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God's Progression


Sargon

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If you don't believe that God progresses, then this thread is not for you. Just go on to the next one.

Still here?

It is my current understanding that LDS hold some common beliefs in regards to how God progresses. Some believe God progresses in knowledge, some believe he progresses in glory, and some belief both.

I have commonly believed that part of the purpose for creating man was for God's glory. I also believe that as a human being God naturally wanted a family also.

But I have believed that God progresses in glory when one of his children successfully reaches the status of godhood. It is an achievement not only for that individual, but for Heavenly Father. My question is, does God decrease in glory when one of his children is sent to eternal outer darkness? After all is said and done, is it theoretically possible that God's net change in glory can decrease after we are all judged and placed in our kingdoms?

I have not had the opportunity to read any LDS material on this subject, so I am doing it the fast way and petitioning you all for your ideas.

Thanks.

Sargon

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Some believe God progresses in knowledge, some believe he progresses in glory, and some belief both.

I believe God progresses in knowledge the same way the main character in Flatland by Abbot progressed in knowledge. He live in two dimensional land and was as God to those in the one dimensional land and Pointland. Those living in lesser dimensions could not conceive of the higher dimension he came from.

So likewise, when the main character is visited by a person from the three dimensional land (Spaceland), his eyes are opened but he is reviled and imprisoned as a heretic by those of his own kind. It is interesting to note that when he asked the character from Spaceland if there was a 4th dimension, the Spaceland character rejected such a ridiculous notion out of hand.

But I have believed that God progresses in glory when one of his children successfully reaches the status of godhood. It is an achievement not only for that individual, but for Heavenly Father. My question is, does God decrease in glory when one of his children is sent to eternal outer darkness? After all is said and done, is it theoretically possible that God's net change in glory can decrease after we are all judged and placed in our kingdoms?

Perhaps the question that should be asked is does a person have any glory at all before being elevated to Godhood. If the answer is no, then no glory is lost when one goes to OD. If yes, then that glory is lost when one goes to OD.

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If you don't believe that God progresses, then this thread is not for you. Just go on to the next one.

Still here?

It is my current understanding that LDS hold some common beliefs in regards to how God progresses. Some believe God progresses in knowledge, some believe he progresses in glory, and some belief both.

,,,,

I have not had the opportunity to read any LDS material on this subject, so I am doing it the fast way and petitioning you all for your ideas.

Thanks. Sargon

When you use the term God, do you mean a finite personage (for instance Jesus) who represents a greater infinite God that he is one with? Or do you mean the greater infinite God itself? Are Jesus and His Father two Gods, or are part of the same one God? Or is this babble to you?

Your definition of God will affect the answer to your question, I believe.

Richard

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When you use the term God, do you mean a finite personage (for instance Jesus) who represents a greater infinite God that he is one with? Or do you mean the greater infinite God itself? Are Jesus and His Father two Gods, or are part of the same one God? Or is this babble to you?

Your definition of God will affect the answer to your question, I believe.

Richard

I am a TBM, that should answer it for you. Thanks.

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I have decidedly separated the terms holiness/righteousness from the term glory. While holiness/righteousness is a source of power and is what makes someone worthy of being called a god, glory is an unavoidable consequence of an increase in holiness/righteousness.

As I currently comprehend the issue, God(Elohim) was most likely holy/righteous before ever organizing our spirits or creating this earth. He cannot decrease in h/r(holiness/righteousness)(which is the source of his power) unless he chooses to. Our actions have no impact on those attributes of his godliness.

But as far as "glory" is concerned, I am not exactly sure how to define the word. I believe God does increase in some way when we increase in h/r. I believe that God's glory is what progresses/increases when we his children advance in h/r.

So that being said, it is conceivable that while God's h/r never decreases(and therefore his godhood is secure), he might decrease in glory as a result of our(his children) decrease in h/r?

BCspace answered:

Perhaps the question that should be asked is does a person have any glory at all before being elevated to Godhood. If the answer is no, then no glory is lost when one goes to OD. If yes, then that glory is lost when one goes to OD.

I think that from the time our spirits are organized, we have no glory or h/r and therefore God has not increased in glory at all at that point. As we increase in obedience and holiness, God's glory increases.

So what if someone increases to a great level of h/r, and then dramatically decreases through wicked choices(ie Luficer)? Is God's glory(not his godhood) affected by that?

Sargon

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God is already omniscient, so I think there is no way that he can progress in knowledge, at least in the sense of learning more about the universe as it is.

I think the better term is "eternal increase" rather than "eternal progression." In that sense, God's dominion continually increases as He expands it, whether it is through spirit children or creation of new planets or even universes. Also, God's dominions and power increase as His children become gods themselves and begin to have their own spiritual descendents and dominions.

It is interesting to me that the scriptures say that God will come to earth and rule here personally, turning it into the celestial kingdom. Something wrong with Kolob? :P I think it represents a landmark in God's own progression -- His spirit children have reached a point where He can now dwell among them on His own, almost like the kids moving out of the house and into a home of their own.

I think it is apparent that God sees and feels everything we see and feel. I think this is one reason that gratitude to God is so important. I think also that it means as we, and our own spiritual descendents, increase in number that God, in a sense, continues to gain knowledge and power through the creation of additional knowledge. As there are more spiritual children, there is more to know about them, more to experience through their lives, more of their triumphs and their failures, more of what you see through their eyes, touch with their fingers, hear with their ears, etc.

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If you don't believe that God progresses, then this thread is not for you. Just go on to the next one.

Still here?

It is my current understanding that LDS hold some common beliefs in regards to how God progresses. Some believe God progresses in knowledge, some believe he progresses in glory, and some belief both.

I have commonly believed that part of the purpose for creating man was for God's glory. I also believe that as a human being God naturally wanted a family also.

But I have believed that God progresses in glory when one of his children successfully reaches the status of godhood. It is an achievement not only for that individual, but for Heavenly Father. My question is, does God decrease in glory when one of his children is sent to eternal outer darkness? After all is said and done, is it theoretically possible that God's net change in glory can decrease after we are all judged and placed in our kingdoms?

I have not had the opportunity to read any LDS material on this subject, so I am doing it the fast way and petitioning you all for your ideas.

Thanks.

Sargon

My belief is there is a co-operative between all divine beings which create one "God." G-d (our Father) increases in glory and knowledge (by "knowledge," I don't mean divine truths or eternal laws, but more menial "knowledge" that is more of a curiosity than a necessity) as every other divine being increases in glory and knowledge. There is only one "God," and all "Gods" have a unity to form this one "God." As one progresses, they all progress.

At least that's my current thoughts on the subject. They will probably change in a week or two.

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If you don't believe that God progresses, then this thread is not for you. Just go on to the next one.

Still here?

It is my current understanding that LDS hold some common beliefs in regards to how God progresses. Some believe God progresses in knowledge, some believe he progresses in glory, and some belief both.

I have commonly believed that part of the purpose for creating man was for God's glory. I also believe that as a human being God naturally wanted a family also.

But I have believed that God progresses in glory when one of his children successfully reaches the status of godhood. It is an achievement not only for that individual, but for Heavenly Father. My question is, does God decrease in glory when one of his children is sent to eternal outer darkness? After all is said and done, is it theoretically possible that God's net change in glory can decrease after we are all judged and placed in our kingdoms?

I have not had the opportunity to read any LDS material on this subject, so I am doing it the fast way and petitioning you all for your ideas.

Thanks.

Sargon

So your actual question is "Can God decrease in Glory?" Well lets say the majority are progressing and doing works that glorify God and the minority are failing. I believe that would make those gaining glory more than those taking it away and thereby giving the Father progressive glory rather than regressive glory.

Christ's glory to the Father alone would outshine anything a miserable sinner down here could do.

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So your actual question is "Can God decrease in Glory?" Well lets say the majority are progressing and doing works that glorify God and the minority are failing. I believe that would make those gaining glory more than those taking it away and thereby giving the Father progressive glory rather than regressive glory.

Christ's glory to the Father alone would outshine anything a miserable sinner down here could do.

Thank you Hammer. I have been considering this reply as well. Even if everyone who chose to follow Christ ended up in OD, they would still have bodies of flesh and bone making them more glorious than they were before, adding glory to the Father. They would be very far from being godlike, but more glorious nonetheless.

Sargon

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I believe God progresses in knowledge the same way the main character in Flatland by Abbot progressed in knowledge.

I've been wanting to read this book... Is it worth it? I think it's mentioned in Hyperspace by Dr. Kaku, which is why I got interested in it in the first place.

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If you don't believe that God progresses, then this thread is not for you. Just go on to the next one.

Still here?

It is my current understanding that LDS hold some common beliefs in regards to how God progresses. Some believe God progresses in knowledge, some believe he progresses in glory, and some belief both.

I have commonly believed that part of the purpose for creating man was for God's glory. I also believe that as a human being God naturally wanted a family also.

But I have believed that God progresses in glory when one of his children successfully reaches the status of godhood. It is an achievement not only for that individual, but for Heavenly Father. My question is, does God decrease in glory when one of his children is sent to eternal outer darkness? After all is said and done, is it theoretically possible that God's net change in glory can decrease after we are all judged and placed in our kingdoms?

I have not had the opportunity to read any LDS material on this subject, so I am doing it the fast way and petitioning you all for your ideas.

Thanks.

Sargon

If you can find Joseph Smith's "Lectures on Faith" -- which I have not read yet (only bits and pieces) -- that is an excellent book to read.

From our scriptures:

Moses 1: 39

39 For behold, this is my work and my gloryâ??to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

God's "satisfaction" in life -- what "gets Him up in the morning" - is US. Helping us. Blessing us. Making us a little bit better than we were yesterday, or last month, or last year. Bringing to pass OUR immortality and OUR eternal life.

I don't know for sure if He actually "learns" anything new anymore. I mean, if you are the Creator of "a" Universe -- I don't think there remains much to hold your interest anymore. Been there, done that -- to put it bluntly. So -- how do you fill your time? You fill your time by helping your children become JUST LIKE YOU. That is what God does. He helps us become JUST LIKE HIM. It is an act of love on His part. It's not something He HAS to do. It's something He WANTS to do -- even "ENJOYS" doing!!

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If you can find Joseph Smith's "Lectures on Faith" -- which I have not read yet (only bits and pieces) -- that is an excellent book to read.

From our scriptures:

Moses 1: 39

39 For behold, this is my work and my gloryâ??to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

God's "satisfaction" in life -- what "gets Him up in the morning" - is US. Helping us. Blessing us. Making us a little bit better than we were yesterday, or last month, or last year. Bringing to pass OUR immortality and OUR eternal life.

I don't know for sure if He actually "learns" anything new anymore. I mean, if you are the Creator of "a" Universe -- I don't think there remains much to hold your interest anymore. Been there, done that -- to put it bluntly. So -- how do you fill your time? You fill your time by helping your children become JUST LIKE YOU. That is what God does. He helps us become JUST LIKE HIM. It is an act of love on His part. It's not something He HAS to do. It's something He WANTS to do -- even "ENJOYS" doing!!

Those are great insights. What do you think about when one of us doesn't make it? What effect does it have on God's glory then?

Sargon

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Those are great insights. What do you think about when one of us doesn't make it? What effect does it have on God's glory then?

Sargon

I don't think God's glory is diminished. Rather, God's glory is increased by bringing us up to His level. Since we started as nothing, then any improvement at all from any of us increases God's glory. Taking a spirit that is not worthy of a kingdom of glory and raising him to a telestial glory is a great accomplishment, is it not? As for the sons of perdition, who knows? God has not shown us their end, but even managing to sort them out probably adds to the glory of God.

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