Christ Was A Man And Became A God?

[BCSpace]

Incorrect again. Christ possessed wisdom (an abstraction that is just a property belonging to something already created) and then brought it forth (Proverbs 8:22-24)

Christ is the wisdom of God (1Cor 1:24).

Because Christ posseses wisdom Proverbs 8:22.

Notice also 1 Cor 1:23. These are attributes of Christ (a stumbling block, wisdom of God, power of God), not personified abstractions. johnny's argument further solidifies the fact that the early Church became enamoured of the Greek philosophers which resulted in the universal apostasy out of which came the Catholic church.

[BCSpace]

I do say that through Christ all things are created. How ever the Bible does say Christ is the beginning of the creations of God.

It looks to me that your Revelation 3:14 shows that Christ is the origin, the person that commences, the first in a series, or the active cause.

This is in keeping with Christ being the firstborn and the one who carried out the Father's command to create (Hebrews 1).

[johnny]

BCSpace,

Because Christ posseses wisdom Proverbs 8:22.

You are not making sense, verse 22 says "he LORD possessed me" ... are you saying the LORD possesed himself?

Prov.8

[22] The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

[23] I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

[24] When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

[25] Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

[27] When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

[30] Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Notice also 1 Cor 1:23. These are attributes of Christ (a stumbling block, wisdom of God, power of God), not personified abstractions. johnny's argument further solidifies the fact that the early Church became enamoured of the Greek philosophers which resulted in the universal apostasy out of which came the Catholic church.

My argument is strenghthed by Acts 17 which reveals the Father made the world and all things.

Acts.17

[24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Malachi 2

[10] Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

johnny's argument further solidifies the fact that the early Church became enamoured of the Greek philosophers which resulted in the universal apostasy out of which came the Catholic church.

The Bible reveals the Mormonism contradicts what scripture reveals. For example scripture reveals that the Lord created all angels with a command.

Pss.148

[2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

[5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

[BCSpace]

Because Christ posseses wisdom Proverbs 8:22.

You are not making sense, verse 22 says "he LORD possessed me" ... are you saying the LORD possesed himself?

No, this is Wisdom (as an abstraction) speaking poetically. Therefore, it is simply an attribute of Christ. And as we all know, the Bible proclaims Christ to be Jehovah.

[johnny]

BCSpace,

It looks to me that your Revelation 3:14 shows that Christ is the origin, the person that commences, the first in a series, or the active cause.

Christ is not the person that commences, he is God's Word. By God's Word "all things were made" (John 1:1-3), "by whom are all things" (1Cor 8:6).

John.1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[2] The same was in the beginning with God.

[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

1Cor.8

[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

This is in keeping with Christ being the firstborn and the one who carried out the Father's command to create (Hebrews 1).

He is the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14). He DID NOT carry out the Father's command to create. He is God's Word.

[johnny]

BCSpace,

No, this is Wisdom (as an abstraction) speaking poetically. Therefore, it is simply an attribute of Christ. And as we all know, the Bible proclaims Christ to be Jehovah.

Again, you are inconsistent with scripture, verse 22 clearly says "the LORD possessed me". Again how can the Lord posses himself?

[BCSpace]

Christ is not the person that commences, he is God's Word. By God's Word "all things were made" (John 1:1-3), "by whom are all things" (1Cor 8:6).

Then revelation 3:14 and several other verses must not be the word of God. johnny, your interpretation mjust take all verses into account, not just those that sound good to you.

John.1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[2] The same was in the beginning with God.

[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Amen! So?

1Cor.8

[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Amen! So? (Noting that vs 4-6 shows the existence of other real and divine Gods).

This is in keeping with Christ being the firstborn and the one who carried out the Father's command to create (Hebrews 1).

He is the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14).

Amen! So? He is also the Firstborn Col 1:15, and the firstbegotten Hebrews 1:6

He DID NOT carry out the Father's command to create.

Wrong again.

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Hebrews 1:1-2

He is God's Word.

Amen! So?

[johnny]

BCSpace,

Then revelation 3:14 and several other verses must not be the word of God. johnny, your interpretation mjust take all verses into account, not just those that sound good to you.

Revelation 3:14 is the word of God and this verse and the other verses fits in nicely with the view that I am presenting.

Wrong again.

Hebrews 1:1-2 does NOT saying anything about "the one who carried out the Father's command to create".

Hebrews fits nicely with what I am presenting. It is by God's word, the Word is the "by whom are all things" (1Cor 8:6). The Father is "of whom are all things" (1Cor 8:6).

Mormon doctrine does not fit all the scriptures, in fact it contradicts many Bible scriptures.

[BCSpace]

Then revelation 3:14 and several other verses must not be the word of God. johnny, your interpretation mjust take all verses into account, not just those that sound good to you.

Revelation 3:14 is the word of God and this verse and the other verses fits in nicely with the view that I am presenting.

How so?

Wrong again.

Hebrews 1:1-2 does NOT saying anything about "the one who carried out the Father's command to create".

So Christ did it of his own accord? lol

Actually, the lexiconal sense of Hebrews 1:2 is that God used Christ as a tool. Since ( by virtue of the same chapter) they are separate Beings, it can only have been by command.

Hebrews fits nicely with what I am presenting. It is by God's word, the Word is the "by whom are all things" (1Cor 8:6). The Father is "of whom are all things" (1Cor 8:6).

Mormon doctrine does not fit all the scriptures, in fact it contradicts many Bible scriptures.

How so?

[johnny]

BCSpace,

How so?

See my earlier posts ...

So Christ did it of his own accord? lol

Clearly Christ did NOT do of his own accord (1Cor 8:6)

Actually, the lexiconal sense of Hebrews 1:2 is that God used Christ as a tool. Since ( by virtue of the same chapter) they are separate Beings, it can only have been by command.

Christ was more than a tool, he was the Word of God.

How so?

For example the Bible reveals that the Lord created all the angels with a command (Psalm 148:2,5). Mormonism reveals that the Angel Satan and the Lord were born of heavenly parents.

Mormon doctrine does not fit all the scriptures, in fact it contradicts many Bible scriptures.

Pss.148

[2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

[5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

I will away from the computer the rest of the day ... I will replay tommorrow ...

[BCSpace]

How so?

See my earlier posts ...

The Bible has debunked every one.

So Christ did it of his own accord? lol

Clearly Christ did NOT do of his own accord

(1Cor 8:6)

Then he was commanded just like I said. I'll grant that it may have been framed as a polite request, but such from God is a command nonetheless.

Actually, the lexiconal sense of Hebrews 1:2 is that God used Christ as a tool. Since ( by virtue of the same chapter) they are separate Beings, it can only have been by command.

Christ was more than a tool, he was the Word of God.

Indeed. So? Methinks that, like all nonLDS Christians, you have no idea what is meant by 'Word'.

For example the Bible reveals that the Lord created all the angels with a command (Psalm 148:2,5). Mormonism reveals that the Angel Satan and the Lord were born of heavenly parents.

How is that contradictory? By your logic here, the Genesis 1:28 command is not actually a command.

[jerryp48]

Are there any former devout Catholics that have recently turned LDS who feel they can help Johnny understand?

So long as he looks at our doctrine through his Catholic prism he'll continue to misunderstand. I concede the reverse to be true for us as well.

[johnny]

BCSpace,

The Bible has debunked every one.

Revelation 3:14 does NOT fit Mormonism.

- Mormonism teaches that Christ formed under the direction of the Father.

- The Bible reveals that the Father made all things (Acts 17:24,29). The Father is the "whom are all things" and Christ is the "by whom are all things" and (1Cor 8:6). Christ is the "beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14). "All things came to be through him" (John 1:1-3).

Then he was commanded just like I said. I'll grant that it may have been framed as a polite request, but such from God is a command nonetheless.

Mormonism is not consistent with the Bible. The Father DID NOT command the Son during creation.

It is clear from Genesis 1 and Acts 17 that the Father commanded and made all things. Genesis 1 says "God created ... God said" and Acts 17 says "God that made the world ... we are the offspring of God."

Indeed. So? Methinks that, like all nonLDS Christians, you have no idea what is meant by 'Word'.

What is meant by "Word" (John 1)?

My usage of "Word" is consistent with the lexicon. The lexicon says "In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds."

How is that contradictory?

It is contradictory:

- Psalm 148:2,5 reveals the LORD created all angels

- Col 1:16 reveals Christ is BEFORE all things, he created all things that ARE IN heaven.

- Ne 9:6 reveals the LORD made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host

- Mormonism reveals that the LORD is an angel born of heavenly parents

Mormonism contradicts the Bible ... the Bible reveals the LORD created angels and Mormonism reveals the LORD DID NOT create angels.

[Aquilifer]

Mormonism is not consistent with the Bible. The Father DID NOT command the Son during creation.

It is clear from Genesis 1 and Acts 17 that the Father commanded and made all things. Genesis 1 says "God created ... God said" and Acts 17 says "God that made the world ... we are the offspring of God."

I don't think you understand the Mormon concept of God as a title; understanding that removes the contradictions you're so earnestly after. Nor is it clear from the scriptures you've cited that God = Father. Why should we follow your assumptions instead of our own? Mormonism isn't inconsistent with the Bible, it's inconsistent with your interpretation of the Bible.

- Mormonism reveals that the LORD is an angel born of heavenly parents

Huh? CFR, please.

Mormonism contradicts the Bible ... the Bible reveals the LORD created angels and Mormonism reveals the LORD DID NOT create angels.

Again, CFR. Who DID create angels in Mormonism?

[johnny]

Aquilifer,

I don't think you understand the Mormon concept of God as a title; understanding that removes the contradictions you're so earnestly after. Nor is it clear from the scriptures you've cited that God = Father.

Verse 29 of Acts 17 indicates that God = Father.

Mormonism isn't inconsistent with the Bible, it's inconsistent with your interpretation of the Bible.

What is your interpretatin of Acts 17:24,29?

Acts.17

[24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Huh? CFR, please.

Chapter 2 of the Mormon Gospel Principles says:

Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ (see D&C 93:21), so he is literally our elder brother (see Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 26). Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities.

Again, CFR. Who DID create angels in Mormonism?

Chapter 2 of the Mormon Gospel Principles says:

"All men and women are . . . literally the sons and daughters of Deity. . . . Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body" (Joseph F. Smith, "The Origin of Man," Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, pp. 78, 80).

[Aquilifer]

Aquilifer,

Verse 29 of Acts 17 indicates that God = Father.

What is your interpretatin of Acts 17:24,29?

Acts.17

[24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Again, you're not understanding the Mormon concept of deity, which remains fully consistent with Acts 17.

Chapter 2 of the Mormon Gospel Principles says:

Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ (see D&C 93:21), so he is literally our elder brother (see Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 26). Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities.

Chapter 2 of the Mormon Gospel Principles says:

"All men and women are . . . literally the sons and daughters of Deity. . . . Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body" (Joseph F. Smith, "The Origin of Man," Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, pp. 78, 80).

What does any of that have to do with angels, namely your assertion that Mormons believe the Lord is an angel, and that Mormons believe that God did not create angels? I don't think we're even on the same wavelength here.

[johnny]

Aquilifer,

Again, you're not understanding the Mormon concept of deity, which remains fully consistent with Acts 17.

How can it be consistent with Acts 17?

Mormon scripture reveal "Gods" and Acts 17 reveals "God".

The Prophet Isaiah says God was alone and by himself during creation.

What does any of that have to do with angels, namely your assertion that Mormons believe the Lord is an angel, and that Mormons believe that God did not create angels? I don't think we're even on the same wavelength here.

Please answer the following questions so I know what wavelength you are on:

- was the Jesus an angel?

- Was the Jesus born of heavenly parents?

[BCSpace]

How can it be consistent with Acts 17?

Mormon scripture reveal "Gods" and Acts 17 reveals "God".

Avoision. It proves that man can see God.

The Prophet Isaiah says God was alone and by himself during creation.

The prophet Moses says otherwise in Genesis 1-2. Your problem is contextual. The Isaiah 40-45 set is in the context of who the Israelites are to worship and no other Gods exist for that purpose. Notice that Jehovah redirects worship from himself to his Father in John 20:17. Two Gods already.

Please answer the following questions so I know what wavelength you are on:

- was the Jesus an angel?

- Was the Jesus born of heavenly parents?

Was Adam commanded to multiply and replenish the earth? Your logic only addresses the command, not the how.

What does any of that have to do with angels, namely your assertion that Mormons believe the Lord is an angel, and that Mormons believe that God did not create angels? I don't think we're even on the same wavelength here.

johnny is not even on the same wavelength as the Bible.

[johnny]

b]BCSpace,

Avoision. It proves that man can see God.

Acts 17 proves that one God created, Mormon scripture contradicts Acts 17. Mormon Scriptures reveals "Gods" during creation.

The prophet Moses says otherwise in Genesis 1-2. Your problem is contextual.

Clearly Genesis 1-2 reveals that there is one God during creation, Genesis says "God created ... God said". Mormon scripture contradicts the Bible, Mormon Scripture says "Gods".

The Isaiah 40-45 set is in the context of who the Israelites are to worship and no other Gods exist for that purpose.

Why do you ignore the context of Isaiah 44?

The context is creation, it reveals God was alone and by himself. The Prophet Isaiah contrdicts the Prophet Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith revealed that God was NOT alone and by himself during creation.

It appears you have to ignore Bible scripture to make Mormonism make any sense.

Notice that Jehovah redirects worship from himself to his Father in John 20:17. Two Gods already.

John 20:17 is NOT about two Gods. The Son of God has a God.

Paul clarifies that there are NOT "two Gods", he says "there is none other God but one ... one God, the Father ... and one Lord Jesus Christ" (1Cor 8:4-6).

Was Adam commanded to multiply and replenish the earth? Your logic only addresses the command, not the how.

Adam was blessed to multiply.

Why do you ignore the simply questions above, I will repeat them below.

- was the Jesus an angel?

- Was the Jesus born of heavenly parents?

johnny is not even on the same wavelength as the Bible.

It is clear you are not on the same wavelength as the Bible. You were not able to address my points from my earlier post on this thread. In that post I said:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...mp;p=1208252411

Revelation 3:14 does NOT fit Mormonism.

- Mormonism teaches that Christ formed under the direction of the Father.

- The Bible reveals that the Father made all things (Acts 17:24,29). The Father is the "whom are all things" and Christ is the "by whom are all things" and (1Cor 8:6). Christ is the "beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14). "All things came to be through him" (John 1:1-3).

Mormonism is not consistent with the Bible. The Father DID NOT command the Son during creation. It is clear from Genesis 1 and Acts 17 that the Father commanded and made all things. Genesis 1 says "God created ... God said" and Acts 17 says "God that made the world ... we are the offspring of God."

My usage of "Word" is consistent with the lexicon. The lexicon says "In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds."

Mormonism contradicts the Bible ... the Bible reveals the LORD created angels and Mormonism reveals the LORD DID NOT create angels.

- Psalm 148:2,5 reveals the LORD created all angels

- Col 1:16 reveals Christ is BEFORE all things, he created all things that ARE IN heaven.

- Ne 9:6 reveals the LORD made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host

- Mormonism reveals that the LORD is an angel born of heavenly parents

[Lachoneus]

Acts 17 proves that one God created, Mormon scripture contradicts Acts 17. Mormon Scriptures reveals "Gods" during creation.

Acts 17 says nothing about the number of Gods involved in the creation. On the other hand, the Bible reveals "Gods" had a part in the creation. First, the word "Elohim" is a plural, "Gods.". Second, Genesis 1:26 reveals that God said, "Let US make man in OUR image . . ." In verse 27 the Bible reveals that God created man is His image, "male and female created he them," clearly revealing a plurality of Gods - male and female. Later, God notes that "Behold, the man is become as ONE of US, to know good and evil . . ." (Genesis 3:22) The Bible is Mormon scripture, and, as you say, Mormon scripture reveals "Gods" during creation.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Acts 17 says nothing about the number of Gods involved in the creation.

Other verses clarify Acts 17. Malachi says "one God" (Isaiah 44:24) and the Prophet Isaiah said God was alone and by himself (Malachi 2:1).

On the other hand, the Bible reveals "Gods" had a part in the creation. First, the word "Elohim" is a plural, "Gods.". Second, Genesis 1:26 reveals that God said, "Let US make man in OUR image . . ." In verse 27 the Bible reveals that God created man is His image, "male and female created he them," clearly revealing a plurality of Gods - male and female. Later, God notes that "Behold, the man is become as ONE of US, to know good and evil . . ." (Genesis 3:22) The Bible is Mormon scripture, and, as you say, Mormon scripture reveals "Gods" during creation.

Genesis 1 does NOT reveal "Gods". Genesis 1 makes it clear that one God created, it clearly says "God created ... God said".

In Genesis 1:26 the "us" is:

- "Word", "was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1,3)

- "Wisdom", "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way" (Prov 8:22)

The Bible is Mormon scripture, and, as you say, Mormon scripture reveals "Gods" during creation.

Mormon scripture reveals "Gods" during creation and the Bible reveals "one God" during creation and he was alone and by himself (Malachi 2:1; Isaiah 44:24).

[Lachoneus]

Other verses clarify Acts 17.

So I take it that you admit that Acts 17 says nothing about the number of Gods involved in the creation, contrary to your earlier statement.

Malachi says "one God" (Isaiah 44:24) and the Prophet Isaiah said God was alone and by himself (Malachi 2:1).

Malachi 2:1 says nothing about "one God." "AND now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you."

Why does your interpretation of Isaiah 44:24 directly contradict God's word in Genesis 1:26?

Genesis 1 does NOT reveal "Gods". Genesis 1 makes it clear that one God created, it clearly says "God created ... God said".

As I said, the word "Elohim" is plural. Why does your interpretation of Genesis 1:1 directly contradict God's word in Genesis 1:26?

In Genesis 1:26 the "us" is:

- "Word", "was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1,3)

- "Wisdom", "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way" (Prov 8:22)

In other words, God the Word (John 1:1) was present in the beginning with God the Father (John 1:2), thus making TWO Gods present at the creation, just as I already explained and contrary to your interpretation of Isaiah.

If Wisdom was also there, then your interpretation of Isaiah is very, very wrong if you think that God was entirely alone in the creation. You have just admitted that two other beings were also there with God the Father.

. . . the Bible reveals "one God" during creation and he was alone and by himself (Malachi 2:1; Isaiah 44:24).

This is a false statement, as discussed above. It is directly contradictory of God's own words that there were other beings ("us") at the creation and your own statement that the Word and Wisdom were both also present at the creation.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Lachoneus,

Other verses clarify Acts 17. Malachi says "one God" (Isaiah 44:24) and the Prophet Isaiah said God was alone and by himself (Malachi 2:1).

Genesis 1 does NOT reveal "Gods". Genesis 1 makes it clear that one God created, it clearly says "God created ... God said".

In Genesis 1:26 the "us" is:

- "Word", "was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1,3)

- "Wisdom", "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way" (Prov 8:22)

Mormon scripture reveals "Gods" during creation and the Bible reveals "one God" during creation and he was alone and by himself (Malachi 2:1; Isaiah 44:24).

You do realize the Greek word translated as "Word" in John 1 could be translated into many different words, right?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Word, or Logos

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

So I take it that you admit that Acts 17 says nothing about the number of Gods involved in the creation, contrary to your earlier statement.

I admit Acts 17 does not mention "Gods" like Mormon scripture.

Malachi 2:1 says nothing about "one God." "AND now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you."

Sorry wrong verse, it should be Malachi 2:10

Mal.2

[10] Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Why does your interpretation of Isaiah 44:24 directly contradict God's word in Genesis 1:26?

Isaiah 44:2 is consistent with Genesis 1:26. Isaiah 44:2 reveals that God was alone during creation. Like I said earlier the "us" is God's Word, God's Wisdom.

As I said, the word "Elohim" is plural. Why does your interpretation of Genesis 1:1 directly contradict God's word in Genesis 1:26?

See above ... it is important to understand who the "us" is in Genesis 1:26.

In other words, God the Word (John 1:1) was present in the beginning with God the Father (John 1:2), thus making TWO Gods present at the creation, just as I already explained and contrary to your interpretation of Isaiah.

In other words, God's "Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1). This does not mean "TWO Gods" because "the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

If Wisdom was also there, then your interpretation of Isaiah is very, very wrong if you think that God was entirely alone in the creation. You have just admitted that two other beings were also there with God the Father.

Wisdom is not a seperate God.