LifeOnaPlate Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 Suppose I have a box of cookies, and want to share one with my pal Expositor, here. I take a cookie, place it in a little bag with a note: "For Expositor." I leave it on your porch. How dare I force you to eat that cookie!!!Wait... I didn't.Placing the cookie on your porch didn't take a lot of time. Neither would your proxy baptism.
AddamS Posted August 30, 2007 Author Posted August 30, 2007 Suppose I have a box of cookies, and want to share one with my pal Expositor, here. I take a cookie, place it in a little bag with a note: "For Expositor." I leave it on your porch. How dare I force you to eat that cookie!!!Wait... I didn't.Placing the cookie on your porch didn't take a lot of time. Neither would your proxy baptism.I imagined a much more verbose ceremony that required a petition and discussion. I don't know if specifics can be discussed here.Damn, I really want a cookie now!
Zakuska Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 That is precisely what I am asking. If they do not, why do the Baptism of the dead in the first place?And as the great DCP explained... who are you to take away their right tor offer a prayer in your behalf?
LifeOnaPlate Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 In short: If proxy baptism is a false principle, who cares?If proxy baptism is a true principle we should care. God will not compell anyone to accept a proxy baptism.
Daniel Peterson Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 It just seems like a waste of time.Most television shows, sporting events, and novels are a waste of time.I'm not worried about preventing others from watching, attending, or reading such things, though. If that's what they want to do, if they believe that such things aren't a waste of time, let them do what they want.
AddamS Posted August 30, 2007 Author Posted August 30, 2007 And as the great DCP explained... who are you to take away their right tor offer a prayer in your behalf?Who are they to take this highly personal decision into their own hands?
selek Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 Who are they to take this highly personal decision into their own hands?As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, they are not.Nothing they do on your behalf, whether from deliberate malice or Christlike charity is binding upon you unless you choose to accept it.And nothing you can do will interfere with the freedom of religion and worship of those who come after you, so suck it up.You can't stop them if they choose to be baptized or pray on your behalf.
Redeemed Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 On one visit to my wife's family in St. George a few years ago I got into a conversation with her Uncle about geneology. At the time I just thought it was an interesting discussion but thought it was odd that he was writing all of the information down. I assumed it was for personal family record (and it may have been). If he did take the information to submit it to the church, I understand he meant no harm by it. But would rather not it happen just the same.I have since found that sometimes this information is submitted for baptism of the dead. Is there any way to stop this from happening? I know a lot of Jewish people made an issue about it at one point in time so I assume there has to be some sort of process.No offense, I just would rather make my own choices about my soul when I bite the dust (assuming the church is still around by then). I'm also concerend about those that have passed before now that were mentioned.The b f d, is a man made work, it dose not have any value for your sole. the bible is clear that babtism is not required, and if someone does put your name through a dead work, so what.redeemed
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 Who are they to take this highly personal decision into their own hands?Wow i didnt take long for this horse to become dead Dont really know how much more can be said. There are conflicting views and niether one can overcome the other. What to do? Your religion says I dont want to be baptized I dont believe it. The other religion says all must be baptized and performs proxy.
MorningStar Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 How can I get people to stop praying for me to leave the church?Oh, I can't. And I don't really care because I don't believe their prayers will have any effect on me since it's not God's will for me to leave the church.What if someone wants to practice voodoo on me? What if someone has a voodoo doll of me and is sticking me with pins? How can I get them to stop?I can't. And I don't care because I don't believe in voodoo. If you don't believe the church's teachings are valid, why would you even care about someone being baptized for you by proxy? It's not a matter of forcing you to do anything anyway. It's a choice. No one is making the decision for you. It's making an offer to you to be baptized.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 The b f d, is a man made work, it dose not have any value for your sole. the bible is clear that babtism is not required, and if someone does put your name through a dead work, so what.redeemedWhat if he doesnt believe the bible or any other book? then what?I also disagree that baptism isnt required. Im sure you have your scriputes and I have mine.
selek Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 The b f d, is a man made work, it dose not have any value for your sole. the bible is clear that babtism is not required, and if someone does put your name through a dead work, so what.redeemedYou forgot the "If" in your first sentence, redeemed.You also forgot the "According to my narrow sectarian interpretation" disclaimer on the second.
MorningStar Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 It's like that Baptist guy who is telling people to pray for the death of those who got him in trouble with the IRS. Who cares? Like God is going to grant him that wish? Now he's probably in deep doo doo for asking such a thing.
LifeOnaPlate Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 The b f d, is a man made work, it dose not have any value for your sole. the bible is clear that babtism is not required, and if someone does put your name through a dead work, so what.redeemedI completely disagree on all counts, including spelling. No need to cite any scriptures or authority, though, apparently.
AddamS Posted August 30, 2007 Author Posted August 30, 2007 As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, they are not.Nothing they do on your behalf, whether from deliberate malice or Christlike charity is binding upon you unless you choose to accept it.And nothing you can do will interfere with the freedom of religion and worship of those who come after you, so suck it up.You can't stop them if they choose to be baptized or pray on your behalf.Easy there tiger, I'm pragmatic enough to know that I can't stop someone from praying. I just wanted to kno w if there was a way to block it from being practiced as an official function of the church.You can go worship a twinkie wrapper for all I care. I just have a healthy fear of those that believe their path is the only way with such determination that they do not consider the wishes of others important.
MorningStar Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 Expositor, it sounds like you're a little concerned that the church might actually be true.
mocnarf Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 On one visit to my wife's family in St. George a few years ago I got into a conversation with her Uncle about geneology. At the time I just thought it was an interesting discussion but thought it was odd that he was writing all of the information down. I assumed it was for personal family record (and it may have been). If he did take the information to submit it to the church, I understand he meant no harm by it. But would rather not it happen just the same.I have since found that sometimes this information is submitted for baptism of the dead. Is there any way to stop this from happening? I know a lot of Jewish people made an issue about it at one point in time so I assume there has to be some sort of process.No offense, I just would rather make my own choices about my soul when I bite the dust (assuming the church is still around by then). I'm also concerend about those that have passed before now that were mentioned.There is only one possible way to accomplish this objective. If you were to create a geneological web site listing your geneology and list in GEDCOM format and on your record have it indicate that all LDS work has been done (even though it hasn't) this might get the "do gooders" to pass you by because they think the work has already been done. But many times the work gets done multiple times, so who knows if this will accomplish what you want.
MorningStar Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 This magician said he wanted to turn me into a gorilla while I'm asleep. Could someone please stop him? I don't want to be a gorilla.
Zakuska Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 Who are they to take this highly personal decision into their own hands?All except for the fact that the decision isn't taken out of your hands.It's not like they are exhuming your body and desicrating your grave to get you into the font. However by you telling them they can't offer a simple prayer and religious action in your behalf, You are stepping on their toes and constitutional rights.
LifeOnaPlate Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 Easy there tiger, I'm pragmatic enough to know that I can't stop someone from praying. I just wanted to kno w if there was a way to block if from being practiced as an official function of the church.Get your relatives to commit by solomn covenant never to proxy baptise you, then get every church member to do the same. In other words: probably not. End of question.You can go worship a twinkie wrapper for all I care. I just have a healthy fear of those that believe their path is the only way with such determination that they do not consider the wishes of others important.No offense, but your wishes seem to be kind of lame. Some people wish world hunger would end, or that they will find their true love, or that they will live a nice happy and long life. You apparently find it important to stop a religious body of people- who you believe are incorrect, and practicing a bunch of hocus pocus- from trying to help you, even if, to your beliefs, it won't do anything anyway. After all that has been said on this thread, I'm going to have to say you might have to just get over it.P.S. A simply ingenious idea, Francom.
AddamS Posted August 30, 2007 Author Posted August 30, 2007 Expositor, it sounds like you're a little concerned that the church might actually be true. I'm not concerned about the church being true. I kind of hope it is! If it is I won't have to spend eternity with people I don't generally care for on either side of the spectrum!I'm more concerned with policy that tells people that their actions on earth can affect others after they have passed away. Seems (to me) like it is unhealthy to believe that a person has the "power" to reach into eternity and affect the "afterlife".
MorningStar Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 This magician said he wanted to turn me into a gorilla while I'm asleep. Could someone please stop him? I don't want to be a gorilla.Aw, crap! He got me! What was my point again? Uhhhhhh ...
AddamS Posted August 30, 2007 Author Posted August 30, 2007 There is only one possible way to accomplish this objective. If you were to create a geneological web site listing your geneology and list in GEDCOM format and on your record have it indicate that all LDS work has been done (even though it hasn't) this might get the "do gooders" to pass you by because they think the work has already been done. But many times the work gets done multiple times, so who knows if this will accomplish what you want.Well, at least its an answer. Thank you.
MorningStar Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 I'm not concerned about the church being true. I kind of hope it is! If it is I won't have to spend eternity with people I don't generally care for on either side of the spectrum!I'm more concerned with policy that tells people that their actions on earth can affect others after they have passed away. Seems (to me) like it is unhealthy to believe that a person has the "power" to reach into eternity and affect the "afterlife".*sigh* It's just like asking, "Would you like to be baptized?" You can either say, "No, I wouldn't." Or, "Yes, I would." If I offered you a slice of "Death By Chocolate", I would just put the plate in front of you. I wouldn't pin you down and shove it down your throat. The choice is yours.
selek Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 I just have a healthy fear of those that believe their path is the only way with such determination that they do not consider the wishes of others important.And that's what you just don't want to get: Your wishes are NOT being ignored. Nothing they do on you is in any way binding without your consent. You still retain your ability to choose damnation or salvation (until Heavenly Father decides to take salvation off the table).
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