds to give the blessing even knowing what he had done.

I've heard the same story, except it ended differently. The male party falls on his knees and cries in despair because he knows his priesthood has been taken from him and he cannot give a blessing to the injured person. So we already know that there are varying opinions in the Church on that matter. Would be interesting to see how GBH would answer that question.

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Hold on here. If this is valid, then there is no reason for the church to go back and do everyone's baptisms. If they were baptized by someone whom they thought was valid to baptize them (say a Catholic priest) then even if that person was not valid, we would have no reason to go do their work for them. The reason we do their work for them again is because the person whom did their baptism was not valid (just as in this case), and so the baptism is null and void.

It's different cause he was not valid in the LDS church, not being valid in another church means double invalidation, and you can really only have one level of invalidation forgiven at a time. :P

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If the man does not have the honor left in him to step down, he should be exed.

Others have been exed for far less.

Well, all suspects are innocent until proven guilty. So whenever someone has reasons to believe their leader is involved in something immoral (even if they themselves have no proof), they should bring it to the attention of the Stake President/higher authority? I don't know the whole story of MJNSW's Patriarch, but it seems to me that his daughters/nieces were silent at the time of the abuse (understandably), and that the abuse could not be definitively proven after so much time has passed. Ever heard of Martha Beck accusing her father Hugh Nibley of sexually abusing her when she was a child? The whole story is murky. She says it happened, her family says it never took place (even though they can't disprove her claims; all they've done is try to undermine her credibility). What if the Patriarch denies any abuse ever took place? Who should be believed? Yes, sure, God will punish him eventually, but what are people supposed to do while he's still living and holding that office?

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