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Christ Was A Man And Became A God?


JohnBWalt

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Mola Ram Suda Ram,

I guess we are at an impass. Fine the Father is God and Jesus is Lord. I agree with that. What does that mean?

It means there are NOT two seperate Gods like the Mormon Church teaches.

This passage does nothing to strengthen your postion. In fact it seems to make them very much separate. One is God the other is Lord.

They are distinct persons, one is God the other is Lord. It strenghten the position that there are NOT two seperate Gods.

Can I pray to the HG. If so were in the scriptures does it say that I can?

A person prays to the Father.

What about at Jesus baptism. There was Jesus and a voice that said," Behold my Son in whom I am well pleased". And the HG was shown in the form of a dove. Was Jesus a vantrilliquist?

Again there are three distinct persons ...

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Zakuska,

According to Psalm 110 and Christ's interpretation their are two Lord's.

Neither Psalm 110 or Christ's interpretation support the Mormon teaching that Elohim and Jehovha are seperate Gods.

The problem is the Greek words Johhny... They are the equivalent of YHWH.

There are 2 JEHOVAHS.

Unlike the Catholic Creeds. (See two can play childish games and post like 5th graders... but that doesn't make it right :P)

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Mola Ram Suda Ram,

It means there are NOT two seperate Gods like the Mormon Church teaches.

They are distinct persons, one is God the other is Lord. It strenghten the position that there are NOT two seperate Gods.

A person prays to the Father.

Again there are three distinct persons ...

Ok so here we go. Jesus is not God to you then? Is that what you are trying to say? They also were separte at Jesus baptism. They were separte and distinctly diffrent. All 3 were present.

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Zakuska,

That is my point, it DOES NOT mention Elohim.

Zak its time for some Vodka. It might go better with this discussion??

BTW I dont really drink.

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Mola Ram Suda Ram,

Ok so here we go. Jesus is not God to you then? Is that what you are trying to say? They also were separte at Jesus baptism. They were separte and distinctly diffrent. All 3 were present.

Jesus is NOT God the Father. The Father is distinct from the Son. At the baptism the three distinct persons were present.

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Mola Ram Suda Ram,

Jesus is NOT God the Father. The Father is distinct from the Son. At the baptism the three distinct persons were present.

Yes I know this. That is the point of me bringing it up. I guess there isnt a diffrence here then. You claim one thing then go down a diffrent road. God the Father is distinct but He is the same as the Son ( or manifest in the Son) But some how we end up that they are all One God, literally.

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Mola Ram Suda Ram,

It might better if you could explain why the Mormon Church teaches there are "three Gods"?

Well any way you slice the pie 3=3. It really isnt that hard of an equation. Are all 3 One God? I believe so but not physically. They are separate distinct people. Some were there seems to be a break down in communication. You almost believe the same thing but are not willing to do so. I cant figure it out.

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Mola Ram Suda Ram,

Yes I know this. That is the point of me bringing it up. I guess there isnt a diffrence here then. You claim one thing then go down a diffrent road. God the Father is distinct but He is the same as the Son ( or manifest in the Son) But some how we end up that they are all One God, literally.

Do you believe that "that God was in Christ" (2Cor 5:19) ... please explain your answer so I can better understand what you believe.

2Cor 5

[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

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Mola Ram Suda Ram,

Well any way you slice the pie 3=3. It really isnt that hard of an equation. Are all 3 One God? I believe so but not physically. They are separate distinct people. Some were there seems to be a break down in communication. You almost believe the same thing but are not willing to do so. I cant figure it out.

So you believe that the Father, the Son, and the HG are "three Gods" ... could you please provide some scripture to support you belief.

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Mola Ram Suda Ram,

Do you believe that "that God was in Christ" (2Cor 5:19) ... please explain your answer so I can better understand what you believe.

2Cor 5

[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

In other words If we look at John 17 as the starting point. They are one in purpose. God was in Christ in perfect and unifrom harmony in purpose. Was the Father literally in Christ in terms of his being. I dont hink so. The scripture you cite doesnt say. It seems to aluded to Him doing the Fathers will??

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Mola Ram Suda Ram,

In other words If we look at John 17 as the starting point. They are one in purpose.

I would agree they are one in purpose.

God was in Christ in perfect and unifrom harmony in purpose.

Please explain how the indwelling God was "reconciling the world unto himself"?

2Cor 5

[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Was the Father literally in Christ in terms of his being. I dont hink so.

Christ tells us that the indwelling Father did the works (John 14:10) ... how could he do the works if he wasn't literally in Christ?

John.14

[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The scripture you cite doesnt say. It seems to aluded to Him doing the Fathers will??

What do you mean "The scripture you cite doesnt say"?

The Son does the Father's will, they are one in purpose.

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LifeOnaPlate,

Johnny, I hate to say this, but I am not convinced you understand traditional Catholic doctrine on the Trinity.

I hate to say this, but you must not understand traditional Catholic doctrine on the Trinity. See the teaching and the links below for official Catholic Church teachings related to the Trinity.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm#III

http://comparing-views.com/book/c05trinity.htm

253 - The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God." In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature"

200 - "I believe in one God" These are the words with which the Niceno- Constantinopolitan Creed begins. The confession of God's oneness, which has its roots in the divine revelation of the Old Covenant, is inseparable from the profession of God's existence and is equally fundamental. God is unique; there is only one God: The Christian faith confesses that God is one in nature, substance and essence

254 -The divine persons are really distinct from one another. God is one but not solitary. "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son. They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds. The divine Unity is Triune

255 - The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance. Indeed everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship. Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son

202 - Jesus himself affirms that God is "the one Lord" whom you must love "with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength" [Mk 12:29-30]. At the same time Jesus gives us to understand that he himself is "the Lord" [Mk 12:35-37]. To confess that Jesus is Lord is distinctive of Christian faith. This is not contrary to belief in the One God. Nor does believing in the Holy Spirit as "Lord and giver of life" introduce any division into the One God: We firmly believe and confess without reservation that there is only one true God, eternal infinite (immensus) and unchangeable, incomprehensible, almighty and ineffable, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or nature entirely simple

260 - The ultimate end of the whole divine economy is the entry of God's creatures into the perfect unity of the Blessed Trinity [Jn 17:21-23]. But even now we are called to be a dwelling for the Most Holy Trinity: "If a man loves me", says the Lord, "he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him" [Jn 14:23]

254 - The title "Son of God" signifies the unique and eternal relationship of Jesus Christ to God his Father: he is the only Son of the Father (Jn 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18); he is God himself (Jn 1:1). To be a Christian, one must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Acts 8:37; 1 Jn 2:23)

151 - We can believe in Jesus Christ because he is himself God, the Word made flesh.

469 - Jesus is inseparably true God and true man. He is truly the Son of God who, without ceasing to be God and Lord, became a man and our brother:

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Mola Ram Suda Ram,

I would agree they are one in purpose.

Please explain how the indwelling God was "reconciling the world unto himself"?

2Cor 5

[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Christ tells us that the indwelling Father did the works (John 14:10) ... how could he do the works if he wasn't literally in Christ?

John.14

[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

What do you mean "The scripture you cite doesnt say"?

The Son does the Father's will, they are one in purpose.

It all goes back to one in purpose. Christ does the works of the Father not becuase the Father is literally in Christ but becuase they are one in purpose. The Father doesnt literally dwell in Christ, again this verse seem to say that. Also if I did the works of God that doesnt mean that God the Father is literally in me. Its all about the purpose. Hmmm. I probably wont be able to respond any more til tommorow.

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Mola Ram Suda Ram,

It all goes back to one in purpose.

This oneness in John 17 comes from the fact that the "Father, art in me, and I in thee". Why don't believe Jesus when he says "believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:38)?

John.17

[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John.10

[30] I and my Father are one.

[38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Christ does the works of the Father not becuase the Father is literally in Christ but becuase they are one in purpose. The Father doesnt literally dwell in Christ, again this verse seem to say that.

How can you say "The Father doesnt literally dwell in Christ"? The verse is saying that the indwelling Father is doing the works.

John.14

[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Also if I did the works of God that doesnt mean that God the Father is literally in me.

Scripture would disagree with you. Scripture says "it is God which worketh in you" (Phil 2:13). The Father dwells in you (John 14:23).

Phil.2

[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

John.14

[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Its all about the purpose. Hmmm. I probably wont be able to respond any more til tommorow.

I would agree it is all about the purpose. That is why Jesus who is God became flesh (John 1:1,14). Jesus DID NOT BECOME God, while on earth Jesus was fully God (Col 2:9).

John 1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Col.2

[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I probably wont be able to respond any more til tommorow.

I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas. Maybe tomorrow you could respond to why you believe in "three Gods" ... maybe you could tells us which one of the "three Gods" was manifest in the flesh (1Tim 3:16)..

I believe like Thomas, Jesus is 'My God" and "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God" (John 20:28). When Stephen called upon God, he said "Lord Jesus" (Acts 7:59). I believe like the Apostle Paul, he says "there is none other God but one ... one God, the Father ... one Lord Jesus Christ" and there is "that are called gods" (1Cor 8:4-6).

1Tim.3

[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John.20

[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[31] But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

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I don't remember in the Bible the Jew's and Christ's diciples running around calling Jesus "God" or the "Most High God". They called him LORD.

There is one God, he is the Father.

There is one God (as the Trinity, Father, Son, & Holy Ghost)

....yet, each as also God individually.

Or are Catholics and other Christians NOT calling Jesus "God" any more?

So let's do this again.

God refers to the Father.

God refers to the GodHead.

God refers to those who exercise the Fathers Will, as a Title. This, it can also refer to Christ, and even the Holy Ghost.

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Hey Johnny....

The Father is also in ME, and I in Him.

and Paul

and Peter

and you sometimes I'm sure :P

etc. etc.

You are misusing the scripture to make your own case, not applying it too what it's actually talking about.

Plus, Christ is obviously a special case. He's the Father's "intermediary" with man and the earth. All of the Father's is Christs also, for Christ serves the Father. He's the Savior, the Only Begotten in the Flesh, etc. etc. So of course the Father is going to be more "in him" than maybe the rest of us, what's new about that? That doesn't make them the same being, as different personages, any more than it makes us that way when the same words are used to describe the same ideas. And they are used the same, or did you miss that in the Bible?

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Obiwan,

I don't remember in the Bible the Jew's and Christ's diciples running around calling Jesus "God" or the "Most High God". They called him LORD.

Check your bible again, Christ's disciples called Jesus "God" (see below):

John.20

[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John.1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

....yet, each as also God individually.

Are you saying that there are "three Gods" like Joseph Smith taught. The Apostle Paul would differ with you and Joseph Smith, Paul taught one God (1Cor 8:4):

1Cor.8

[4] As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Or are Catholics and other Christians NOT calling Jesus "God" any more?

The Catholic Church teaches what the Bible reveals and that is ...

151 - We can believe in Jesus Christ because he is himself God, the Word made flesh.

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Obiwan,

The Father is also in ME, and I in Him.

Joseph Smith would disagree with you about the Father being in YOU,

D&C 130:

3 John 14:23?The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man?s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

You are misusing the scripture to make your own case, not applying it too what it's actually talking about.

What is it actually talking about?

Plus, Christ is obviously a special case. He's the Father's "intermediary" with man and the earth. All of the Father's is Christs also, for Christ serves the Father. He's the Savior, the Only Begotten in the Flesh, etc. etc. So of course the Father is going to be more "in him" than maybe the rest of us, what's new about that?

Explain the meaning of words "reconciling the world unto himself" in 2Cor 5:19 ... what's new about that.

2Cor.5

[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

That doesn't make them the same being, as different personages, any more than it makes us that way when the same words are used to describe the same ideas. And they are used the same, or did you miss that in the Bible?

It would make them "one in being" like the Creeds teach and like what the Bible reveals or did you miss that in the Bible?

John.20

[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Acts.7

[59] And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

John.10

[30] I and my Father are one.

[38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John.1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

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I purchased the book "I Have An Answer" by Dr. David Pressley Bowman at the FAIR book store.

It says on page 93 that "It is not hard to believe that God was once a man when we realize that Christ was a man and became a God."

Why would he say that when Mosiah 7:27 and 13:34 says Jesus is God before taking on human flesh?

John Walt

I think the core argument is what Traditional Christianity believes (e.g., what the Councils of the Early Christian Church, Circa 1st Century AD established as accepted orthodoxy) and what the LDS (both reformed and conservative) believe. IIRC, the core distinction is over the deity of Christ and transubstantiation. From what I've been able to read in open source lit the LDS is more or less Arian in it's view of Christ.

Now, this gets into bigger issues about the LDS making claims that it is is the 'true' church as it also tries to integrate itself into 'mainstream' Christianity. Anyone with a sincere bone in their body will delve into their own faith (on either side) and discover for themselves that the two are more like Fish and Bicycles than close cousins.

Asking the question will lead you into one of two camps of faith: You either reject the early First-Century Christian church and it's apostolic tradition and orthodoxy or you reject Joseph Smith's Vision and a tri-polar view of The Godhead. (The recent July 2006 Ensign article by LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley reaffirmed this belief, so the difference isn't a matter of mere speculation - it's official dogma)

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I think the core argument is what Traditional Christianity believes (e.g., what the Councils of the Early Christian Church, Circa 1st Century AD established as accepted orthodoxy) and what the LDS (both reformed and conservative) believe. IIRC, the core distinction is over the deity of Christ and transubstantiation. From what I've been able to read in open source lit the LDS is more or less Arian in it's view of Christ.

Now, this gets into bigger issues about the LDS making claims that it is is the 'true' church as it also tries to integrate itself into 'mainstream' Christianity. Anyone with a sincere bone in their body will delve into their own faith (on either side) and discover for themselves that the two are more like Fish and Bicycles than close cousins.

Asking the question will lead you into one of two camps of faith: You either reject the early First-Century Christian church and it's apostolic tradition and orthodoxy or you reject Joseph Smith's Vision and a bi-polar view of The Godhead. (The recent July 2006 Ensign article by LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley reaffirmed this belief, so the difference isn't a matter of mere speculation - it's official dogma)

I love that you added the word bipolar. Nice, I've never heard that used in Church. Also most churches from what I gather and have been told accept the Nicean creed wich came about 325AD. There have been many many discussion about what the early church believed. Hopefully we will all learn something new. Also I could just as easily say that many traditional Christains have a bipolar view of God. Does that make you feel good?

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