Does Growth Numbers Of The Church Stack Up?

[LifeOnaPlate]

There are some who cannot tolerate the fact that even one person does not support their view of Mormons...let alone a few million. Each and every number is stressful to them. They will sleep better knowing that there might be ten less people in the world who disagree with them.

Well, when we do it, it is "trotting"...when they do it it is reporting. The only thing we are supposed to trot out is the content of our checkbooks.

Nicely done.

You're right "trotting out" poor choice of words. I apologize.

I have heard, anecdotally, conversion/baptism rates used to proclaim the truth of the church. So, none here have heard that, that's fine, so my story doesn't mean a great deal.

When my church does this, I find it unseemly. That's all. Just a comment.

I take my point of view on it from Matthew 7:

14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[Hoops22]

I take my point of view on it from Matthew 7:

And you interpret this to mean...?

[Severian]

What if they used the same number the activities committee uses for a head count so they can order steaks for the Ward barbecue?

[Severian]

What if they used the same number the activities committee uses for a head count so they can order steaks for the Ward barbecue?

[solomarineris]

What on earth are you talking about?

T-Shirt

What I am saying is you do not run the business of compiling the membership numbers, you are only a member who has a stake of this large religious & spiritual entity. Unlike other organizations, (religious,comercial) you are not privy to any concrete information about financial or membership numbers.

Now that you are a member of this Church and when you get the information about membership numbers last week being close to 13Mil and you get another news about membership floating around 10Mil,

(http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1483288)

whom would you believe?

If this was a business, the numbers it declares would be no more reliable than ENRON's used to be.

I don't presume you manage small business with a dozen employees, if you were you'd want to know every detail of your income&expense and you wouldn't be obligated to share information with anyone except your partner.

However being a member in church I believe entitles you all the information, because you and every other member hold the equal stake. All the officials volunteer or paid should be there to serve you.

Not other way around.

[Stargazer]

There are no resignations reported (the rumor has it anywhere from 10 to 100thousand yearly)

Interesting rumor. I spent 7 years as our ward clerk and though resignations were strictly a bishop/stake pres. issue, I kept up with our ward membership list pretty closely the whole time, and I believe that during that 7 years there were only about five name-removal requests. And one of those returned within five years.

[Jaybear]

Interesting rumor. I spent 7 years as our ward clerk and though resignations were strictly a bishop/stake pres. issue, I kept up with our ward membership list pretty closely the whole time, and I believe that during that 7 years there were only about five name-removal requests. And one of those returned within five years.

When were those seven years?

[Lightbearer]

You're right "trotting out" poor choice of words. I apologize.

I have heard, anecdotally, conversion/baptism rates used to proclaim the truth of the church. So, none here have heard that, that's fine, so my story doesn't mean a great deal.

When my church does this, I find it unseemly. That's all. Just a comment.

Actually quite the opposite is true doctrinally:

(1 Nephi 14:12) "And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw."

From that I am to understand that the Church (compared to the world at large) is to be small, although it will be found among all nations in the last days.

[Helmuth]

Actually quite the opposite is true doctrinally:From that I am to understand that the Church (compared to the world at large) is to be small, although it will be found among all nations in the last days.

Just because the dominions of the church of the Lamb are small at one point in history, does not preclude them from becoming large at a point in history in the future, perhaps even to exceed the dominions of the great and abominable church.

If you read carefully, you will see that chronologically it appears that Nephi saw the small dominions of the church of the Lamb at a point in time *prior* to the Father commencing to prepare the way for the fulfilling of His covenants. Thus, perhaps, a time prior even to the restoration and the coming forth of the BoM (see 3N 21:1-7, a really long run-on sentence that explains that when the BoM comes forth, that's when you'll know that the Father has commenced fulfilling His covenants).

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these thingsâ??

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

[Lightbearer]

Just because the dominions of the church of the Lamb are small at one point in history, does not preclude them from becoming large at a point in history in the future, perhaps even to exceed the dominions of the great and abominable church.

If you read carefully, you will see that chronologically it appears that Nephi saw the small dominions of the church of the Lamb at a point in time *prior* to the Father commencing to prepare the way for the fulfilling of His covenants. Thus, perhaps, a time prior even to the restoration and the coming forth of the BoM (see 3N 21:1-7, a really long run-on sentence that explains that when the BoM comes forth, that's when you'll know that the Father has commenced fulfilling His covenants).

I do not think I am reading this out of context. No doubt that the Church will be large and eventually covering the entire earth, but I believe that will be a Millenial event. The reason I believe this is speaking (post 1830) up to our time is because of the following:

[bluebell]

June's Ensign section of church news addresses this very issue.

Membership Retention Rates

Annual statistics released at April general conference indicate the Church is rapidly approaching 13 million members worldwide. This steady growth pattern has continued with about a million new members now being added every three years or less.

These figures were announced just weeks after the National Council of Churches published its 2007 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches, where it listed the Church as the fourth-largest religion in the United States. However, the Church itself makes no statistical comparisons with other churches and makes no claim to be the fastest-growing Christian denomination.

â??The Church is unusual in that it creates membership records and updates them constantly,â? said Church statistician Glen Buckner, who is also a member of the Association of Statisticians of American Religious Bodies.

In 2006 there were more than 272,800 convert baptisms. The net increase for children of record during 2006 was more than 94,000.

Church membership growth numbers are often interpreted inaccurately, which can lead to misconceptions in the media, Brother Buckner said. Therefore, it is important to clearly understand what these numbers signify. They represent the number of Church members, but they do not represent activity rates. The Church does not remove an individualâ??s name from its membership rolls based on inactivity.

Like other faiths, the Church has varying degrees of growth among its members throughout the world. For example, the Church has relatively slow growth in Northern Europe, where many other churches are declining. It has steady and manageable growth in the United States, and is expanding rapidly in Africa, the Philippines, and South America.

For decades the Church has identified growth as its single greatest challenge. The Church has a lay ministry, and experience has shown that new members are more likely to slide into inactivity when they are not offered opportunities to serve or when they feel inadequate to accept a position.

President Gordon B. Hinckley has emphasized how essential it is that new membersâ?? involvement not end after baptism and confirmation. â??The challenge now is greater than it has ever been because the number of converts is greater than we have ever before known. â?¦ I plead with you â?¦ I ask of you, each of you, to become a part of this great effort. Every convert is precious. Every convert is a son or daughter of God. Every convert is a great and serious responsibility. â?¦ In my view nothing is of greater importanceâ? (â??Converts and Young Men,â? Ensign, May 1997, 48).

In the Philippines, where many people are being baptized, mission presidents and local Church leaders aim to ensure that potential converts fully understand the commitment they make at baptism. â??We are more concerned with personal conversion than the number of baptisms and confirmations,â? said Elder D. Rex Gerratt, President of the Philippines Area. â??The stronger our converts, the stronger our congregations. The stronger the Church is, the more it will be able to bless the people and strengthen the families of this country.â?

In the Philippines, while convert baptisms per missionary have increased in each of the last three years, activity rates of new converts are also on the rise.

The Church has also refined its missionary program to aid in the retention of converts. Potential missionaries are held to a higher standard to qualify for missionary service, and in 2004 the inspired missionary training publication, Preach My Gospel, was instituted to help missionaries focus on more comprehensive and personalized teaching of potential converts. The goal is stronger commitment from newly baptized members because of a deeper conversion to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

In addition to membership, the Churchâ??s increase in meetinghouses also indicates growth. There are currently 8,254 meetinghouses internationally, which shows a 10 percent growth rate over the past five years. That trend is also reflected in the United States, where there are 6,361 meetinghousesâ??or a 9.6 percent growth rate for the same time period. Many of these meetinghouses accommodate several congregations.

â??Ultimately, the strength of the Church is really measured by the devotion and commitment of its members,â? said Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. â??The Lord has never given us a mandate to be the biggest Churchâ??in fact, He has said our numbers will be comparatively fewâ??but He has asked that we commit ourselves to living and sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ.â?

I highlighted some of the more interesting parts of the article.